Debunking Bangladesh's Myths of "Exploitation" and "Genocide"

[Indus Pakistan]

@Solomon2

This extract from the US Office of Historian reveals few things.

(i) There was tiny Pak force of 35,000 men trying to contain a swarming country of 75 million. For comparative purposes there were over 110,000 Us soldiers trying to contain just 29 million in Afghanistan. And it might be relevant to mention they did not have to contend a full scale invasion by huge neighbour - say China.

(ii) This tiny embattled force was fighting with Bangla Mukhti Bahini and soon to invade India as well as keeping Bengal in it's grip. The subsequent defeat was inevitable although both Bangladeshi and Indian's regard this the greates victory on the battlefield since Spartan at Thermopylae. I won't go into the fact that the 35k were over 1,300 miles from home.

(iii) There was incredible cruelty inflicted but any civil war is brutal. Having said this figures like million plus are simple propaganda that has over time taken to real history. You only have to look at US civil war or how Turks dealt with Armenians. You don't need to go that far back. In extremely trying circumstances terrible things happen. Look at German Army and it's operations in the east or the Red Army and it's actions in Germany.

(iv) For me what is most significant aspect is how US leaned toward Pakistan. It indeed did what a ally does. It bent backwards to accomodate Gen. Yayha Khan and his government, Nixon had enormous respect for Gen. Yahya who was hard drinking, full blooded womanizing product of British Sandhurst Academy. Pakistani leaders before mid 1970s made very positive impact on their US counterparts. President Ayub Khan had also been in the same category.

(v) Today it is the Islamism that has caused the divergence between US and Pak. It is the Islamism that is wreaking havoc. This Islamism was begining to make impact inside Pakistan in early 1970s but really took off by end of the 1970s decade which coincided with Iranian Revolution. !980s and Afghan jihad pretty well established jihadism and the order we see today.

(vi) This change is evident in photos of what was relative liberal Pakistan before 1980 and the increasing Islamism, intolerance that creaped in over time. Alcohol was banned in 1977.

And just as referance in 1947 India invaded the princely state of Hyderabad which was simiar to Kashmir state only that the ruler was Muslim.

Hyderabad 1948: India's hidden massacre - BBC News

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why would you endorse letting unsubstantiated rumor clog the wheels of justice?

The 'wheels of justice' involve individuals and events in two different nations and require credible evidence and free and unfettered access to documents, places and people for a fair trial or reconciliation process to be undertaken.

Unless the two governments first agree on scaling back their respective positions and commit to focus solely on claims of atrocities that can be credibly validated, how can any investigation or trial even begin?

 

[Solomon2]

This extract from the US Office of Historian reveals few things.

(i) There was tiny Pak force of 35,000 men trying to contain a swarming country of 75 million.

That was their estimate, it was later learned it was more like 90,000 - that's the number of personnel Pakistan claimed were prisoners in Bangladesh, anyway.

There was incredible cruelty inflicted but any civil war is brutal. Having said this figures like million plus are simple propaganda that has over time taken to real history. You only have to look at US civil war -

If I recall correctly, In the U.S. civil war outrages against civilians have been estimated at around 50,000, less than 10% of the total, and that was mostly due to starvation (Vicksburg) and accident, I think. (But the situation in Shenandoah and Missouri was awful). In the War of the Roses civilian casualties were a very small proportion of the population.

or how Turks dealt with Armenians.

In the Turkish-Armenian case, well over 90% of the casualties had to have been civilians - and that's how the Turks planned it to be. It was the fact Turkish leaders got away with their crimes that inspired Hitler with his own genocidal plans.

The 'wheels of justice' involve individuals and events in two different nations and require credible evidence and free and unfettered access to documents, places and people for a fair trial or reconciliation process to be undertaken.

There may well be records in Pakistan itself sufficient to convict living Pakistani Army officers and at least ruin the reputations of those dead. Declaring that you have to wait for the other side to give in is an excuse - and an admission that of its own accord, Pakistan doesn't care about justice.

 

[TMA]

@Solomon2

This extract from the US Office of Historian reveals few things.

(i) There was tiny Pak force of 35,000 men trying to contain a swarming country of 75 million. For comparative purposes there were over 110,000 Us soldiers trying to contain just 29 million in Afghanistan. And it might be relevant to mention they did not have to contend a full scale invasion by huge neighbour - say China.

(ii) This tiny embattled force was fighting with Bangla Mukhti Bahini and soon to invade India as well as keeping Bengal in it's grip. The subsequent defeat was inevitable although both Bangladeshi and Indian's regard this the greates victory on the battlefield since Spartan at Thermopylae. I won't go into the fact that the 35k were over 1,300 miles from home.

(iii) There was incredible cruelty inflicted but any civil war is brutal. Having said this figures like million plus are simple propaganda that has over time taken to real history. You only have to look at US civil war or how Turks dealt with Armenians. You don't need to go that far back. In extremely trying circumstances terrible things happen. Look at German Army and it's operations in the east or the Red Army and it's actions in Germany.

(iv) For me what is most significant aspect is how US leaned toward Pakistan. It indeed did what a ally does. It bent backwards to accomodate Gen. Yayha Khan and his government, Nixon had enormous respect for Gen. Yahya who was hard drinking, full blooded womanizing product of British Sandhurst Academy. Pakistani leaders before mid 1970s made very positive impact on their US counterparts. President Ayub Khan had also been in the same category.

(v) Today it is the Islamism that has caused the divergence between US and Pak. It is the Islamism that is wreaking havoc. This Islamism was begining to make impact inside Pakistan in early 1970s but really took off by end of the 1970s decade which coincided with Iranian Revolution. !980s and Afghan jihad pretty well established jihadism and the order we see today.

(vi) This change is evident in photos of what was relative liberal Pakistan before 1980 and the increasing Islamism, intolerance that creaped in over time. Alcohol was banned in 1977.

And just as referance in 1947 India invaded the princely state of Hyderabad which was simiar to Kashmir state only that the ruler was Muslim.

Hyderabad 1948: India's hidden massacre - BBC News

Do not for a minute think the US is a true friend of Pakistan. Islamism or no Islamism. Do not be so foolish.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There may well be records in Pakistan itself sufficient to convict living Pakistani Army officers and at least ruin the reputations of those dead. Declaring that you have to wait for the other side to give in is an excuse - and an admission that of its own accord, Pakistan doesn't care about justice.

Any half-competent lawyer is going to demand a higher standard of evidence than decades old field reports, not to mention issues of jurisdiction given that the alleged crimes occurred on territory that is no longer part of Pakistan. The trials are going to go nowhere without the two governments arriving at an agreement and passing the necessary laws in their respective parliaments to legalize the process of trials, punishment and reconciliation.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

That was their estimate, it was later learned it was more like 90,000 - that's the number of personnel Pakistan claimed were prisoners in Bangladesh, anyway.

Incorrect. 93,000 is the figure the Indian's tout to draw some Sparta like dazzle out of this so called victory. Which in fact was Bangla victory helped by India. The 93k figure includes men, women and children from West Pakistan. This included civilian workers, police, civil servants, their familes and the regular combat troops. The 35k figure was correct but as the fightinmg went on another division was moved 2,500 miles along Arabian Sea/Bay of Bengal route. This infantry division was moved minus it's heavy assets which remained in West Pakistan. In addition there were two wings of the paramilitary Frontier Corp.

Please refer to Indian newspaper report below. Regular army are listed as 55k. Rest of figures are there. In typical case of Indian revision of history even children and women are bundled to arrive at the 90k figure.

Below is the force deployment. I believe there were only two below par infantry divisions with mish mash of hand me down units from West Pakistan to beef up the eastern command. The real fighting units were in West Pakistan gaurding it against Indian attack.

 

[Solomon2]

Any half-competent lawyer is going to demand a higher standard of evidence than decades old field reports, not to mention issues of jurisdiction given that the alleged crimes occurred on territory that is no longer part of Pakistan

Can't see why locale will make a difference and yes, the field reports are very important indeed, as they implicate all who received them in the chain of command and did not act to remove the offending commander. The field reports don't have to be accurate to do so, just genuine.

The trials are going to go nowhere without the two governments arriving at an agreement and passing the necessary laws in their respective parliaments to legalize the process of trials, punishment and reconciliation.

Irrelevant. Laws are already on the books. What matters is whether Pakistan is willing to dig into the skeletons in its closet of its own accord.

Of course, Bangladesh should do the same. Perhaps Pakistan's actions will provide the necessary inspiration. And it may well stop accusations of "millions" dead from dominating the narrative.

 

[livingdead]

Not sure what is the point of this thread, all these points have been discussed many times here. Both sides have taken positions on debate and with no new evidence in sight(a new commission report, new book or new declassified document) its the same arguments again and again.
1. The seed of separatism is rooted in west pakistan domination of affairs which made bengali leaders look small. Some of the things said by west pakistani leaders were quite dismissive of bengalis. Whether there is truth in the accusation(economic disparity caused by west pakistanis) is not the point anymore if you consider bengalis as lesser human than you. Not allowing a bengali who has won an election to rule was crucial turning point.
2. Ms Bose's writing is discussed many times here. She is the voice of dissent, I dont want to ignore just because she is dissenting but why is her research considered only truth?
3. The death/rapes might be grossly exaggerated but it did happen systematically and in huge enough number for americans embassy staff to commit virtually coup against their bosses. All declassified documents suggest americans facing moral dilemma. On one hand they consider India as agreesor on other cant have blood of bengalis on their conscience.
I am pretty sure the holocaust deaths are slightly exaggerated in numbers but nobody says "only a few jews died here and there besides tonnes of christians and hindus and muslims died in the war, it was a war, people die, so whats so special about jews?" Nobody says that, right?

 

[Solomon2]

Incorrect. 93,000 is the figure-

BBC says 90,000, go write them.

 

[Abingdonboy]

What kind of scumbag do you have to be to attempt to whitewash the butchering and raping of millions of innocent people?

I see that many here are, all too conveniently, looking to focus purely on the scale of the military embarassment suffered by them or dispell any such notion but are entirely ignoring the most horiffic part of all this and why East Pakistan is now Bangledesh.

Written by Pakistan's ally at the time:

Our government has failed to denounce the suppression of democracy. Our government has failed to denounce atrocities. Our government has failed to take forceful measures to protect its citizens while at the same time bending over backwards to placate the West Pak[istan] dominated government and to lessen any deservedly negative international public relations impact against them. Our government has evidenced what many will consider moral bankruptcy,(...) But we have chosen not to intervene, even morally, on the grounds that the Awami conflict, in which unfortunately the overworked term genocide is applicable, is purely an internal matter of a sovereign state. Private Americans have expressed disgust. We, as professional civil servants, express our dissent with current policy and fervently hope that our true and lasting interests here can be defined and our policies redirected.


1. Here in Decca we are mute and horrified witnesses to a reign of terror by the Pak[istani] Military. Evidence continues to mount that the MLA authorities have list of AWAMI League supporters whom they are systematically eliminating by seeking them out in their homes and shooting them down


2. Among those marked for extinction in addition to the A.L. hierarchy are student leaders and university faculty. In this second category we have reports that Fazlur Rahman head of the philosophy department and a Hindu, M. Abedin, head of the department of history, have been killed. Razzak of the political science department is rumored dead. Also on the list are the bulk of MNA's elect and number of MPA's.
3. Moreover, with the support of the Pak[istani] Military. non-Bengali Muslims are systematically attacking poor people's quarters and murdering Bengalis and Hindus.

(U.S. Consulate (Dacca) Cable, Selective genocide, March 27, 1971

 

[bongbang]

2 million Biharis were present in East Pakistan + uncountable numbers of Bengali Razakar, Al Badar, Al Shams whom were aiding Pakistan dont leave them aside apart from West Pakistanis.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

BBC says 90,000, go write them.

Well it is 90k if you include the kids and women. If this was applied to US Army then it must have a strength of 4 million including family pet cats etc.

So yes, it is 90k but if your talking about military prisoners then it is only 55k. Both figures are correct in their own way but when 90k is presented as military then it is plain dishonest.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Can't see why locale will make a difference and yes, the field reports are very important indeed, as they implicate all who received them in the chain of command and did not act to remove the offending commander. The field reports don't have to be accurate to do so, just genuine.

Both accuracy and genuineness will be brought into question in a court of law.

Irrelevant. Laws are already on the books. What matters is whether Pakistan is willing to dig into the skeletons in its closet of its own accord.

What laws? If anything, there was a tripartite treaty under which 'reconciliation' was agreed upon by all 3 parties - Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.

Of course, Bangladesh should do the same. Perhaps Pakistan's actions will provide the necessary inspiration. And it may well stop accusations of "millions" dead from dominating the narrative.

Investigations and trials can't take place without Bangladesh ending their poisonous propaganda and lies about millions dead and hundreds of thousands raped, and subsequently coming to an official agreement with Pakistan that lays the foundation for the laws and processes required to facilitate independent and fair investigations and trials against individuals alleged to have committed atrocities.

 

[Solomon2]

I think it's astonishing that even when Kissinger learned that one of his former students had been slaughtered by the Pakistani Army he didn't let emotion take over and still decided to remain pro-Pakistan for geopolitical purposes - the communication channel to China.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

There was tiny Pak force of 35,000 men trying to contain a swarming country of 75 million.

Regular army are listed as 55k

They had Islamist Volunteer forces - the al Badr and Shams brigades supporting them all the while. The 93000 number is the armed combatant category. The civilians were repatriated forthwith.