Diplomat: Pakistan holding up some US visas

[Patriot]

It's unto Parliament to reject the bill.PA cannot not reject bill ..there was only one way to do that and that was to plan Coup against the government which PA is not interested in.The K-L bill is mainly civillian aid and has nothing much do to with PA funds which is separate from K-L bill and the Military Chief's are still decided by government. (Not by army..)

 

[Bushy]

That is exactly what I am asking, Patriot.

(a)Should the Pakistani Army not go for a coup to get rid of an (allegedly) extremely corrupt and traitorous civilian government that is harming the state of Pakistan continuously than (b) just watch its self being stripped of its finances and rights as the first step in the process of making it eternally weak?

It has already chose the option (a), however, to me it seems the only option with a solution is the option (b).

 

[Patriot]

I doubt it can plan coup when there is war in country.Besides Musharraf made PA reputation very very bad so if they had taken coup they would have met with a lot of pressure from Pakistani.Now PA public support is way up because it is not disturbing the civilians and Pakistanis understand PA cannot blamed for the current problems (Corruption, NRO etc..).Democracy is the way to go..and i doubt General Kiyani would ever think about coup .He is very professional general.Pakistan Army is not being stripped of finances..Where did you get that from?The Defence Budget is being given to them and they're also getting war funding..

 

[Bushy]

I doubt it can plan coup when there is war in country.Besides Musharraf made PA reputation very very bad so if they had taken coup they would have met with a lot of pressure from Pakistani.Now PA public support is way up because it is not disturbing the civilians and Pakistanis understand PA cannot blamed for the current problems (Corruption, NRO etc..).Democracy is the way to go..and i doubt General Kiyani would ever think about coup .He is very professional general.Pakistan Army is not being stripped of finances..Where did you get that from?The Defence Budget is being given to them and they're also getting war funding..

If the financial supply to the PA is not getting affected, then why is the PA so much against the KL Bill? What is wrong in having that money be used by a civilian government for civilian purposes, why be so opposed to it?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If the financial supply to the PA is not getting affected, then why is the PA so much against the KL Bill? What is wrong in having that money be used by a civilian government for civilian purposes, why be so opposed to it?

The PA is not opposed to the 'civilian aid being used for civilian purposes', what gave you that idea? As I pointed out before, the KLL categorizes aid into two groups - civilian aid and military aid. The conditions on promotions, defence budget etc. are all applicable on the military aid only, not on the civilian aid. Conditions on accountability of the use of funds I believe apply on both sets of aid (which is fine since it might keep our politicians honest).

The PA(and others in Pakistan) objected to the non-accountability conditions on the military aid because they were seen as unnecessary interference and an attempt to micromanage Pakistani internal affairs. For example if the conditions had merely stipulated that the US was making military aid conditional to the continuation of a democratic government, then it made sense and I agree. The US has a right to condition aid to a democratic government (though it has no problems giving aid to a dictatorship in Egypt and Jordan).

However, it is none of the US's business how Pakistani military promotions take place, what influence the military has on the defence budget or on foreign policy - those are all issues that Pakistan has to figure out internally, because every country is different.

 

[kidwaibhai]

I think denying American officials visas is a stupid idea. we need to understand that this for the benefit of Pakistan. Not allowing Mechanics to come into Pakistan for the helicopters that we need desperately i think this is a stupid move by our government officials. Lets hope these things are handled soon and forthrightly.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I think denying American officials visas is a stupid idea. we need to understand that this for the benefit of Pakistan. Not allowing Mechanics to come into Pakistan for the helicopters that we need desperately i think this is a stupid move by our government officials. Lets hope these things are handled soon and forthrightly.

Don't believe on everything the Americans say that who is going to come and who is not or who are not being given the Visas.

If 100 of them are coming, 10 may be the mechanics not the other 90, and that 90 is the real problem as we don't know who they really are and for what they are coming.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think denying American officials visas is a stupid idea. we need to understand that this for the benefit of Pakistan. Not allowing Mechanics to come into Pakistan for the helicopters that we need desperately i think this is a stupid move by our government officials. Lets hope these things are handled soon and forthrightly.

I second TK - Pakistan would not be deliberately holding up Mechanics etc.

The Americans are very effective at propaganda and using these 'anonymous leaks' to advance the POV that the US establishment wants advanced.

 

[Bushy]

The PA is not opposed to the 'civilian aid being used for civilian purposes', what gave you that idea? As I pointed out before, the KLL categorizes aid into two groups - civilian aid and military aid. The conditions on promotions, defence budget etc. are all applicable on the military aid only, not on the civilian aid. Conditions on accountability of the use of funds I believe apply on both sets of aid (which is fine since it might keep our politicians honest).

The PA(and others in Pakistan) objected to the non-accountability conditions on the military aid because they were seen as unnecessary interference and an attempt to micromanage Pakistani internal affairs. For example if the conditions had merely stipulated that the US was making military aid conditional to the continuation of a democratic government, then it made sense and I agree. The US has a right to condition aid to a democratic government (though it has no problems giving aid to a dictatorship in Egypt and Jordan).

However, it is none of the US's business how Pakistani military promotions take place, what influence the military has on the defence budget or on foreign policy - those are all issues that Pakistan has to figure out internally, because every country is different.

Thanks man, for taking time to explain that bit to me. Here's what I understand of it:

Honestly speaking, I have no idea how the system of promotions works there. So what I want to know is, what happens if the Army outrightly refuses to consider the recommendations of the civilian government when it comes to the promotions on top level? I mean they can refuse it and not break any law right?

So, if the Army is not strictly bound to consider the recommendations of the civilian government relating to the promotions on top level, then whatever money Zardari takes, whatever contract he signs, should be null and void when it comes to the Army. I mean, it is not like I can sign a contract on your behalf; two completely different entities. I hope you understand what I mean here.

 

[S-2]

"If 100 of them are coming, 10 may be the mechanics not the other 90, and that 90 is the real problem as we don't know who they really are and for what they are coming."

So you throw the baby out with the bathwater? This harassment only hurts yourselves by making our work in Pakistan far more difficult.

Pakistan Reported To Be Harassing U.S. Diplomats- NYT Dec. 16, 2009

I hope this nonsense ceases soon.

Thanks.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Thanks man, for taking time to explain that bit to me. Here's what I understand of it:

Honestly speaking, I have no idea how the system of promotions works there. So what I want to know is, what happens if the Army outrightly refuses to consider the recommendations of the civilian government when it comes to the promotions on top level? I mean they can refuse it and not break any law right?

So, if the Army is not strictly bound to consider the recommendations of the civilian government relating to the promotions on top level, then whatever money Zardari takes, whatever contract he signs, should be null and void when it comes to the Army. I mean, it is not like I can sign a contract on your behalf; two completely different entities. I hope you understand what I mean here.

The only recommendation rather final selection that the civilian govt can do is to the posts of COAS & DG ISI, rest to the ranks of Lt Generals the army has its own system of promotions with no interference f.rom anyone else, i believe same case in Indian Army too. What the US wanted was to make sure that above Brigadier ranks, the generals are made as per their wishes and have civilian govt influence in such decisions so that US can play its role through its stooges in the civilian setup. Plus the US wanted access to our defence budget details, which would have made them ask questions and know what money is going where and would have given an insight into our nuclear program too. Plus they needed a full insight in the overall budget too. Plus few other things like that.

 

[Rafael]

"If 100 of them are coming, 10 may be the mechanics not the other 90, and that 90 is the real problem as we don't know who they really are and for what they are coming."

So you throw the baby out with the bathwater? This harassment only hurts yourselves by making our work in Pakistan far more difficult.

Pakistan Reported To Be Harassing U.S. Diplomats- NYT Dec. 16, 2009

I hope this nonsense ceases soon.

Thanks.

And what about american harassing our police men and other security agencies and mocking our law on daily basis?

Americans continue mocking Pakistani law | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

I hope this nonsense ceases soon!

 

[PAFAce]

If the Americans can refuse to give my grandmother a visiting visa without providing legitimate reasons (like she is some 65 year old female terrorist), what right to they have to expect us to offer them the opportunity to come into our country without due process, especially when they obviousl have very little respect for our laws, cultures and actions.

Heck, I would say, we're too liberal when it comes to this stuff. The size of the official American contingent on Pakistani soil should be limited, and every man must undergo a background check. All the information should be compiled and given to the intelligence organizations and local law enforcements.

With the arrest of American terrorists in Pakistan, the case for this is much more strong.

"If 100 of them are coming, 10 may be the mechanics not the other 90, and that 90 is the real problem as we don't know who they really are and for what they are coming."

So you throw the baby out with the bathwater? This harassment only hurts yourselves by making our work in Pakistan far more difficult.

Pakistan Reported To Be Harassing U.S. Diplomats- NYT Dec. 16, 2009

I hope this nonsense ceases soon.

Thanks.

Well, maybe we don't like the direction "your work" is going in. Maybe we see it as violating or undermining, to an extent, our interests. Would the US allow Pakistani embassy workers the freedoms afforded to yours in Pakistan? I mean, I thought "co-operation" was a two-way street.

I agree, that nonsense must stop, but this nonsense should stop as well.

US vehicles stopped at check-post
"Those on board, said to be Americans, however did not let police search the black Land Cruisers... They asked the riders to come out of the vehicles for checking but they refused."

Not cooperating with local law enforcement, causing a traffic blockade, driving vehicles without identification plates; all this makes our work a lot more difficult as well. This has happened on more than one occasion, sometimes with concealed weapons recovered from the passengers. I hate to imagine what would happen if Hussain Haqqani refused to "cooperate with law enforcement personnel" on one of his trips, while carrying a hand-gun.

One of these days there will be a scuffle, or worse, between some arrogant American official and the police, it only seems inevitable. I can only imagine the headlines on Fox News after that.

 

[TaimiKhan]

"If 100 of them are coming, 10 may be the mechanics not the other 90, and that 90 is the real problem as we don't know who they really are and for what they are coming."

So you throw the baby out with the bathwater? This harassment only hurts yourselves by making our work in Pakistan far more difficult.

Pakistan Reported To Be Harassing U.S. Diplomats- NYT Dec. 16, 2009

I hope this nonsense ceases soon.

Thanks.

This kind of sensible action was long over due, so good that atleast it has happened now and a constant check be kept on them throughout Pakistan and their vehicles be checked wherever they are found doing suspicious activities and not given a free hand.

The guys with clear cut credentials should be let through, but those with ambiguity should be rejected or asked to prove their right credentials and still when they are here, a check be kept on them.

Americans should not be trusted in here.

 

[Bushy]

The only recommendation rather final selection that the civilian govt can do is to the posts of COAS & DG ISI, rest to the ranks of Lt Generals the army has its own system of promotions with no interference f.rom anyone else, i believe same case in Indian Army too. What the US wanted was to make sure that above Brigadier ranks, the generals are made as per their wishes and have civilian govt influence in such decisions so that US can play its role through its stooges in the civilian setup. Plus the US wanted access to our defence budget details, which would have made them ask questions and know what money is going where and would have given an insight into our nuclear program too. Plus they needed a full insight in the overall budget too. Plus few other things like that.

So essentially the US wanted some undesirable changes in the constitution of Pakistan. Thanks man, I am getting the picture now.