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Dholavira- The zenith of Harappan town planning!

Indus era 8,000 years old, not 5,500; ended because of weaker monsoon

493553-indusedited.jpg


KOLKATA: It may be time to rewrite history textbooks. Scientists from IIT-Kharagpurand Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) have uncovered evidence that the Indus Valley Civilization is at least 8,000 years old, and not 5,500 years old, taking root well before the Egyptian (7000BC to 3000BC) and Mesopotamian (6500BC to 3100BC) civilizations. What's more, the researchers have found evidence of a pre-Harappan civilization that existed for at least 1,000 years before this.

The discovery, published in the prestigious 'Nature' journal on May 25, may force a global rethink on the timelines of the so-called 'cradles of civilization'. The scientists believe they also know why the civilization ended about 3,000 years ago — climate change.

"We have recovered perhaps the oldest pottery from the civilization. We used a technique called 'optically stimulated luminescence' to date pottery shards of the Early Mature Harappan time to nearly 6,000 years ago and the cultural levels of pre-Harappan Hakra phase as far back as 8,000 years," said Anindya Sarkar, head of the department of geology and geophysics at IIT-Kgp.

The team had actually set out to prove that the civilization proliferated to other Indian sites like Bhirrana and Rakhigarrhi in Haryana, apart from the known locations of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro in Pakistan and Lothal, Dholavira and Kalibangan in India. They took their dig to an unexplored site, Bhirrana — and ended up unearthing something much bigger. The excavation also yielded large quantities of animal remains like bones, teeth, horn cores of cow, goat, deer and antelope, which were put through Carbon 14 analysis to decipher antiquity and the climatic conditions in which the civilization flourished, said Arati Deshpande Mukherjee of Deccan College, which helped analyse the finds along with Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad.

The researchers believe that the Indus Valley Civilization spread over a vast expanse of India — stretching to the banks of the now "lost" Saraswati river or the Ghaggar-Hakra river - but this has not been studied enough because what we know so far is based on British excavations. "At the excavation sites, we saw preservation of all cultural levels right from the pre-Indus Valley Civilization phase (9000-8000 BC) through what we have categorised as Early Harappan (8000-7000BC) to the Mature Harappan times," said Sarkar.

While the earlier phases were represented by pastoral and early village farming communities, the mature Harappan settlements were highly urbanised with organised cities, and a much developed material and craft culture. They also had regular trade with Arabia and Mesopotamia. The Late Harappan phase witnessed large-scale de-urbanisation, drop in population, abandonment of established settlements, lack of basic amenities, violence and even the disappearance of the Harappan script, the researchers say.

"We analysed the oxygen isotope composition in the bone and tooth phosphates of these remains to unravel the climate pattern. The oxygen isotope in mammal bones and teeth preserve the signature of ancient meteoric water and in turn the intensity of monsoon rainfall. Our study shows that the pre-Harappan humans started inhabiting this area along the Ghaggar-Hakra rivers in a climate that was favourable for human settlement and agriculture. The monsoon was much stronger between 9000 years and 7000 years from now and probably fed these rivers making them mightier with vast floodplains," explained Deshpande Mukherjee.

They took their dig to an unexplored site, Bhirrana — and ended up unearthing something much bigger. The excavation also yielded large quantities of animal remains like bones, teeth, horn cores of cow, goat, deer and antelope, which were put through Carbon 14 analysis to decipher antiquity and the climatic conditions in which the civilization flourished, said Arati Deshpande Mukherjee of Deccan College, which helped analyse the finds along with Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad.




The researchers believe that the Indus Valley Civilization spread over a vast expanse of India — stretching to the banks of the now "lost" Saraswati river or the Ghaggar-Hakra river — but this has not been studied enough because what we know so far is based on British excavations. "At the excavation sites, we saw preservation of all cultural levels right from the pre-Indus Valley Civilisation phase (9,000-8,000 years ago) through what we have categorised as Early Harappan (8,000-7,000 years ago) to the Mature Harappan times," said Sarkar.


The late Harappan phase witnessed large-scale de-urbanisation, drop in population, abandonment of established settlements, violence and even the disappearance of the Harappan script, the researchers say. The study revealed that monsoon started weakening 7,000 years ago but, surprisingly, the civilization did not disappear.


The Indus Valley people were very resolute and flexible and continued to evolve even in the face of declining monsoon. The people shifted their crop patterns from large-grained cereals like wheat and barley during the early part of intensified monsoon to drought-resistant species like rice in the latter part. As the yield diminished, the organised large storage system of the Mature Harappan period gave way to more individual household-based crop processing and storage systems that acted as a catalyst for the de-urbanisation of the civilization rather than an abrupt collapse, they say.

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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...se-of-weaker-monsoon/articleshow/52485332.cms

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indusmap.gif

@Levina @scorpionx @Kaptaan @Armstrong @WAJsal
 
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Indus era 8,000 years old, not 5,500; ended because of weaker monsoon

View attachment 307695

KOLKATA: It may be time to rewrite history textbooks. Scientists from IIT-Kharagpurand Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) have uncovered evidence that the Indus Valley Civilization is at least 8,000 years old, and not 5,500 years old, taking root well before the Egyptian (7000BC to 3000BC) and Mesopotamian (6500BC to 3100BC) civilizations. What's more, the researchers have found evidence of a pre-Harappan civilization that existed for at least 1,000 years before this.

The discovery, published in the prestigious 'Nature' journal on May 25, may force a global rethink on the timelines of the so-called 'cradles of civilization'. The scientists believe they also know why the civilization ended about 3,000 years ago — climate change.

"We have recovered perhaps the oldest pottery from the civilization. We used a technique called 'optically stimulated luminescence' to date pottery shards of the Early Mature Harappan time to nearly 6,000 years ago and the cultural levels of pre-Harappan Hakra phase as far back as 8,000 years," said Anindya Sarkar, head of the department of geology and geophysics at IIT-Kgp.

The team had actually set out to prove that the civilization proliferated to other Indian sites like Bhirrana and Rakhigarrhi in Haryana, apart from the known locations of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro in Pakistan and Lothal, Dholavira and Kalibangan in India. They took their dig to an unexplored site, Bhirrana — and ended up unearthing something much bigger. The excavation also yielded large quantities of animal remains like bones, teeth, horn cores of cow, goat, deer and antelope, which were put through Carbon 14 analysis to decipher antiquity and the climatic conditions in which the civilization flourished, said Arati Deshpande Mukherjee of Deccan College, which helped analyse the finds along with Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad.

The researchers believe that the Indus Valley Civilization spread over a vast expanse of India — stretching to the banks of the now "lost" Saraswati river or the Ghaggar-Hakra river - but this has not been studied enough because what we know so far is based on British excavations. "At the excavation sites, we saw preservation of all cultural levels right from the pre-Indus Valley Civilization phase (9000-8000 BC) through what we have categorised as Early Harappan (8000-7000BC) to the Mature Harappan times," said Sarkar.

While the earlier phases were represented by pastoral and early village farming communities, the mature Harappan settlements were highly urbanised with organised cities, and a much developed material and craft culture. They also had regular trade with Arabia and Mesopotamia. The Late Harappan phase witnessed large-scale de-urbanisation, drop in population, abandonment of established settlements, lack of basic amenities, violence and even the disappearance of the Harappan script, the researchers say.

"We analysed the oxygen isotope composition in the bone and tooth phosphates of these remains to unravel the climate pattern. The oxygen isotope in mammal bones and teeth preserve the signature of ancient meteoric water and in turn the intensity of monsoon rainfall. Our study shows that the pre-Harappan humans started inhabiting this area along the Ghaggar-Hakra rivers in a climate that was favourable for human settlement and agriculture. The monsoon was much stronger between 9000 years and 7000 years from now and probably fed these rivers making them mightier with vast floodplains," explained Deshpande Mukherjee.

They took their dig to an unexplored site, Bhirrana — and ended up unearthing something much bigger. The excavation also yielded large quantities of animal remains like bones, teeth, horn cores of cow, goat, deer and antelope, which were put through Carbon 14 analysis to decipher antiquity and the climatic conditions in which the civilization flourished, said Arati Deshpande Mukherjee of Deccan College, which helped analyse the finds along with Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad.




The researchers believe that the Indus Valley Civilization spread over a vast expanse of India — stretching to the banks of the now "lost" Saraswati river or the Ghaggar-Hakra river — but this has not been studied enough because what we know so far is based on British excavations. "At the excavation sites, we saw preservation of all cultural levels right from the pre-Indus Valley Civilisation phase (9,000-8,000 years ago) through what we have categorised as Early Harappan (8,000-7,000 years ago) to the Mature Harappan times," said Sarkar.


The late Harappan phase witnessed large-scale de-urbanisation, drop in population, abandonment of established settlements, violence and even the disappearance of the Harappan script, the researchers say. The study revealed that monsoon started weakening 7,000 years ago but, surprisingly, the civilization did not disappear.


The Indus Valley people were very resolute and flexible and continued to evolve even in the face of declining monsoon. The people shifted their crop patterns from large-grained cereals like wheat and barley during the early part of intensified monsoon to drought-resistant species like rice in the latter part. As the yield diminished, the organised large storage system of the Mature Harappan period gave way to more individual household-based crop processing and storage systems that acted as a catalyst for the de-urbanisation of the civilization rather than an abrupt collapse, they say.

View attachment 307696

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...se-of-weaker-monsoon/articleshow/52485332.cms


@Levina @scorpionx @Kaptaan @Armstrong @WAJsal
Thanks.
I had read somewhere that along with SSC in India other civilisations in different parts of the world like that in Syria had also faced drought around the same time.
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posting the article...

Two-hundred-year drought doomed Indus Valley Civilization
Monsoon hiatus that began 4,200 years ago parallels dry spell that led civilizations to collapse in other regions.

03 March 2014




european pressphoto agency/Alamy

The ruins of the ancient city of Harappa, now in Pakistan, one of the major centres of a civilization that disappeared probably because of climatic upheaval.

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The decline of Bronze-Age civilizations in Egypt, Greece and Mesopotamia has been attributed to a long-term drought that began around 2000 bc. Now palaeoclimatologists propose that a similar fate was followed by the enigmatic Indus Valley Civilization, at about the same time. Based on isotope data from the sediment of an ancient lake, the researchers suggest that the monsoon cycle, which is vital to the livelihood of all of South Asia, essentially stopped there for as long as two centuries.

TPKiller.jpg

The Indus Valley, in present Pakistan and northwest India, was home to a civilization also known as the Harappan Civilization. It was characterized by large, well-planned cities with advanced municipal sanitation systems and a script that has never been deciphered. But the Harappans seemed to slowly lose their urban cohesion, and their cities were gradually abandoned.

The link between this gradual decline and climate has been tenuous because of a dearth of climate records from the region. So Yama Dixit, a palaeoclimatologist at the University of Cambridge, UK, and her colleagues examined sediments from Kotla Dahar, an ancient lake near the northeastern edge of the Indus Valley area in Haryana, India, that still seasonally floods.

The team assigned ages to sediment layers using radiocarbon dating of organic matter. In various layers, they collected the preserved shells of tiny lake snails (Melanoides tuberculata), which are made of a form of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) called aragonite. The team also looked at the oxygen in the argonite molecules, counting the ratio of the rare oxygen-18 isotope to the more prevalent oxygen-16.

Two-hundred-year hiatus
Kotla Dahar is a closed basin, filled only by rain and runoff and without outlets. Thus precipitation and evaporation alone determine its water volume. During drought, oxygen-16, which is lighter than oxygen-18, evaporates faster, so that the remaining water in the lake and, consequently, the snails' shells, become enriched with oxygen-18. The team's reconstruction showed a spike in the relative amount of oxygen-18 between 4,200 and 4,000 years ago. This suggests that precipitation dramatically decreased during that time. Moreover, their data suggests that the regular summer monsoons stopped for some 200 years.

The result, reported last week in Geology1, supports the idea that monsoon failure led to the civilization’s decline, although David Hodell, a co-author of the study and a palaeoclimatologist also at the University of Cambridge, hastens to add that uncertainties in the shell and archaeological records mean that the dates could be off by some 100 years in either direction.

Anil Gupta, the director of the Wadia Institute of Himalayan Geology in Dehradun, India, says that the work fills a gap in the geographic record of ancient droughts. But large questions remain. “What drove this climate change 4,100 years ago? We don’t see major changes in the North Atlantic or in the solar activity at that time.”

Recently, another team, led by palaeoclimatologist Sushma Prasad of the German Research Centre for Geoscience in Potsdam, Germany, did a similar analysis on a sediment core from Lonar Lake in central India2. They found that in that area, drought began as many as 4,600 years ago. But the results are consistent with those of Dixit’s group, Prasad says. “We see a drying event starting earlier, but at about 4,200 years ago it became very intense.”

If a lack of monsoons did spell the end of the Indus Valley civilization, says Hodell, “it is an example — and there are other examples of this — of how ancient societies have had to contend with climate. There are some lessons for us and our future, in which we will have to deal with anthropogenic climate change”.

http://www.nature.com/news/two-hundred-year-drought-doomed-indus-valley-civilization-1.14800
 
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Yes, historically speaking, presence of perennial source of water led to establishment of cities and growth of civilizations and it all ended with water bodies drying out leading to mass migrations along with starvation.
One more thing, notice the Ghaggar Hakra River and Thar Desert. I believe the dessert wasn't as big in area as it is today. Now with rivers flowing and abundant forest land, i'm not sure what led to area becoming arid over time. even as we speak Thar continues to expand, bringing more area in its cover. I'm not sure what led to all this, especially when there was no human activity that could've led to this. Any geologist on the forum, who can shed some light on this?
 
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Yes, historically speaking, presence of perennial source of water led to establishment of cities and growth of civilizations and it all ended with water bodies drying out leading to mass migrations along with starvation.
One more thing, notice the Ghaggar Hakra River and Thar Desert. I believe the dessert wasn't as big in area as it is today. Now with rivers flowing and abundant forest land, i'm not sure what led to area becoming arid over time.

It was a 4 KILOYEAR EVENT which caused the river bodies of SSC/IVC to dry up.
Earth's atmosphere keeps changing and it's for the same reason you will find a KILOYEAR events happening in regular frequencies eg 4 KILOYEAR event, 6 kiloyear event and 8 KILOYEAR event.
To be frank it's 4.2,5.9 and 8.2, I have rounded off the figures to 4,6 and 8.

The 4.2 BP (before present) KILOYEAR event, which took place, effected a lot of other places like the ancient Egyptian empire, Mesopotamia and even the Neolithic cultures of China.
Now the reason for catalysmic event (drying up of Saraswati and may be other water sources) in SSC/IVC is associated with the 4.2 KILOYEAR event. Reduction in monsoons and drying up of a water body can be a huge blow to any civilisation.


anant_s said:
even as we speak Thar continues to expand, bringing more area in its cover. I'm not sure what led to all this, especially when there was no human activity that could've led to this. Any geologist on the forum, who can shed some light on this?

Like I said earlier, that earth's rotation causes the overall atmosphere to keep changing, albeit it is very slow to be noticed in one life time.
The deserts, if you notice, are mostly found 30degrees to the equator (tropic of cancer and Tropic of Capricorn) and not at equator (well mostly).
This so because most of the equator is covered with water. Due to the high intensity of sun rays at equator, water evaporates and some part of it descends to cause precipitation.
While the drier air left, descends at about 30degrees. It is this dry air which causes the aridity.
Human activities might exacerbate the situation but it's mostly nature itself which causes the formation of deserts. What is a desert today might be a forest after 3000years.
Movement of air around Earth is a complex phenomenon- earth moves faster at its Center(afaik). To explain further we really need a geologist. (@Roybot might be able to help us, he's not a geologist though, comes close).

Let me show you it on the map...

image.png



@Kaptaan @WAJsal
What say?
 
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It was a 4 KILOYEAR EVENT which caused the river bodies of SSC/IVC to dry up.
Earth's atmosphere keeps changing and it's for the same reason you will find a KILOYEAR events happening in regular frequencies eg 4 KILOYEAR event, 6 kiloyear event and 8 KILOYEAR event.
To be frank it's 4.2,5.9 and 8.2, I have rounded off the figures to 4,6 and 8.

The 4.2 BP (before present) KILOYEAR event, which took place, effected a lot of other places like the ancient Egyptian empire, Mesopotamia and even the Neolithic cultures of China.
Now the reason for catalysmic event (drying up of Saraswati and may be other water sources) in SSC/IVC is associated with the 4.2 KILOYEAR event. Reduction in monsoons and drying up of a water body can be a huge blow to any civilisation.




Like I said earlier, that earth's rotation causes the overall atmosphere to keep changing, albeit it is very slow to be noticed in one life time.
The deserts, if you notice, are mostly found 30degrees to the equator (tropic of cancer and Tropic of Capricorn) and not at equator (well mostly).
This so because most of the equator is covered with water. Due to the high intensity of sun rays at equator, water evaporates and some part of it descends to cause precipitation.
While the drier air left, descends at about 30degrees. It is this dry air which causes the aridity.
Human activities might exacerbate the situation but it's mostly nature itself which causes the formation of deserts. What is a desert today might be a forest after 3000years.
Movement of air around Earth is a complex phenomenon- earth moves faster at its Center(afaik). To explain further we really need a geologist. (@Roybot might be able to help us, he's not a geologist though, comes close).

Let me show you it on the map...

View attachment 307722


@Kaptaan @WAJsal
What say?
Wow!
Never knew this data! Many thanks.
It looks like Earth resets its atmosphere every 2000 years and needless to say it has massive implications for living organisms, humans included.
 
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Wow!
Never knew this data! Many thanks.
It looks like Earth resets its atmosphere every 2000 years and needless to say it has massive implications for living organisms, humans included.
I have my moments. :angel:
I have somehow managed to keep this thread TROLL FREE. Lolz
 
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:p:
yes good thing, threads like these exist on Seniors cafe, otherwise given the trend elsewhere, guys don't miss a single opportunity to ransack.
I had intentionally posted it in senior's cafe. :angel:
 
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Harappa, now in Pakistan
Was it in Papua New Guinea last year?

As for the rest I have covered it in detail. I have no intention to go through it again. Other than to mention two disasters for India. (i) River Indus is in Pakistan. (ii) One of the earliest earliest civilizations was Indus Valley.

Join these two facts and you get one horrible result. Indus civilization > Pakistan. Imagine that? For Indian's to live with the galling fact that IVC is centred in their nemesis - Pakistan. So the solution? Fabricate. Cheat. lie. Change geography. But for gawds sakes move IVC to India. Drag it inch by inch toward India until it is all inside India. That's what all the revisionist history in India is about. Here enjoy this cartoon. Look (below) even Jerry is helping out.

SqxqD5N.png
 
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If i'm not mistaken Romila thapar has written quite a bit on subject.
It is said that civilization had advanced a lot in fields of metallurgy and ship building. Also the town planning had a vast sewage system telling they had some kind of administrative system as well. I hope to find more and will share here.

Sir, let us look at the matter keeping religion aside. The civilization is a joint heritage of both nations and i'm sure at that time the people followed no particular religion. This is one of the oldest organised human settlement, and i'm really interested to know what led to its end from such a gloriour height.
Also are you aware of any work being done by Pakistani historians on the subject?

  1. ''.....no particular currently extant religion...."
  2. ".....any work being done by Pakistani pre-historians on the subject?"
Really appreciate your posts; these two quibbles are just for the record. Ignore them, otherwise.
 
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here is an interesting paper i found on metallurgy (as inferred from items found in excavation) from the Harappan Civilization.
Metal technology of Harappan Culture
Please go through Table 2 to 5 (pages 4 through 7).
It is quite evident that copper was a predominant metal in use. Table 3 indicates use of Copper and Tin (Bronze) in use. Now the thing here is that Melting point of bronze is in range of 900-1100 Degree Celsius and it is evident that they had furnaces available for the work (i'm assuming coal fired, complete with ladle). What is also interesting to note is the trace percentage of metals such as sulfur etc, indicating they also developed fine techniques of improving purity of metals, a significant achievement considering this was only the beginning of science ad technology in Human history.
View attachment 218899
View attachment 218900
The Dancing Girl Statute (Bronze)
View attachment 218901

@FaujHistorian @levina

View attachment 218902

Plate with vertical sides. Copper and bronze plates were probably used exclusively by wealthy upper class city dwellers. Discovered in 1938.
What kinds of things did the Indus people eat? | Harappa


http://a.harappa.com/sites/g/files/g65461/f/Kenoyer1999_Metal Technologies of the Indus Valley Tradition.pdf

Coal-fired furnaces aren't necessary for melting bronze; wood will do. The legendary Wootz steel of India, that has become famous as the steel with which 'Damascus' blades were made, was smelted in wooden 'beehive' furnaces, some of which have been re-used in modern times by researchers.

May I suggest something. Apparently the core of subject civilzation has suddenly jumped over to Dholavira and Harappa in Pakistan is now relegated to secondary place. Therefore if these claims carry any substance Indian's are now justified contingent on the claims made and apply the principle of supremacy and supersession.

I move the motion that this civilization now named the "Dholavira Civilization" ( DC ) or if you will "Dholavira Saraswati Civilization". I moved the motion I leave it in the hands of Indian's in whose land this falls to ratify this motion and accordingly due justice to the claims being made.

Of course over the border I will be asking Pak to keep the term " Harappan" intact because we do not believe the Indian claims. Much as British call "Falklands and Argentines call Malvinas".

Yes, you had a right to make that remark, but it's ultimately a non-issue.

I always wonder why most of the greatest civilisations (Harappa, Mohenjodaro, Lasbella, Gandhara etc) of the past existed in the areas included in modern day Pakistan? Is it because of river indus and these are part of indus valley civilisations.

Someone tell him that Gandhara culture (not civilisation) was distinct from the others and was based on the Indo-Greek kingdoms of Bactria. The Indo-Greeks ruled from Bactria and are known to have raided as far east as Mathura and Kanauj; their eastern boundaries were what is today Pakistan.

I was sad to see, @Kaptaan , your hyper-sensitivity on the subject. Not needed. Ignore the revisionists; they are pests and we are going through a hugely delayed difficult teens period of our state. The post-Congress indeterminate groping for an alternative political settlement. A lot of things get smeared in such times.

PS: Having said that, I would be less than truthful if I did not admit that I find both sets of partisans on the subject amusing. As I have said before on this forum, the best-known remains of those times are within the nation-state of Pakistan, and you are the custodians of this great human legacy, just as the Taj Mahal lies within the nation-state of India, and we are the custodians of that great legacy. Any broader claims are simply childish, no matter which side of the Radcliffe Award they originate from.
 
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Someone tell him that Gandhara culture (not civilisation) was distinct from the others and was based on the Indo-Greek kingdoms of Bactria. The Indo-Greeks ruled from Bactria and are known to have raided as far east as Mathura and Kanauj; their eastern boundaries were what is today Pakistan.
You are quoting my comment but using the third person language...what happened to you? Last time you were trying to correct my spellings of Chanaky but forgetting about such an important rule. It would help if you please read about Gandhara civilisation and look into history...and not necessary by some indian historians but by some unbiased and independent ones. Ghandara region consists of Taxila, Peshawar, Swat and Potohar regions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara
 
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You are quoting my comment but using the third person language...what happened to you? Last time you were trying to correct my spellings of Chanaky but forgetting about such an important rule. It would help if you please read about Gandhara civilisation and look into history...and not necessary by some indian historians but by some unbiased and independent ones. Ghandara region consists of Taxila, Peshawar, Swat and Potohar regions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara

Somebody tell this kid that I started studying the Gandhara culture, not civilisation, forty years ago, and have kept it up since. The Gandhara region included these portions but the driving force, the Grecian influence and the start of statuary in the second urban initiative on the sub-continent was entirely, well, Greek. It might interest him to find out the succeeding culture, which inherited the fruits of this culture.

And it is still Chanakya. :enjoy:
 
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Somebody tell this kid that I started studying the Gandhara culture, not civilisation, forty years ago, and have kept it up since. The Gandhara region included these portions but the driving force, the Grecian influence and the start of statuary in the second urban initiative on the sub-continent was entirely, well, Greek. It might interest him to find out the succeeding culture, which inherited the fruits of this culture.

And it is still Chanakya. :enjoy:
I like your ostrich like behavior ... use of third person indicates you are not comfortable with holding a one to one discussion while I think this is a knowledge sharing activity and no one should be afraid in putting forward his opinion and knowledge in direct and straight forward manner. It is good to know that you know but my emphasis is on why this is located in the region called indus valley or current Pakistan regardless of the driving force...can you throw some light on it?
 
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1) Your posts and mine got deleted because of DDOS attacks.Every body lost their threads and posts (of sat and sun).
2) I have not posted anything religious this time. I avoided it purposely.
3) The feeling is mutual. And come on! We are all adults here. :)

DDOS and Data Loss ? NOT Possible.
Ur Info is Oustanding.
 
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