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Dholavira- The zenith of Harappan town planning!

I think we are forgetting Gobekili Tepe here, the 12000yr old site which left all the archeologists flummoxed.

So no IVC and other such civilisations were not the greatest.

@levina Ji,

I don't think Gobekilli belongs to gold/silver/bronze age. Does it?
May be I missed something.

FYI. Anant and I were discussing gold/silver/bronze artifacts from Sindh Valley.

peace.
 
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Gold, Silver, copper/bronze are the "easiest" metals to melt and change to specific shape. So obviously they would have gone after gold and silver artifacts (including coinage). This was awesome!
But we should not forget that large river valleys in China produced similar artifacts before Sindh River valley.
True, the malleability of metals made for easy shaping. But the interesting part was how did they extract the metal from ore, surely some kind of furnace was available.
Secondly bronze being an alloy also tells some sort of basic research was done. If documents in this regard are found and interpreted, we'll get a better insight into civilization.
 
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here is an interesting paper i found on metallurgy (as inferred from items found in excavation) from the Harappan Civilization.
Metal technology of Harappan Culture
Please go through Table 2 to 5 (pages 4 through 7).
It is quite evident that copper was a predominant metal in use. Table 3 indicates use of Copper and Tin (Bronze) in use. Now the thing here is that Melting point of bronze is in range of 900-1100 Degree Celsius and it is evident that they had furnaces available for the work (i'm assuming coal fired, complete with ladle). What is also interesting to note is the trace percentage of metals such as sulfur etc, indicating they also developed fine techniques of improving purity of metals, a significant achievement considering this was only the beginning of science ad technology in Human history.
9e2e35f0b726f73bc20ecaeade8921d2.png

410px-Dancing_girl.jpg

The Dancing Girl Statute (Bronze)
i_dancing_girl.jpg


@FaujHistorian @levina

indus-food.jpg


Plate with vertical sides. Copper and bronze plates were probably used exclusively by wealthy upper class city dwellers. Discovered in 1938.
What kinds of things did the Indus people eat? | Harappa


http://a.harappa.com/sites/g/files/...echnologies of the Indus Valley Tradition.pdf
 
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@scorpionx is this really a dancing girl statue ? :unsure:

The sculpture looks more like the look a married guy gets from his wife when he tells her 'Honey I'm going out with my friends' right after shes cooked dinner for him ! :sarcastic:

Could it be that your Great-Great-Great......Grandpa and mine were dealt with in the same way by our Great-Great...Grandmas and an artist was able to capture their anguish through this sculpture ? :o:
 
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here is an interesting paper i found on metallurgy (as inferred from items found in excavation) from the Harappan Civilization.
Metal technology of Harappan Culture
Please go through Table 2 to 5 (pages 4 through 7).
It is quite evident that copper was a predominant metal in use. Table 3 indicates use of Copper and Tin (Bronze) in use. Now the thing here is that Melting point of bronze is in range of 900-1100 Degree Celsius and it is evident that they had furnaces available for the work (i'm assuming coal fired, complete with ladle). What is also interesting to note is the trace percentage of metals such as sulfur etc, indicating they also developed fine techniques of improving purity of metals, a significant achievement considering this was only the beginning of science ad technology in Human history.
View attachment 218899
View attachment 218900
The Dancing Girl Statute (Bronze)
View attachment 218901

@FaujHistorian @levina

View attachment 218902

Plate with vertical sides. Copper and bronze plates were probably used exclusively by wealthy upper class city dwellers. Discovered in 1938.
What kinds of things did the Indus people eat? | Harappa


http://a.harappa.com/sites/g/files/g65461/f/Kenoyer1999_Metal Technologies of the Indus Valley Tradition.pdf
Thank you so much for that link anant!
Isnt it amazing that that the perfectly dressed stones of massive fortified walls (some of which were as thick as 11 m, built in the earliest stage of the city) were made using the copper tools?


In the OP I had not mentioned about the funerary architecture found in Dholavira. A huge circular structure was found on the site, which is believed to be a grave or memorial. Interestingly it is devoid of skeletons and human remains(except in few cases), but pottery pieces, terra cotta seals, bangles, rings, beads were found within the structure. These structures also show the presence of composite ethnic group. These funerary monuments were made fine-grained, bright yellow limestone pieces of medium size without using mortar.
 
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Isnt it amazing that that the perfectly dressed stones of massive fortified walls (some of which were as thick as 11 m, built in the earliest stage of the city) were made using the copper tools?
More importantly they had mechanisms to handle heavy stones at that heights and obviously understanding of some basic architecture.
buildings.jpg
indus_valley_main.jpg
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Also notice the brick work and neatness in layout, not to mention symmetry. This cannot be possible without the aid of drawing, measuring, survey devices and advanced construction techniques.
@scorpionx is this really a dancing girl statue ? :unsure:
Trust me, it is!
indus-ideology.jpg

http://a.harappa.com/sites/g/files/...y and Legitimation in the Indus State as .pdf
The sculpture looks more like the look a married guy gets from his wife when he tells her 'Honey I'm going out with my friends' right after shes cooked dinner for him !

or perhaps the looks of a tigress:mamba:, waiting for her hubby who promised her a movie and dinner, only to forget and spend instead the time with mates in local bar
 
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May I suggest something. Apparently the core of subject civilzation has suddenly jumped over to Dholavira and Harappa in Pakistan is now relegated to secondary place. Therefore if these claims carry any substance Indian's are now justified contingent on the claims made and apply the principle of supremacy and supersession.

I move the motion that this civilization now named the "Dholavira Civilization" ( DC ) or if you will "Dholavira Saraswati Civilization". I moved the motion I leave it in the hands of Indian's in whose land this falls to ratify this motion and accordingly due justice to the claims being made.

Of course over the border I will be asking Pak to keep the term " Harappan" intact because we do not believe the Indian claims. Much as British call "Falklands and Argentines call Malvinas".
 
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More importantly they had mechanisms to handle heavy stones at that heights and obviously understanding of some basic architecture.
View attachment 219092 View attachment 219093 View attachment 219094

Also notice the brick work and neatness in layout, not to mention symmetry. This cannot be possible without the aid of drawing, measuring, survey devices and advanced construction techniques.
Anant what surprises me is that these people achieved all this 5000yrs back.
2 other points which make this civilisation remarkable 're
1) No glorification of any ruler: This is in contrast with contemporary civilizations such as those of Egypt or Mesopotamia, we find no palaces or other monuments that could be clearly associated with a ruling class(citadel 're a diff subject), no glorification or even portrayal of the rulers.

2)Peace loving people (well mostly!!): The absence of any evidence of armies or warfare or slaughter or man-made destruction in any settlement and at any point of time proves that they were peace loving people. Not a single seal depicts a battle or a captive or a victor.

May I suggest something. Apparently the core of subject civilzation has suddenly jumped over to Dholavira and Harappa in Pakistan is now relegated to secondary place.
My thread was not posted with such an intention.
Therefore if these claims carry any substance Indian's are now justified contingent on the claims made and apply the principle of supremacy and supersession.
whateva!!
I move the motion that this civilization now named the "Dholavira Civilization" ( DC ) or if you will "Dholavira Saraswati Civilization". I moved the motion I leave it in the hands of Indian's in whose land this falls to ratify this motion and accordingly due justice to the claims being made.
Sir you're forgetting the fact that these were City-states. The initial assumption of a centralized Harappan empire does not fit well, and opinion has been veering towards a model of “city-states". Possible regional capitals include Mohenjo-daro, Harappa, Ganweriwala and Dholavira or Lothal. So no matter how hard you try, this civilisation will be called the Sindhu-Saraswati civilisation.
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Of course over the border I will be asking Pak to keep the term " Harappan" intact because we do not believe the Indian claims. Much as British call "Falklands and Argentines call Malvinas".
The sites of Mohenjodaro and Harappa were found in early 1900's, ergo those 're more famous compared to Dholavira,where the excavation on something as important as the great bath has begun as recently as october 2014. But this doesnt change the fact that these newly found cities were once upon a time more famous than their predecessors.
 
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No glorification of any ruler
I thought of saying that. The fact that there looks a proper town planning (roads, sanitation system, perhaps some other public utilities) tells that people were participating in building society in some sort of democratic manner or had a say in overall running of affairs.
I tried to search (unsuccessfully though) about this facet of civilization and would be fascinating to know how such a system existed in those times when most other human settlements were either nomadic or under and all powerful King's state.
 
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I thought of saying that. The fact that there looks a proper town planning (roads, sanitation system, perhaps some other public utilities) tells that people were participating in building society in some sort of democratic manner or had a say in overall running of affairs.
I tried to search (unsuccessfully though) about this facet of civilization and would be fascinating to know how such a system existed in those times when most other human settlements were either nomadic or under and all powerful King's state.
I read it in Michel Danino's article that these cities were possibly city-states and run like the 16 Mahajanapadas or the famous 16 cities of India.
Mahajanapada literally means foothold of a tribe, these kingdoms were also called as republics.
Mahajanapadas - New World Encyclopedia
 
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Interestingly the concept of Janapada still exists in several North Indian States.
 
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Just updating.
didn't know where to post this
Beautiful painted pot- SSC - 3000 BCE

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I always wonder why most of the greatest civilisations (Harappa, Mohenjodaro, Lasbella, Gandhara etc) of the past existed in the areas included in modern day Pakistan? Is it because of river indus and these are part of indus valley civilisations.
 
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I always wonder why most of the greatest civilisations (Harappa, Mohenjodaro, Lasbella, Gandhara etc) of the past existed in the areas included in modern day Pakistan? Is it because of river indus and these are part of indus valley civilisations.
Much as great centres of civilization took route around River Nile (Egypt) or around Tigris/Euphrates (Mesopotamia-Iraq) Indus River (Pakistan) was also the centre of civilization.

In fact four great rivers were centres of earliest civiization. Pakistan was the location of one of those ancient civilizations.

*Nile River - Egypt
*Indus River - Pakistan
*Euphrates/Tigris - Iraq
*Yellow River - China

upload_2016-5-29_13-3-51.png


Link > http://www.mentorials.com/high-school-history-ancient-river-civilizations.htm
 
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