Dassault Receives Qatar's Down Payment for Rafales

[Kamil_baku]

Yes,
I know Kuwait has already ordered typhoons from our defence giant BAE. However, outside Europe, BAE's Typhoons have so far been exported only to Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Austria(and soon Kuwait). That's just 4 countries, that's not really that impressive for such an advanced fighter which is considered the world's best pre 5th generation fighter jet. Even counting potential customers like Indonesia, Canada, Finland, Bahrain, Belgium and a few other countries with whom we are in talks for purchase of typhoons. Still I had though Qatar would have opted for the Typhoons since majority of its Gulf neighbours are opting for/already flying typhoons. Plus we seem to have more historical political influence/links with Gulf countries, so I expected us to bag this contract.

Plus I for once thought all European countries looking to replace their old fighters will automatically opt for the typhoon due to obvious reasons. But seems that's not always the case. Even countries like Poland with whom we are cooperating/helping patrol airspace against Russian aggression are not sure they would go for the typhoon as their next main fighters replacement. WTH?

Anyway let's see how things goes with other countries we are in talks with.

Congrats to the French though, you win some you lose some.

the problem is Typhoons is made by several europeans members, such as Spain, Germany...
In the beginning of this year, Germany banned military technology to ME countries... I believe, most of the countries are not willing to purchase it, because there is more possibility to get banned! Another reason that it is important to have your own jet as in France!!

 

[Blue Marlin]

Yes,
I know Kuwait has already ordered typhoons from our defence giant BAE. However, outside Europe, BAE's Typhoons have so far been exported only to Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Austria(and soon Kuwait). That's just 4 countries, that's not really that impressive for such an advanced fighter which is considered the world's best pre 5th generation fighter jet. Even counting potential customers like Indonesia, Canada, Finland, Bahrain, Belgium and a few other countries with whom we are in talks for purchase of typhoons. Still I had though Qatar would have opted for the Typhoons since majority of its Gulf neighbours are opting for/already flying typhoons. Plus we seem to have more historical political influence/links with Gulf countries, so I expected us to bag this contract.

Plus I for once thought all European countries looking to replace their old fighters will automatically opt for the typhoon due to obvious reasons. But seems that's not always the case. Even countries like Poland with whom we are cooperating/helping patrol airspace against Russian aggression are not sure they would go for the typhoon as their next main fighters replacement. WTH?

Anyway let's see how things goes with other countries we are in talks with.

Congrats to the French though, you win some you lose some.

only a hand full of countries can afford the the typhoon. countries are looking at a £90+ million each for a decent tranche3a i know indoneasia is looking at the closely, maybe @Indos knows more about this, as they are looking at su-35's as well. the uae may be looking at getting some. about 60 of them .

 

[Indos]

only a hand full of countries can afford the the typhoon. countries are looking at a £90+ million each for a decent tranche3a i know indoneasia is looking at the closely, maybe @Indos knows more about this, as they are looking at su-35's as well. the uae may be looking at getting some. about 60 of them .

We have decided Su 35 buddy, and the budget has been approved by the government. Typhoon still has a chance after 2019 though, but now since USA also offers us F 16 V, so the opportunity becomes smaller.

The possibility is more on engine though, there is huge possibility for European to power our KFX/IFX.

 

[mike2000 is back]

only a hand full of countries can afford the the typhoon. countries are looking at a £90+ million each for a decent tranche3a i know indoneasia is looking at the closely, maybe @Indos knows more about this, as they are looking at su-35's as well. the uae may be looking at getting some. about 60 of them .

Yes, we propose to even assemble the Typhoons in Indonesia if they choose it as their next front-line fighter.


Eurofighter Typhoon | Eurofighter showcases offer of indigenous capability for Indonesia
Eurofighter proposes localised assembly for Indonesian Typhoon | IHS Jane's 360

As for UAE, we will have to wait and see if BAE can convince them to choose the Typhoons. Especially when you consider we have very strong political connectionS/ties with the UAE.
Dubai Airshow 2015: RAF demos Typhoon to prospective regional customers | IHS Jane's 360
GCC states buying more from UK defence firms | GulfNews.com

However, as all know there is alot of politics/back deals involves in such complex military sales, we will have to wait and see if our politicians can maneuver well in this situation(like they hav for the past decades).
UAE told UK: crack down on Muslim Brotherhood or lose arms deals | World news | The Guardian

Finally our biggest competitor will still be our closest ally in Europe: France and its Rafale.
UAE Restarts Rafale Talks With France

 

[Blue Marlin]

Yes, we propose to even assemble the Typhoons in Indonesia if they choose it as their next front-line fighter.


Eurofighter Typhoon | Eurofighter showcases offer of indigenous capability for Indonesia
Eurofighter proposes localised assembly for Indonesian Typhoon | IHS Jane's 360

As for UAE, we will have to wait and see if BAE can convince them to choose the Typhoons.

indoneasia has a law where at least 35% must be invested in the country and the co production will be apart of that. as indos said in the post above it does look bleak

 

[mike2000 is back]

indoneasia has a law where at least 35% must be invested in the country and the co production will be apart of that. as indos said in the post above it does look bleak

Invest over 35%?? Hmmmm....that's quite alot for such a complex project. Co-production can still be negotiable though. They will have to review that part of their law, except they are willing to buy a very large amount of these jets(which i don't think they can afford to giving how expensive the Typhoons are). So,you might be correct it does looks bleak..

 

[Blue Marlin]

Invest over 35%?? Hmmmm....that's quite alot for such a complex project. Co-production can still be negotiable though. They will have to review that part of their law, except they are willing to buy a very large amount of these jets(which i don't think they can afford to giving how expensive the Typhoons are). So,you might be correct it does looks bleak..

it less than india's 50% investment. they maybe intrested in the ej-200 enige for the kfx

 

[DRDO KALI 10000]

Invest over 35%?? Hmmmm....that's quite alot for such a complex project. Co-production can still be negotiable though. They will have to review that part of their law, except they are willing to buy a very large amount of these jets(which i don't think they can afford to giving how expensive the Typhoons are). So,you might be correct it does looks bleak..

Even India has same law and Investment French accepted is 50 %.

 

[mike2000 is back]

We have decided Su 35 buddy, and the budget has been approved by the government. Typhoon still has a chance after 2019 though, but now since USA also offers us F 16 V, so the opportunity becomes smaller.

The possibility is more on engine though, there is huge possibility for European to power our KFX/IFX.

I agree that the opportunity is more on Engines. Rolls Royce already has very good customers in Asia, as its engines powers many military equipment in the region from Japan to Turkey to S. Korea, to Malaysia etc etc. Since Rolls-Royce already has agreements with Kawasaki Heavy Industries and IHI Corp in Japan to build and support its marine gas turbines, and with Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) which is building MT30 turbines into a Rolls-Royce designed package including auxiliary equipment. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force has taken more than 200 Rolls-Royce marine gas turbines, and the Kawasaki licence deal goes back to 1971.@Nihonjin1051 covering both manufacture and support.

As for Korea, Hyundai is already building the first MT30 for the country’s FFX-II frigate programme, which will have a wide range of other Rolls-Royce equipment on board as well. So i do believe we do have a good chance of getting involved in KFX/IFX Fighter program, since we already have agood presence/relations in the region.

Rolls-Royce Offers to Power Korean Trainer, Fighter
Rolls-Royce extends service capability in South Korea with Sunjin Entech Paternship – Rolls-Royce
Seoul's KF-X fighter jet mulling European offer - UPI.com
ADEX: GE, Eurojet battle for KFX engine deal
WIN-WIN relations.

Even India has same law and Investment French accepted is 50 %.

Maybe that's the reason France and India have been wrangling over the Rafale deal since 2011?

 

[DRDO KALI 10000]

Maybe that's the reason France and India have been wrangling over the Rafale deal for almost a decade now?

So, many other points, but major point was French were not ready to stand guaranty for Indian Assembled planes.
This gets solved now by of the shelf purchase
India also wants its own A to A missile ASTRA integration with Rafael, now at very last french gave node.

 

[mike2000 is back]

So, many other points, but major point was French were not ready to stand guaranty for Indian Assembled planes.
This gets solved now by of the shelf purchase
India also wants its own A to A missile ASTRA integration with Rafael, now at very last french gave node.

So France agreed to be a guarantor for Rafale assembled in India by HAL? If so, India did a good job getting the French to compromise on that point, since not many powers will agree to that to be honest.
About the Indian A to A missile, they also agreed to let India integrate it with the Rafale?

 

[Indos]

I agree that the opportunity is more on Engines. Rolls Royce already has very good customers in Asia, as its engines powers many military equipment in the region from Japan to Turkey to S. Korea, to Malaysia etc etc. Since Rolls-Royce already has agreements with Kawasaki Heavy Industries and IHI Corp in Japan to build and support its marine gas turbines, and with Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) which is building MT30 turbines into a Rolls-Royce designed package including auxiliary equipment. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force has taken more than 200 Rolls-Royce marine gas turbines, and the Kawasaki licence deal goes back to 1971.@Nihonjin1051 covering both manufacture and support.

As for Korea, Hyundai is already building the first MT30 for the country’s FFX-II frigate programme, which will have a wide range of other Rolls-Royce equipment on board as well. So i do believe we do have a good chance of getting involved in KFX/IFX Fighter program, since we already have agood presence/relations in the region.

Rolls-Royce Offers to Power Korean Trainer, Fighter
Rolls-Royce extends service capability in South Korea with Sunjin Entech Paternship – Rolls-Royce
Seoul's KF-X fighter jet mulling European offer - UPI.com
ADEX: GE, Eurojet battle for KFX engine deal
WIN-WIN relations.

The chance is 50 % though since KFX/IFX is designed to be powered by either American or European engine. Eurojet EJ200 and General Electric F414.

South Korea is likely to choose GE as GE has invested there so much there and also for geopolitical reasons.

The chance is actually on IFX (Indonesian version). Actually, Eurofighter consortium has already offered some technology on Eurofighter to be used in IFX fighter.

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"Another interesting reason to pick the Typhoon, Niel said, is the transfer-of-technology package.

“We have the know-how. The Eurofighter package is quite interesting as almost all of it can be used in IFX,” he said, referring to the KFX/IFX jet fighter development being pursued by South Korea and Indonesia.

Even if Indonesia decided not to buy the Typhoon, Niel said the avionics and electronics can be acquired to be used in the indigenous jet fighter program.

The Swedes and Russians are also offering various types of transfer-of-technology packages to sweeten their deals.

Spain’s long relations with Indonesia in the aerospace sector has given it the appointment as the representative of the four-country Eurofighter consortium, which also includes Germany, Italy and United Kingdom."

- See more at: Spain: Eurofighter Typhoon the best choice for RI | The Jakarta Post
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We welcome European Technology

 

[yugocrosrb95]

We have decided Su 35 buddy, and the budget has been approved by the government. Typhoon still has a chance after 2019 though, but now since USA also offers us F 16 V, so the opportunity becomes smaller.

The possibility is more on engine though, there is huge possibility for European to power our KFX/IFX.

If I remember correctly, F-16V is nearly 90 million USD, you can buy a Gripen with exact performance, but with lower heat signature at less than 60 million USD! Typhoon Tranche 3 is what 100-120 million USD and has stealth capability due to airframe utilizing RAM, frontal RCS is 0.5m2 ... F-16V has two or three times bigger RCS.

 

[DRDO KALI 10000]

So France agreed to be a guarantor for Rafale assembled in India by HAL? If so, India did a good job getting the French to compromise on that point, since not many powers will agree to that to be honest.
About the Indian A to A missile, they also agreed to let India integrate it with the Rafale?

No assembling of the shelf purchase only.
For Astra they agreed just recently assembling will be done by french them self. Also it needs some changes in software and structurally as well.

 

[Indos]

If I remember correctly, F-16V is nearly 90 million USD, you can buy a Gripen with exact performance, but with lower heat signature at less than 60 million USD! Typhoon Tranche 3 is what 100-120 million USD and has stealth capability due to airframe utilizing RAM, frontal RCS is 0.5m2 ... F-16V has two or three times bigger RCS.

Our Air Force has given 2 options to be picked by Government during F 5 replacement program, Su 35 and F 16 V. It means F 16 V offer has bitten Rafale/ Typoon/ and Gripen all together. And as we all know, our government then choose Su 35.

According to our Air Force officials both Fighters are chosen based on what our Air Force has been familiar with (They have operated both Sukhoi and F-16). They seems very satisfied with those fighters performance. And dont forget about Su 35 operation reach, that is fit with our need to protect our vast land and waters, especially in a condition where we actually still dont have enough fighters even after acquaring 16 F 5 replacement fighters.