Destroy ISI - Indian NSA Advisor

[Vinod2070]

The US never held back on exposing Khans nuclear proliferation, one thing they will not stand for is institutional support for terrorism and the Taliban, especially when it puts the lives of their troops and civilians on the line.

As far as rogue elements supporting the Taliban is concerned, that is something the US has expressed concerns over, as well as some parts of the FC supporting the Taliban, and Musharraf himself acknowledged that - but that is different from what is being implied here.

In fact, the US would have every reason to confront Pakistan with evidence of of institutional support for terrorism, since it would then be able to bring about a tremendous amount of pressure on Pakistan to get it to take more military action in Pakistan.

AM, much of the diplomacy is conducted behind closed doors and public statements can't be always taken at face value. The US would not stand support to Taliban if it goes against their interests. It would not come down with nearly the same force if it is not their people who are directly attacked. the USA is accusing Pakistan of not doing enough on almost a daily basis and have a carrot and stick game going on with Pakistan.

Do you believe they can say with complete authority who was or was not involved? And even if they can, they will not push their own agenda? I don't see their clean chit (as it were and if they have done so) to be the absolute truth the same as you won't do so if it had been otherwise.

What can be seen in terms of 'motive' is that Pakistan does not stand to gain anything from bombing an embassy, this argument has been IMO debunked thoroughly in the bombing thread - if such flimsy motives of destabilization are what you want to buy, then the motive applies equally in the case of the Lal Masjid attack on the police as well, indicating Indian culpability - for which no Taliban group claimed responsibility.

Well I don't place too much value in Taliban claiming or not claiming responsibility for a particular act. They would do so based on their own calculus and to expect them to be always truthful is not something I am willing to do.

I do see the point of ISI and/or Taliban acting in such a manner if for nohing else than to increase the cost of doing business for India. It conveys the message that the Afghan operation is not without it's perils and carries a cost. Not everything done by the Taliban has to be intelligible to me and you. They do what they do as per their own calculations and beliefs, all of which may not seem rational to us.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, much of the diplomacy is conducted behind closed doors and public statements can't be always taken at face value. The US would not stand support to Taliban if it goes against their interests. It would not come down with nearly the same force if it is not their people who are directly attacked. the USA is accusing Pakistan of not doing enough on almost a daily basis and have a carrot and stick game going on with Pakistan.

Vinod,

Your attempts to discredit the US analysis are getting absurd. How can the US not have an interest in curbing Taliban activities or support for the Taliban? Of course they won't stand support for them, and Pakistan would have been under the hammer by now had their been any truth to institutional support from the ISI for the Taliban, that the US did not know about.

If it is in the interest of the US to have the ISI support the Taliban, then perhaps India should take up its complaints with the US.

'Not doing enough' is not the same as 'active institutional support' for the Taliban. Most Pakistanis on this forum will admit that Pakistan is not doing enough, but we will also point out why, that there are strong domestic constraints and pitfalls that need to be addressed.

Those are two unrelated arguments.

Do you believe they can say with complete authority who was or was not involved? And even if they can, they will not push their own agenda? I don't see their clean chit (as it were and if they have done so) to be the absolute truth the same as you won't do so if it had been otherwise.

India, given the disparity in the intel apparatus and resources, can say with even less authority who was involved, and unlike the US, India has a strong motive for discrediting pakistan and lying about its involvement and pushing its own agenda.

Well I don't place too much value in Taliban claiming or not claiming responsibility for a particular act. They would do so based on their own calculus and to expect them to be always truthful is not something I am willing to do.

I do see the point of ISI and/or Taliban acting in such a manner if for nohing else than to increase the cost of doing business for India. It conveys the message that the Afghan operation is not without it's perils and carries a cost. Not everything done by the Taliban has to be intelligible to me and you. They do what they do as per their own calculations and beliefs, all of which may not seem rational to us.

The problem here is the hypocrisy shown by some Indians. The Talban did not claim responsibility for either attack, and both were suicide bombings, but while the Embassy bombing has to be the ISI, the Islamabad bombing is teh Taliban. That is pure drivel.

If the Islamabad bombing was done by the Taliban/AQ alone, then there is no reason to not believe that the Embassy bombing was also done by the Taliban alone.

If some speculative motive for 'destabilization' can apply to show Pakistan's involvement in the Embassy bombing, an equally strong motive can be shown to indicate India's involvement in the Islamabad bombing, to destabilize Pakistan.

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod,

Your attempts to discredit the US analysis are getting absurd. How can the US not have an interest in curbing Taliban activities or support for the Taliban? Of course they won't stand support for them, and Pakistan would have been under the hammer by now had their been any truth to institutional support from the ISI for the Taliban, that the US did not know about.

If it is in the interest of the US to have the ISI support the Taliban, then perhaps India should take up its complaints with the US.

Well, there is no point in stretching this issue. We obviously are drawing different conclusions from the same facts. I am not trying to discredit anything, just not necessarily taking it at face value.

Let's leave it here to avoid going in circles.

'Not doing enough' is not the same as 'active institutional support' for the Taliban. Most Pakistanis on this forum will admit that Pakistan is not doing enough, but we will also point out why, that there are strong domestic constraints and pitfalls that need to be addressed.

Those are two unrelated arguments.

They are. The only linkage is that the USA would not burn all it's bridges with Pakistan. That is why the double speak that you see all the time.

And I don't see most Pakistani members admitting that Pakistan is not doing enough. Many even question what Pakistan is doing as of now. But that is only to be expected.

India, given the disparity in the intel apparatus and resources, can say with even less authority who was involved, and unlike the US, India has a strong motive for discrediting pakistan and lying about its involvement and pushing its own agenda.

I see why you would say that.

I am not sure many Pakistani members would agree with the part I highlighted in red. Many would believe that USA has an equal (may be bigger) motive to discredit Pakistan.

It all depends on what we believe to be true, not necessarily what is true. And the truth may never come out!

The problem here is the hypocrisy shown by some Indians. The Talban did not claim responsibility for either attack, and both were suicide bombings, but while the Embassy bombing has to be the ISI, the Islamabad bombing is teh Taliban. That is pure drivel.

Aren't we talking about two different Talibans here? The Pakistani Taliban is different from the Afghan one I thought. Most Pakistani members drive that point here.

The embassy bombing is insinuated to be a joint operation carried out by the Afghan Taliban with ISI support and backing.

The Islamabad bombings, I won't know who is responsible. If it is Taliban, it has to be the Pakistani one.

I am surprised, you did not take notice of this obvious fact. Was it intentional?

If the Islamabad bombing was done by the Taliban/AQ alone, then there is no reason to not believe that the Embassy bombing was also done by the Taliban alone.

If some speculative motive for 'destabilization' can apply to show Pakistan's involvement in the Embassy bombing, an equally strong motive can be shown to indicate India's involvement in the Islamabad bombing, to destabilize Pakistan.

Nothing new for me to say except repeat again that the two Talibans are different ones. It could be the Afghan Taliban/AQ only in Indian embassy case, but that does raise the question of why Indian embassy only. The attack on NATO forces would get more publicity and get more bang for the same buck.

This problem is resolved if you go by what the NSA says and is the simpler explanation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

They are. The only linkage is that the USA would not burn all it's bridges with Pakistan. That is why the double speak that you see all the time.

And I don't see most Pakistani members admitting that Pakistan is not doing enough. Many even question what Pakistan is doing as of now. But that is only to be expected.

I fail to see how you can suggest that the two are the same issues.

Institutional support for the Taliban, which the US has denied, would be the ISI/Army training the Taliban (Pakistani) in camps, and funding them to carry out operations in Afghanistan.

"not doing enough" is the lack of military operations in FATA, withdrawal of the Army from various parts of FATA, and the negotiation of peace deals by the civilian government in the hope that dialog will help resolve the issue.

I see many (if not most) Pakistanis on this forum criticizing the GoP for resorting to dialog, when it obviously did not work prior when the military was in charge. But I personally see the repeate attempts at dialog as a necessary evil, since most Pakistanis and political parties never thought that Musharraf attempted 'deals' sincerely.

I see why you would say that.

I am not sure many Pakistani members would agree with the part I highlighted in red. Many would believe that USA has an equal (may be bigger) motive to discredit Pakistan.

Certainly - which makes the US exoneration of Pakistan even more credible, since they have every thing to gain by pressuring pakistan to do more militarily.

It all depends on what we believe to be true, not necessarily what is true. And the truth may never come out!

IMO logic, and the evidence on display all point to Pakistani innocence.

Aren't we talking about two different Talibans here? The Pakistani Taliban is different from the Afghan one I thought. Most Pakistani members drive that point here.

The embassy bombing is insinuated to be a joint operation carried out by the Afghan Taliban with ISI support and backing.

The Islamabad bombings, I won't know who is responsible. If it is Taliban, it has to be the Pakistani one.

I am surprised, you did not take notice of this obvious fact. Was it intentional?

We may be talking about three or more Taliban here, plus AQ, plus any other groups.

Ideologically one set of taliban in Pakistan and in Afghanistan is the same - they are anti-state and anti-us and anti-'whoever is supporting the US', which includes Pakistan and India.

The point here isn't that there are different groups, it is that the 'insinuation' of Pakistani involvement has arguments that can be equally applied to show Indian involvement in the Islamabad blasts.

Nothing new for me to say except repeat again that the two Talibans are different ones. It could be the Afghan Taliban/AQ only in Indian embassy case, but that does raise the question of why Indian embassy only. The attack on NATO forces would get more publicity and get more bang for the same buck.

This problem is resolved if you go by what the NSA says and is the simpler explanation.

Embassy was always in Taliban crosshairs​

8 Jul 2008, 0229 hrs IST, Dhananjay Mahapatra,TNN

NEW DELHI: The mastermind behind the suicide attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul on Monday may not be immediately known, but it had been the favourite target of the Taliban before they entered the war-torn city on September 26, 1996, till they were driven out by the US-led coalition in November 2001.

So intense were the rocket attacks on the embassy at a time when Taliban were inching closer to Kabul waging bloody fights against the Northern Alliance forces led by legendary leader Masood, that officials had decided to construct a heavily fortified bunker right inside the embassy premises.

So specific was the targeting of the Indian embassy that the officials used to leave their cars and other vehicles parked inside the Indonesian embassy, which is next to the Indian embassy, to keep them safe from the Taliban rockets.

The bunker, which was constructed after a BSF jawan on deputation was killed in one such rocket attack, had three small rooms with an attached kitchen and provided enough room for officials to dive in everytime there was a blast nearby.

But before the officials actually got used to a life in the bunker, the Indian government decided to close the embassy in September 1996 as the Afghan government was in no position to guarantee the security of the staff and building. The embassy closed on September 26, 1996, barely 12 hours before Taliban entered Kabul.

When this correspondent visited the embassy premises in December 2001, it still bore telltale signs of rocket attacks and the vandalism at the hands of the Taliban during the five-year reign, which ended in November 2001 through the 'war against terror' by US-led forces.

After then external affairs minister Jaswant Singh reopened the embassy on December 22, 2001, the day Hamid Karzai was sworn in as interim president of Afghanistan, the bunker was dismantled with a plan to fill the pit and make a landscaped garden over it.

I think the NSA argument is an absurd piece of lies and fabrications. Pakistan, as has been argued repeatedly on other threads, gains nothing from bombing the Indian embassy - only a nitwit would think that one embassy bombing would deter India from its plans in Afghanistan.

Bombing government targets and then demanding that they withdraw their troops/support is an age old militant tactic.

Also this:

Taliban sparked border clash: NATO​

* ISPR says Pakistan still has suspicions

KABUL/ISLAMABAD: NATO officials claim insurgents are sowing confusion at the Pak-Afghan border, while the Pakistan army “still suspects” the Afghan forces had hit a military post in South Waziristan.

NATO-led peacekeepers in Afghanistan on Saturday blamed militants for a mortar attack two nights earlier that wounded Pakistani soldiers and Afghan police on either side of the border. A NATO official said the alliance suspects insurgents deliberately tried to spark tension by aiming at targets on both sides of the border. “Because it was very close to the border, we verified that the origins of the fire was within Afghanistan,” NATO spokesman Mark Laity said. “Our assessment is that this was an attempt to create a border incident.”

Suspicions: Responding to NATO’s statement on Saturday that militants were responsible for the incident and that NATO had not struck Pakistani positions, Pakistan army spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas insisted that Pakistan still had suspicions.

“It was a precision engagement which destroyed the post,” Abbas said. “It doesn’t make sense that anybody else was fighting.” agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

The Taliban are apparently trying to create fissures here.

and:

Embassy bombing may be mischief​

Thursday, July 10, 2008

By Hamid Mir

ISLAMABAD: Nato commanders in Afghanistan believe India and Pakistan were indirectly playing into the hands of the Taliban or some other “third force” by blaming one another for terrorist activities against each other.

Highly-placed diplomatic sources in Islamabad and Kabul have said Nato commanders and some important Western diplomats were trying their best to remove misunderstandings between the two neighbours.

Misunderstandings were created after a suicide attack on the Indian Embassy on Monday in which Indian military attache Brigadier Mehta and political councillor Venket Rao were killed along with 41 others.

Nato commanders were of the view that both Kabul and Islamabad were target of terrorists as the Islamabad police was targeted just one day before the attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul. Nato officials appreciated that Pakistan never blamed India for the Islamabad bombing but the Indian media was quick to blame Pakistan by quoting “Afghan sources”.

Diplomatic sources in Islamabad were concerned Pakistan may also blame India for any terrorist incident in future on its soil to the benefit of the Taliban and al-Qaeda. It was learnt that a few months ago, Pakistan provided some evidence of possible Indian hand in terrorist activities against Chinese engineers in Balochistan to Afghanistan and Nato officials. Pakistanis always believe that India is trying to destabilise Balochistan and Fata by indirectly helping the militants but the Afghan government always ignored these concerns.

Afghan officials were suspecting Pakistan for the killing of Brigadier Mehta because he was very active in establishing defence ties between India and Afghanistan. Brig Mehta even had a personal relationship with Afghan defence minister Abdul Rahim Wardak.

Brig Mehta, in fact, had accompanied Wardak when he visited New Delhi in April 2008 to hold discussions with his Indian counterpart AK Antony and visit Jammu and Kashmir for a first-hand look at the way the Indian Army conducted counter-insurgency operations. Mehta sent many Afghan army officers and pilots for training to India.

He recently proposed to bring more Indian paramilitary troops to Afghanistan for providing security to Indian Army engineers engaged in a road project in Nimroz province. Indian Border Roads Organization came under 30 rocket attacks in 2007 only in Nimroz. Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITPB) have already provided 400 soldiers for guarding this project.

Four ITPB Jawans were killed on June 4 this year in a bomb attack in Nimroz. Taliban have killed and kidnapped Indian officials many times during the last three years, they have always accepted the responsibility of their attacks against the Indians but it was the first time that they did not accept the responsibility of the attack on the Indian Embassy in Kabul.

Many believe that misunderstandings between Pakistan and India would be in the interest of the Taliban because they want their enemies to fight each other. The Taliban have killed more Pakistani troops in Fata than the total number of Nato troops killed in Afghanistan during the last seven years.

The Taliban know that Indians have named a road in the diplomatic enclave of Delhi as “Ahmad Shah Masood Marg” who was their biggest enemy. They also know that India never accepted their government in Kabul from 1996 to 2001. India always provided money and weapons to Ahmad Shah Masood and the Taliban still consider India as their enemy.

Different groups of the Taliban were targeting both India and Pakistan since the last few years. There were 57 suicide attacks in Pakistan in 2007 in which 658 people were killed. The first six month of 2008 had 25 suicide bombings with 332 dead.

Afghanistan had 160 suicide bombings in 2007 with 836 people dead whereas 76 bombings in the first six months of 2008 with 466 dead. There were seven suicide attacks in Afghanistan in March 2008 compared to 17 in March 2007.There was a sudden increase in the attacks in June 2008 with 17 suicide bombings compared to just seven suicide bombings in June 2007.

According to details, suicide bombings slightly increased in areas close to the Iranian border. Kandahar and Helmand are close to Pakistan while Nimroz and Farah are close to Iran. There were 15 suicide attacks in Kandahar in 2008 compared to 26 in 2007. There were 15 suicide attacks in Helmand in 2008 compared to 22 in 2007. There were only three attacks in Nimroz in 2007 but eight attacks in the first six months of 2008. Farah is close to the Iranian border and had just five suicide attacks in 2007 but this province saw six suicide attacks in 2008.

Many Defence experts believe only Taliban have the capacity to organise a suicide bombing in Kabul. They even targeted President Karzai on April 27, 2008 in Kabul during a military parade. Some political analysts fear if the Taliban were not involved in Monday’s bombing then it was a more dangerous phenomenon because deteriorating law and order situation and growing tension between India and Pakistan may provide an opportunity to some non-political players in Pakistan to once again break the fragile democracy in the country.

Many Pakistanis think the attack on the Indian Embassy in Kabul was actually an attack on peace and democracy lovers in Pakistan because the real loser is Pakistan, which is being blamed for the incident despite the fact that the whole of Pakistan is still on high alert for possible suicide bombings. India could get some benefit by deploying more paramilitary troops or even regular army troops in Afghanistan in the name of “enhancing more security”.

Embassy bombing may be mischief

Quite honestly the NSA version is just silly, and has no logical basis to it.

It is pretty sad in fact that India has moved back to the same old 'blame game' - like I said elsewhere, it does show its intentions towards peace and normalization with Pakistan as insincere.

 

[Vinod2070]

It is pretty sad in fact that India has moved back to the same old 'blame game' - like I said elsewhere, it does show its intentions towards peace and normalization with Pakistan as insincere.

Amazingly, many Indians would see the embassy bombings the same way.

If it leads to deterioration in relations (as it well may), it would be sad and a step back for both countries.

I really hope it was a Taliban only operation, though find it little difficult to believe.

I can't even say that we should wait for the facts to come out. Its obvious its not gonna happen.

 

[Flintlock]

Amazingly, many Indians would see the embassy bombings the same way.

If it leads to deterioration in relations (as it well may), it would be sad and a step back for both countries.

I really hope it was a Taliban only operation, though find it little difficult to believe.

I can't even say that we should wait for the facts to come out. Its obvious its not gonna happen.

It was the ISI. Take my word for it.

An attack of such precision and sophistication is not the forte of Taliban.

 

[Vinod2070]

It was the ISI. Take my word for it.

An attack of such precision and sophistication is not the forte of Taliban.

Agreed. As I said earlier, the Taliban only scenario seems to have a few problems. First India would not be their biggest enemy and second as you said the precision and targetting of the attack points in a certain drection.

 

[nitesh]

Agreed. As I said earlier, the Taliban only scenario seems to have a few problems. First India would not be their biggest enemy and second as you said the precision and targetting of the attack points in a certain drection.

Agree, the way the attacks are getting carried out. it is not the work of taliban alone.

 

[Kasrkin]

It was the ISI. Take my word for it.

An attack of such precision and sophistication is not the forte of Taliban.

Oh, give me a break, it happens in Iraq all the time and Iraqi militants are no more professional than the Taliban and Al-Qaeda's probably up to a few old tricks. Only this time its working, Indians are happily have a go against us again.

Agreed. As I said earlier, the Taliban only scenario seems to have a few problems. First India would not be their biggest enemy and second as you said the precision and targetting of the attack points in a certain drection.

Few years back, India was happily informing the world that the Taliban have taken up positions in Kargil, and now all of a sudden they would never think of attacking Indian interests? What kind of logic says that just because you are not the 'biggest enemy', you will never be hit? May be your security was lax, could be a thousand possible reasons, not to mention the half a million troops you have had down the throats of the Kashmiri people for half a century. Thousands of people are killed as a result of insurgent violence in Afghanistan every year, some with very different nationalities, and 50 people die so now India sees a tread.
Its like when the Taliban took the South Koreans hostage, the South Koreans should have started accusing the North Koreans of doing this simply because 'they were not the biggest enemy of the Taliban.'

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Political posturing.

Must await what the Indian govt does.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Few years back, India was happily informing the world that the Taliban have taken up positions in Kargil

,

Did they?

I think you have got your facts and history wrong.

It was Pakistan which was happily attempting to project that picture that the mujhaideens were in Kargil and when in actuality India proved that the NLI had come in!

 

[Skywalker]

Agree, the way the attacks are getting carried out. it is not the work of taliban alone.

Well its better for your Intelligence agnecies either to provide a proof or stop bullshitting. For Indians ISI is always been a easy escape goat. Your intelligence agencies were never been able to provide any proofs on any previous attacks say for example the Bombay bombings, as soon the bombs exploaded they started blaming ISI..and dont give me the stupid reference of Dawood Ibrahim.

In the end its tit for tat stop poking your noses in Balouchistan and FATA.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The CBM is more important than going after the ISI.

My opinion.

 

[alibaz]

Think, Government of Pakistan makes a pact with the people of FATA then twice Pakistani posts are attacked by ISAF and twice Indian Army opens fire at LoC in Kashmir. Bomb blast takes place in Kabul and India starts blaming ISI.

 

[Kasrkin]

,

Did they?

I think you have got your facts and history wrong.

It was Pakistan which was happily attempting to project that picture that the mujhaideens were in Kargil and when in actuality India proved that the NLI had come in!

Haha, so very sad. You really dont know do you? Thats exactly what the Indian goverment was saying when the irregulars were discovered. They obviously refined it a bit later on(given how stupid it was). Perhaps you will care to dig up some old news items before accusing me of having my history wrong? Or maybe someone here can confirm it...
And everyone knows that Kashmiri Mujahideen are worlds apart form the Afghan Taliban, and Pakistan always said Mujahideen from the valley were taking part. Why would we try to say they came all the way from Afghanistan?