Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[C130]

Spectra is an EWS that includes jammers, which also will be upgraded in the F3R upgrade. The RBE 2 radar won't have jamming capability in the short or mid term. That is aimed at the MLU around 2025 and most likely in combination with conformal arrays to provide a wide field of view.

Next live trial of EF upgrades:



Eurofighter Typhoon | FIRST STORM SHADOW MISSILE RELEASE FROM A EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON IS A SUCCESS

If one likes it or not, they are showing some good pace with the upgrades. AESA funding, Paveway IV, Meteor and Storm Shadow trials within one month.

are you a proponent for the proponent for the eurofighter???

baby is starting to get real teeth now for A2G

 

[sancho]

The company's aversion for HAL manifested itself two years ago when it was revealed that Dassault wanted to built some of its aircraft with Reliance Industries' new defence business.

An important part if true, I asked him if Dassault really wanted to build complete fighters at Reliance or just more parts, but didn't got a reply. In any case, it shows in what way the issue with HAL needs to be seen.

are you a proponent for the proponent for the eurofighter???

baby is starting to get real teeth now for A2G

No, I am a proponent for the best for India (IAF and Indian industry), that's why I'm looking at all sides to see the pros and cons.

 

[Iggy]

If one likes it or not, they are showing some good pace with the upgrades. AESA funding, Paveway IV, Meteor and Storm Shadow trials within one month.

You know in one thread @SpArK told me that India will sign the agreement regarding fighter aircrafts this financial year with or without Rafale.. At that time, I thought he was joking.. But reading about the sudden upgrades of Eurofighter now I am confused whether he is joking or not!!

 

[C130]

An important part if true, I asked him if Dassault really wanted to build complete fighters at Reliance or just more parts, but didn't got a reply. In any case, it shows in what way the issue with HAL needs to be seen.



No, I am a proponent for the best for India (IAF and Indian industry), that's why I'm looking at all sides to see the pros and cons.

I see. what are you thoughts on the Super Hornet for India.
I know it's not as capable as the Rafale/EFT, but for the cost it seems like it would meet most of IAF needs.

 

[Pichkari]

I see. what are you thoughts on the Super Hornet for India.
I know it's not as capable as the Rafale/EFT, but for the cost it seems like it would meet most of IAF needs.

Its a bit more than just meeting needs.
American weaponry comes with a lot of strings attached.A real headache for india.
It wouldnt be wise to buy our main front line weapons from usa.

 

[C130]

Its a bit more than just meeting needs.
American weaponry comes with a lot of strings attached.A real headache for india.
It wouldnt be wise to buy our main front line weapons from usa.

times have changed.
and the goal is get India self sufficent right
give you the blue print and know how to make the GE-414 and other goodies

if you can build the F-18 Advance Super Hornet for less than $80 million that's a win win

plus the Next Generation Jammer will be fielded by 2021 so that should be just as good as Spectra

 

[Pichkari]

times have changed.
and the goal is get India self sufficent right
give you the blue print and know how to make the GE-414 and other goodies

if you can build the F-18 Advance Super Hornet for less than $80 million that's a win win

plus the Next Generation Jammer will be fielded by 2021 so that should be just as good as Spectra

The advantages don't outweigh the costs in this case.
Its not simply the question about quality of american weaponry.There are geo-political considerations as well
Thers a long history of sanctions.USA- india relations have only recently improved.For a major part of history things were bad.
So there's some trust deficit.
Plus it bound to piss off the russians as well.
Simply put the current policy is to buy american only when there are no other options left,or there is a great technological difference,neither of which holds true in in this case.


Now things would be different if usa was to offer f22 i guess

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I had been hearing that rumour of F18 advanced super hornet being discussed for offering under Make in India program. Moreover for some time this speculation gained weight as with the proposed winding of Kaveri program there seems to be completely no new indigenous program to replace Kaveri or to build a new engine. The speculation led to 2 options .. one with Snecma M88 blue print and complete tech absorption and other was GE 404/414 with an ability to further develop them under a JV. For some time, Snecma M88 relucatnce is being cited but US offering a complete tech blueprint for GE 404/414 had been gaining weight especially with US gov keeness to get the max out of indian def purchases pie.

To the query for F22, thats highly unlikely atm as Senate committee for clearance would never approve that in the first place. the more easier route was F35 program (naval) as EMALS would be offered to IN (again speculative as IN showed interest but expectation are there for clearance of its sale to India is growing especially as now it has opened its office for electromagnetic divison in India).

Even though its like comparing apples with oranges, a advanced F18 super hornet is not a bad deal if teh complete blue print of tech is getting transferred. But then again, will Obama walk the last mile and get approval to share such tech with India? Only time will state that.

The bigget issue would be how india would align itself in geopolitical situation with such a deal? thats something we can only guess

 

[Major Shaitan Singh]

Canada rates Eurofighter, Super Hornet, Rafale as equally capable to F-35 on most missions

A new Canadian government report suggests other fighter jets are just as capable as the Lockheed Martin F-35A at fulfilling the nation’s most likely mission needs, potentially opening the door to a competitive acquisition process to replace a fleet of 77 Boeing CF-18s.

Four aircraft – the F-35, the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon – were compared in the report, called the Evaluation of Options for the Replacement of the CF-18 Fighter Fleet.

Each was assessed on its ability to carry out six mission sets including defence of Canadian airspace, responding to an “international event”, such as the Olympics, in Canada or a terrorist attack, peace enforcement, humanitarian disaster relief and state-on-state war fighting.

All aircraft were deemed low-risk candidates to perform each of the missions up to 2030 and beyond, except in fighting another peer nation. In that category, all the aircraft were deemed a higher risk platform beyond 2030 and none distinguished itself.

Canada does not intend to fight state-on-state wars and rated that contingency as highly unlikely. In the state-on-state war fighting mission, the range was from low to significant in the first timeframe and medium to high in the second timeframe “largely due to the higher level of potential threat confronting fighter aircraft in that mission and the evolution of those threats”, the report says.

“The mission needs analysis undertaken as part of the evaluation of options makes clear that Canadian engagement in future state-on-state conflicts will be highly unlikely,” the report says.

It is more likely that Canada will join in on coalition military actions not “clearly defined state-on-state warfare or explicitly humanitarian assistance missions but rather, as in the case of Libya or Kosovo, something in between,” the report says.

For now, the Harper Administration in Canada still intends to buy 65 F-35s beginning in 2020. Its third annual report on the cost of potentially replacing its fleet of CF-18s with the jet assumes an average per-unit cost of $88.9 million over the period of acquisition. That tallies up to a total $45.8 billion over the life cycle of the fleet, a $141 million increase over the estimate in the 2013 report.

The analysis assumes that Canada will lose 11 F-35As over the fleet’s expected 30-year service life due to normal attrition. "The cost to replace these lost aircraft could be in the order of $1 billion," the report says.

At present, the Canadian government has only $76 million set aside for programme contingencies, far short of the $1 billion estimate for replacement aircraft. The report says that contingency budget is “low for a project of this scope and size”.

That could force Canada to lower the number of F-35s it purchases, the report suggests. That could affect the overall programme cost. Lockheed has promised to bring the per-aircraft cost for the conventional takeoff and landing variant of the jet below $100 million by 2019, but that will require a dramatic ramp in production after 2016 that relies heavily on non-US purchases.

 

[Parmanu]

I had been hearing that rumour of F18 advanced super hornet being discussed for offering under Make in India program. Moreover for some time this speculation gained weight as with the proposed winding of Kaveri program there seems to be completely no new indigenous program to replace Kaveri or to build a new engine. The speculation led to 2 options .. one with Snecma M88 blue print and complete tech absorption and other was GE 404/414 with an ability to further develop them under a JV. For some time, Snecma M88 relucatnce is being cited but US offering a complete tech blueprint for GE 404/414 had been gaining weight especially with US gov keeness to get the max out of indian def purchases pie.

To the query for F22, thats highly unlikely atm as Senate committee for clearance would never approve that in the first place. the more easier route was F35 program (naval) as EMALS would be offered to IN (again speculative as IN showed interest but expectation are there for clearance of its sale to India is growing especially as now it has opened its office for electromagnetic divison in India).

Even though its like comparing apples with oranges, a advanced F18 super hornet is not a bad deal if teh complete blue print of tech is getting transferred. But then again, will Obama walk the last mile and get approval to share such tech with India? Only time will state that.

The bigget issue would be how india would align itself in geopolitical situation with such a deal? thats something we can only guess

no way. rafale deal is going on rather well. you can not expect this govt to sign anything without looking at it from a fresh perspective. who knows what anthony did with MMRCA. I (personally) am honestly happy anthony didn't sign the MMRCA. THAT would have been disastrous for us. even compared with the delay we have faced so far.

F-22 for IAF is absolute bullcrap ! F-22 is not even for UK, Japan. it was never ever on the table. nor will be.

F-35 makes sense for India when it is naval as pointed out by you. F-35 for IAF will be a nightmare. just imagine the maintainence and repair horror. mkis, mig29s, mirages, jaguars, upcoming tejas. not counting the mrca.

with navy, yes, mig29s for fighter role, f35 for SEAD, jamming, other roles. plus the f35 can coordinate with the US CBGs and the jap/singapore naval resources. it makes perfect sense for the IN.

 

[sancho]

You know in one thread @SpArK told me that India will sign the agreement regarding fighter aircrafts this financial year with or without Rafale.. At that time, I thought he was joking.. But reading about the sudden upgrades of Eurofighter now I am confused whether he is joking or not!!

These upgrades have not much to do with us and if the original timeframe of 2015/16 still would had been the aim, they wouldn't have any importance either. But the fact is, Dassault has delayed things and that makes the EF look far more interesting now than it was 2-3 years ago during the L1/L2 evaluation.
In May or June I would have given the EF good chances for a new bid too, but it seems their cost reduction offer was not too impressing and that the government didn't found a way to reconsider as they did in other tenders. The new DM gave the first official statement that the Rafale remains the only fighter under consideration. That means, unless Dassault mess this deal up, we will see a final selection till march (which I predicted some month ago, when the media kept talking about a fast decision after the elections), what we still don't know is, how the final package will look like.

 

[Iggy]

These upgrades have not much to do with us and if the original timeframe of 2015/16 still would had been the aim, they wouldn't have any importance either. But the fact is, Dassault has delayed things and that makes the EF look far more interesting now than it was 2-3 years ago during the L1/L2 evaluation.
In May or June I would have given the EF good chances for a new bid too, but it seems their cost reduction offer was not too impressing and that the government didn't found a way to reconsider as they did in other tenders. The new DM gave the first official statement that the Rafale remains the only fighter under consideration. That means, unless Dassault mess this deal up, we will see a final selection till march (which I predicted some month ago, when the media kept talking about a fast decision after the elections), what we still don't know is, how the final package will look like.

If we had opened a parallel negotiation with Eurofighter also, it would have given Rafale guys enough pressure to make the deals faster and more beneficial to us. Now they are saying they need to negotiate some more on this deal. And I really dont understand why we need to invest this much money for a stop gap fighter? I mean we will go for 5th gen fighter in next decade and we will have another Mig 21s in our hands..

 

[sancho]

I see. what are you thoughts on the Super Hornet for India.
I know it's not as capable as the Rafale/EFT, but for the cost it seems like it would meet most of IAF needs.

No, it doesn't comply to several requirements, be it flight performance, IRST, ToT of critical techs..., it is cheap because it is far less capable and that's why Boeing offered the growth options at the end, but if India funds them, the cost would be far higher too and that with limited tech transfer.
The F16 was the better US offer, since it's flight performace, the IRST, the more capable EW of the Block 60 as well as the costs would had made it preferable. On the other side, the same weapon pack and industrial limitations, the fact that PAF knows the fighter and could had evaluated the UAE versions, made it a no go. Sad, the F16IN would had formed a great hi lo combo with the MKI, just in operational terms.
M-MRCA mainly was a test how serious the US is with opening up to India and providing proper arms and techs. It might be at a better level compared to what you give Pakistan, but far below to what we have on the table from Europeans, Russians or Israelis. And as long as the US laws restricts weapons, capabilities and industrial advantages to India, the US vendors won't win large tenders.

If we had opened a parallel negotiation with Eurofighter also, it would have given Rafale guys enough pressure to make the deals faster and more beneficial to us. Now they are saying they need to negotiate some more on this deal. And I really dont understand why we need to invest this much money for a stop gap fighter? I mean we will go for 5th gen fighter in next decade and we will have another Mig 21s in our hands..

Well, the decision to take the L1 to prefered negotiations in 2012 was the right one from our side, but we couldn't expect that Dassault would take so long to comply to the requirements and would start the HAL issue. Back then the biggest concern for delays were cost negotiations.
M-MRCA is not a stop gap fighter! That's a common misunderstanding, because the initial idea of the MRCA tender was to get a fast to induct fighter to counter LCA delays.But with the M2K production running out and the possibility to see what the US actually are ready to offer, the new tender had far different aims. Advanced capabilities, future potential and a high priority on industrial benefits were now more important than cost-effectivity or that the winner was fast to induct. That's why the 2 most costly fighters, that however offered the most capability and industrial advantages were prefered.
It's also a common myth, that having 5th gen fighters means, that they will be used in any mission all the time. Apart from the US, that doesn't care about getting bankrupt, all nations will use 4.5th gen fighters for the bulk of the operations. Even China is mainly inducting J10 and J11 versions for the same aim and that's where M-MRCA has it's importance for IAF and where LCA simply is no alternative. It was a mistake to go for a light class fighter in the first place, but we thought we could counter the lack of capability with large numbers. The delays now rules large numbers out and that makes the addition of capability to the fleet important again.

 

[halloweene]

Just for info, 3 Rafales are flying tests with F3-R software atm

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Just for info, 3 Rafales are flying tests with F3-R software atm

gud news.. whats your views now after reading sancho's take on EF 's suitability for India now as MMRCA itself is long delayed... You see or hear any murmurs for signing by Mar 15?