Did India really 've OFFENSIVE doctrines??

[Levina]

It all started when admin Horus called Indian doctrines offensive while maintaining that our neighbor has always been mellifluous and had defensive doctrines.As discussing Op-Brasstacks and Op-Parakram was off topic on another thread I was asked to create a new thread.

Open up a new thread. I won't respond to this anymore. Its off topic
.

India's defense budget is aimed at military power projection capabilities with an offensive doctrine, while Pakistan's defense budget is aimed at a defensive doctrine.
We don't. Pakistan and India are working in a similar nuclear yield capacity. Both states have identical numbers of warheads, so i don't see the fuss here.

Ignoratio elenchi!!

• Let me remind you that we have a "no first use policy" when it comes to nuclear arsenal.But Pakistan has been vague, Pakistan has stated that it may use its nuclear arsenal under a number of different circumstances including to fend off a conventional attack and even if India tries to strangle it economically.
• wasn't it the Pakistani tribesmen and militants who made it to Baramulla sector and ran amok?Kashmir (region, Indian subcontinent) :: The Kashmir problem -- Encyclopedia Britannica
• Or lets take Kargil, by a Pakistani officer 's confession (Capt.Sambal,8 Northern light Infantry) even the highest ranking officers of PA were aware of the infiltration.

And then you came up with your own version of Sunderji doctrine

Come again - Indira Gandhi planned a mass invasion of Pakistan | CIA Records

which was later debunked here..
Indian Army News & Discussions | Page 84

I dont mind you debunking shibboleth's theories on Pakistan's defence budget but pls dont come up with statements which 've blunders of gargantuan proportions blaming things on India..If India aimed at revanchism then it would not 've maintained its stance that LOC should be made IB.

All Pakistani missiles are called Hatf - XXX - The nickname is given to make it look unique.

I pointed at WHY it was named Ghauri.

I am talking about a conventional war. Pakistan's doctrine of warfare is not offensive but defensive under the theory of 'active effective deterrence', while India's past doctrines and the present one are inherently aimed at power projection which is an offensive doctrine.

India's past doctrine??
which one?? Sunderji ,is it??
I've already proved you wrong on that.

The Op Brasstacks is also a reflection of India's past offensive doctrines.

so what was Op Brass Tacks??
Brasstacks crises was nothing but accidental crises, caused by Pakistan's misinterpretation.The magnitude and large scale direction of the exercise led to Pakistan fears that India was displaying an overwhelming conventional superiority and was planning to invade Pakistan, which came out of the lessons from '71 winter war.
Was India being offensive by not even firing a shot???
To prove its intentions were peaceful during the exercise, India took the unusual step of inviting diplomats and journalists to observe the operation separately. AFAIK even a Pakistani diplomat was invited.

ON INDIA'S BORDER, A HUGE MOCK WAR - New York Times

The Op Parakram was also a manifestation of India's offensive doctrine so was India's decision to escalate 1965 war by invading Lahore then later East Pakistan.

One,Operation Parakram was launched in the wake of the December 13, 2001 terrorist attack on Parliament and the 10 month deployment ended without a conflict.
Two,Op-Parakram had 3 aims mobilising the army to the border — defeating cross border terrorism without conflict,containing the national mood to “teach Pak a lesson” and in the case of war,degrading the neighbouring nation’s war fighting capabilities.
Three,after US and other western governments stepped in with diplomatic manoeuvres General Musharraf made an ashen faced commitment in a nationally telecast speech on January 12, 2002, that Pakistan “will not permit any terrorist activity from its soil” and then India backed-off.
Again was India being offensive here?

Please don't waste my time unless you have something i haven't read already.

I wasnt expecting you to accept it with alacrity.You could 've avoided this debate had you not been polemic about India in your article.You should've restricted it to debunking the myths ONLY.


continued from this thread


*** Trolls not invited but contributors 're welcome***

 

[Kompromat]

It all started when admin Horus called Indian doctrines offensive while maintaining that our neighbor has always been mellifluous and had defensive doctrines.As discussing Op-Brastacks and Op-Parakram was off topic on another thread I was asked to create a new thread.



Ignoratio elenchi!!

• Let me remind you that we have a "no first use policy" when it comes to nuclear arsenal.But Pakistan has been vague, Pakistan has stated that it may use its nuclear arsenal under a number of different circumstances including to fend off a conventional attack and even if India tries to strangle it economically.
• wasn't it the Pakistani tribesmen and militants who made it to Baramulla sector and ran amok?Kashmir (region, Indian subcontinent) :: The Kashmir problem -- Encyclopedia Britannica
• Or lets take Kargil, by a Pakistani officer 's confession (Capt.Sambal,8 Northern light Infantry) even the highest ranking officers of PA were aware of the infiltration.

And then you came up with your own version of Sunderji doctrine

which was later debunked here..
Indian Army News & Discussions | Page 84

I dont mind you debunking shibboleth's theories on Pakistan's defence budget but pls dont come up with statements which 've blunders of gargantuan proportions blaming things on India..If India aimed at revanchism then it would not 've maintained its stance that LOC should be made IB.


I pointed at WHY it was named Ghauri.


India's past doctrine??
which one?? Sunderji ,is it??
I've already proven you wrong on that.


so what was Op Brass Tacks??
Brasstacks crises was nothing but accidental crises, caused by Pakistan's misinterpretation.The magnitude and large scale direction of the exercise led to Pakistan fears that India was displaying an overwhelming conventional superiority and was planning to invade Pakistan, which came out of the lessons from '71 winter war.
Was India being offensive by not even firing a shot???
To prove its intentions were peaceful during the exercise, India took the unusual step of inviting diplomats and journalists to observe the operation separately. AFAIK even a Pakistani diplomat was invited.

ON INDIA'S BORDER, A HUGE MOCK WAR - New York Times


One,Operation Parakram was launched in the wake of the December 13, 2001 terrorist attack on Parliament and the 10 month deployment ended without a conflict.
Two,Op-Parakram had 3 aims mobilising the army to the border — defeating cross border terrorism without conflict,containing the national mood to “teach Pak a lesson” and in the case of war,degrading the neighbouring nation’s war fighting capabilities.
Three,after US and other western governments stepped in with diplomatic manoeuvres General Musharraf made an ashen faced commitment in a nationally telecast speech on January 12, 2002, that Pakistan “will not permit any terrorist activity from its soil” and then India backed-off.
Again was India being offensive here?


I wasnt expecting you to accept it with alacrity.You could 've avoided this debate had you not been polemic about India in your article.You should've restricted it to debunking the myths ONLY.


continued from this thread


*** Trolls not invited***

Lets begin by answering this question.

Why does the Indian Army need 'Strike Corps'?
Why does the IAF maintain majority of its Air Superiority and Ground Attack assets at its 30 FABs?
Why does IN need Aircraft Carriers which are essentially power projection weapon?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

... while maintaining that our neighbor has always been mellifluous and had defensive doctrines....

Mellifluous.

 

[Levina]

Lets begin by answering this question.

Why does the Indian Army need 'Strike Corps'?
Why does the IAF maintain majority of its Air Superiority and Ground Attack assets at its 30 FABs?
Why does IN need Aircraft Carriers which are essentially power projection weapon?

nope...my thread..my rules.
Lets start where you left...Op-Brasstacks and Op-Parakram and India being offensive.

 

[l'ingénieur]

Horus is a legend. In Horus I believe.

 

[Kompromat]

nope...my thread..my rules.
Lets start where you left...Op-Brasstacks and Op-Parakram and India being offensive.

If full scale military buildup that too unilaterally is not an offensive posture then i don't know WHAT is.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

If full scale military buildup that too unilaterally is not an offensive posture then i don't know WHAT is.

Well said

/thread

 

[Levina]

If full scale military buildup that too unilaterally is not an offensive posture then i don't know WHAT is.

As I told you already that it was an exercise and India proved its intentions to be peaceful by inviting diplomats and journalists(incld from Pakistan).

I was looking forward to detailed replies and not one liners.

If you're not interested in continuing this debate then you can close this thread.

 

[Kompromat]

As I told you already that it was an exercise and India proved its intentions to be peaceful by inviting diplomats and journalists(incld from Pakistan).

I was looking forward to detailed replies and not one liners.

If you're not interested in continuing this debate then you can close this thread.

Operation Brasstacks was only cancelled when Zia threatened to turn Delhi into a radioactive dump right on Rajive's face. If you seriously think that it was just an 'exercise' then i have nothing more to add. IA's high ranking officers have come out and refuted this silly notion. I posted an article on this subject.

War games or War? | The plot behind Operation Brasstacks

@levina

Lets see what you make of this.

"Prime Minister Gandhi told Union Cabinet that apart from liberating Bangladesh, India intended to take over a strategically important part of the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and go for the total annihilation of Pakistan's armed forces so that Pakistan "never attempts to challenge India in the future."

Indira Gandhi planned a mass invasion of Pakistan | CIA Records

 

[Sliver]

An interesting thread, so if I get @Horus right, (and after reading up on military build up on the operation brass tacks),
The whole operation was called off after gen zia threatened a nuclear strike on Delhi. were the dates of the operation published before this "threat" by Gen Zia?

 

[Levina]

Operation Brasstacks was only cancelled when Zia threatened to turn Delhi into a radioactive dump right on his face. If you seriously think that it was just an 'exercise' than i have nothing more to add. IA's high ranking officers have come out and refuted that notion. I posted an article on this subject.

tell me about it ...


About the radioactive dump.......
I remember that during the heightened crisis atmosphere Pakistan's premier nuclear scientist Abdul Qadir Khan revealed in a March 1987 interview that Pakistan had manufactured a nuclear bomb. Although Khan later retracted his statement, India stated that the disclosure was "forcing us to review our option."


About Gen Zia..
Gen Ziaul Haq travelled to India in feb 1987 under the pretense of watching a cricket match where he held talks with the Indian leadership to diffuse the crisis. These talks were then followed up by additional talk in Islamabad between Feb 27 and Mar 2 and then both sides agreed to a phased troop withdrawal.

when did Gen.Zia threaten India???

@levina

Lets see what you make of this.

"Prime Minister Gandhi told Union Cabinet that apart from liberating Bangladesh, India intended to take over a strategically important part of the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and go for the total annihilation of Pakistan's armed forces so that Pakistan "never attempts to challenge India in the future."

Indira Gandhi planned a mass invasion of Pakistan | CIA Records

There's some serious misinterpretation.
It was HENRY KISSKNGER who had suggested that USSR 'd a revisionist and expansionist agenda behind "ostensibly" supporting India to attack West PAKISTAN. But his claim didnot have much proof and nor logic.
On dec 8,1971 CIA reported that India had plans to attack Azad kashmir and attack Pak armour and Air Force.

1) It was NOT a reliable report.It did NOT find many takers in AMERICA itself." NIXON and KISSINGER were virtually alone in US to support this claim" is what Christopher Van Hollen had to say about it.
(Christopher Van Hollen- member of democratic party,born in Karachi.)

2) CIA itself had given low priority to this as GEN.Westmoreland and others had argued that INDIA would face logistic obstacles in transferring its military from EAST TO WEST (Indian military was fighting in "East" Pakistan in those days).


2) The fact that Kashmir was a subject of long standing dispute between India and Pakistan and also that "West" Pakistan was not identical to Kashmir. And attack on Kashmir would be thwarted by India and that would not have surprised anyone.

3) INDIA had declared a unilateral ceasefire as soon as it was victorious in East. so this theory gets another thumbs down as it didnot have sufficient proof.

4) AMERICA knew it very well that even IF India had such plans that there would be ample time and clear signals to give a WARNING.

5) USSR was always clear that it's leverage would be to deter Chinese and American interference in East and not at attacking Pakistan.
And it was USSR's support that weakened Pakistan.
And after the success of "East" even USSR had declared ceasefire.
Ergo nowhere did India or USSR show any intention of attacking West Pakistan...that is unless Pak intended to attack Kashmir.

you can read Perceptions and behaviour of Soviet foreign Policy by Richard Herrman for more details.

An interesting thread, so if I get @Horus right, (and after reading up on military build up on the operation brass tacks),
The whole operation was called off after gen zia threatened a nuclear strike on Delhi. were the dates of the operation published before this "threat" by Gen Zia?

I dont know if Gen Zia threatened India but he did visit India to watch a cricket match and solve the issue.

 

[Kompromat]

An interesting thread, so if I get @Horus right, (and after reading up on military build up on the operation brass tacks),
The whole operation was called off after gen zia threatened a nuclear strike on Delhi. were the dates of the operation published before this "threat" by Gen Zia?

U-2 Flights from Peshawar were carrying out AirInt missions over Afghanistan and Soviet Union. Just as the Indian PM Rajiv Gandhi order the mobilisation the Soviet Army was making headway along the bordering provinces with Pakistan. Both US and Pakistan were worried that USSR and India both allies were working in synch and had planned to invade Pakistan in coordination which would've lead to the US forces intervening. As the Indian soldiers massed on our border the President Zia left for a Cricket match in Chennai India. He landed in Delhi and was received by a cold Rajiv. Zia told him to pull back or face nuclear attack. It was an empty threat as Pakistan did have nukes then but they weren't miniaturized into a weapon design small enough to be delivered by the Mirage or F-16 aircraft. Rajiv ducked and ordered the unilateral withdrawal.

Situation was very tense as this Indian propaganda poster depicts.

 

[Levina]

Situation was very tense as this Indian propaganda poster depicts.

Indeed the situation was tense.
But it all began when Pakistan misunderstood India's exercise to be an attack. And nowhere have you proved that India was being offensive.
Had India been offensive then NO Pakistani Gen would've visited India..it would 've ended in another war.

 

[Sliver]

The doctrine, known as Cold Start, deviated from the defence posture that India’s military had employed since independence in 1947. “The goal of this limited war doctrine is to establish the capacity to launch a retaliatory conventional strike against Pakistan that would inflict significant harm on the Pakistan Army before the international community could intercede, and at the same time, pursue narrow enough aims to deny Islamabad a justification to escalate the clash to the nuclear level."

The above from " Ladwig, Walter (Winter 2007–08). "A Cold Start for Hot Wars?: The Indian Army's New Limited War Doctrine". International Security 32 (3): pp. 158–190, 159. doi:10.1162/isec.2008.32.3.158."

key word: "Retaliatory" posture

 

[Levina]

The doctrine, known as Cold Start, deviated from the defence posture that India’s military had employed since independence in 1947. “The goal of this limited war doctrine is to establish the capacity to launch a retaliatory conventional strike against Pakistan that would inflict significant harm on the Pakistan Army before the international community could intercede, and at the same time, pursue narrow enough aims to deny Islamabad a justification to escalate the clash to the nuclear level."

The above from " Ladwig, Walter (Winter 2007–08). "A Cold Start for Hot Wars?: The Indian Army's New Limited War Doctrine". International Security 32 (3): pp. 158–190, 159. doi:10.1162/isec.2008.32.3.158."

key word: "Retaliatory" posture

Thank you for that one ...and yes the word RETALIATORY does ring a toc sin's ding.

FYI- @Horus