Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sathya]

Now that s it all about to be signed,

next thing to concentrate is

what version are we getting with what customization ?

 

[thesolar65]

Official: India nears deal for French fighter jets

NEW DELHI (AP) — India is close to an agreement to buy Rafale fighter planes from France, an Indian defense spokesman said Tuesday. The 12 billion euro ($15 billion) deal for 126 of the jets would be France's first foreign sale of the combat-tested planes.

France and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation have been trying for years to sell the jets abroad without success. The Rafale has been in service for the French Air Force since 2006.

Defense spokesman Sitanshu Kar said Tuesday that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar met with his French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, on Monday as part of an official visit to India.

"All issues related to defense were discussed, including the Rafale," Kar said. "Both sides decided to adopt a fast-track approach wherever there are differences."

A French defense official, who was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly, also said that the two defense ministers agreed to accelerate negotiations.

"We can say this morning that the negotiations are on the cusp of conclusion," the French official said.

French President Francois Hollande, speaking briefly to reporters outside Paris, said "good progress" has been made, but that "it's necessary to be prudent on such contracts. When it's finalized, we can speak about it. Until now, silence has rather been the right method."

India has become the world's biggest arms importer, with an economic boom enabling it to modernize its military. Major arms manufacturers are wooing the country as it replaces its obsolete Soviet-era weapons and buys new equipment. India already has a fleet of the older Mirage jets, France's last big-name fighters.

India's air force has around 700 fighter aircraft and is exceeded in size only by the United States, Russia and China.

Growing worries about China's fast-expanding military and the decades-old mistrust of Pakistan have fueled India's impetus to add heft to its defense forces.

The Rafale has struggled to find an export market because of its high cost, complexity and a design that was a marked shift from the Mirage.

Competing jets from the United States and Russia, such as the General Dynamics F-16, McDonnell Douglas F-15 and Sukhoi Su-27, have grabbed a large slice of the market.

Deals for Brazil, Libya and Switzerland to buy the Rafale have all fallen through, often at the last minute.

In 2007, Morocco opted for F-16s instead of Rafales, with French media blaming bungled negotiations by the French government involving the lack of a single dedicated coordinator to handle talks with Rabat.

France has used Rafales in several combat missions in recent years: over Libya in 2011, in Mali last year and currently as part of the international campaign against Islamic State militants in Iraq from a French air base in the United Arab Emirates.

Official: India nears deal for French fighter jets - Yahoo News

 

[sancho]

Those 2 things costs should be included

That's your wish, but not the reality, so lets stick to realities and not just conclusions. Dassault constantly states that certain options are available if a customer requires it (CFTs, hight thrust engines, HMS, IRST, additional weapon integration...) and is ready to fund it.

& also if India & france team up to build next gen IRST

IF they go fo any joint development, it's a welcomed solution, but so far the French side has shown us the opposite and any development needs time, which then again confirms that no IRST will be available for at least the first squadron.

& that was their mistake & mis management from their side as RBE 2 aesa radar / air to ground capabilty give the
rafale clear edge of typhoon in MMRCA as who would have waited for 2018 to have those capabilty

True, but now we only get the first MMRCA squad around 2018, so we can get a superior Captor-E with A2A and A2G modes, the swashplate and around 50% more T/R modules at the same time.
The delays are the crucial part now, because it gave the EF the chance to catch up and to the delivery date now, it's capabilities have changed by far.

& saudis have clearly stated that next block of typhoon should have aesa radar , so do OMAN

None of them funded the AESA development, so they remain dependent on the EF partners and when the AESA will be developed and available. The Export AESA now seems to be available around 2017/18, while the partner versions in time for the Tornado replacements. So if the Saudis or Oman wants AESA, they can order EFs from 2017/18 onwards with that capability, but their orders are for T3As partially diverted from UK's original order, so a retrofitting of AESA seems to be more likely unless additional orders will be made.

no !!

it wont replace but might be used in addition to it .

i have asked many members about it

Just think about it logically and you will understand it, because they serve the same purpose and it would be counterproductive if you use a Brite Cloud decoy to lure the SAM away from the fighter, while using the towed decoy that makes the missile follow you again. Brite Cloud and LEA (or the system that the Russians develop for Pak Fa), are meant to combine the active capability of a towed decoy, with the capability of Chaffs to divert the missile away from the fighter.

as if i had said it is radar based in my previous post

Which only shows that you don't understand it, the current MAWS in EF is radar based, PIMAWS is an IR MAW system just as DDM, not to mention that the EF 2020 evolution plan includes passive MAWS as an option too. So that neither is something specific for Rafale only, nor is it uncertain for the upgrade path of the EF and as shown, it offers the same IR imaging capability as well as DIRCM compatibility as DDM NG, DAS of the F35, or the systems the Russians have in their latest fighters.

i didnt get this point at all plz clarify that part

EF's CFTs has the capacity of 3000l = all 3 current fuel tanks, which means it can do any kind of mission without the need of external fuel tanks.
Rafales CFTs have the capacity of just 2300l = which is roughly enough to do A2A missions, but for any A2G mission, additional external tanks are required.

The Rafale CFTs are simply not big enough to replace external fuel tanks completely, but can be used to further extend the range if required. That's why the French tested it in deepstrike configs with CM's, while the CFTs of EF or of the Silent Hornet, are meant to replace external fuel tanks in all basic A2A and A2G roles.

what version are we getting with what customization ?

We get the Rafale F3+ with AESA, DDM NG, FSO-IT, MICA and AASM
Possible customizations could be IRST, HMS, Litening, SPICE PGMs and SATCOM
If the licence production in 2018/19 is based on the F3R standard, we will get upgraded radar modes, avionics and METEOR capability too.

Anyway, Are we going to get good news before New Year??

That depends mainly on Dassault, because the issue is not on a government to government level, but as in the case of Rafale exports to the UAE dependent on negotiations and clearances from Dassault. Even the French government was unhappy about Dassaults price and negotiation policy in the past, which is why this visit and the media hype around it doesn't change anything. We need to get to a conclusion with Dassault, then we can see when the deal can be signed.

 

[thesolar65]

That depends mainly on Dassault, because the issue is not on a government to government level, but as in the case of Rafale exports to the UAE dependent on negotiations and clearences from Dassault. Even the French government was unhappy about Dassaults price and negotiation policy in the past, which is why this visit and the media hype around it doesn't change anything. We need to get to a conclusion with Dassault, then we can see when the deal can be signed.

Suppose the deal is signed today and if India wants some off the self planes right away, then how many can Dassault supply? May be India can ask "Give us some used ones to practice and you can replace it with new ones later on"?

 

[sancho]

Suppose the deal is signed today and if India wants some off the self planes right away, then how many can Dassault supply? May be India can ask "Give us some used ones to practice and you can replace it with new ones later on"?

The production order for Rafale till the end of 2017 includes 7 x Airforce versions for French forces and 18 Rafales for export customers, so a total of 25 fighters could be available for a short term procurement. I doubt that French forces will give away some of the few AESA included Rafales they got so far, so getting more 2nd hand Rafales is doubtfull too. What's more interesting is what happens if the news about Qatar buying 24 Rafales is true, because that might delay induction of our first squad.

 

[mehboobkz]

Suppose the deal is signed today and if India wants some off the self planes right away, then how many can Dassault supply? May be India can ask "Give us some used ones to practice and you can replace it with new ones later on"?

This is absurd!
Because the Simulator exists.

France’s DGA procurement agency has accepted the 1st F3.2 simulator upgrade, to the first 2 cabins at the simulation centre in Saint-Dizier. The Rafale Transformation Squadron in Saint-Dizier has a total of 4 cabins, and the 2 upgraded simulators will faithfully replicate the F3 Rafale’s ability to use AM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, ASMP/A nuclear missiles, the advanced Reco-NG surveillance pod, and the Damocles targeting pod.

 

[thesolar65]

The production order for Rafale till the end of 2017 includes 7 x Airforce versions for French forces and 18 Rafales for export customers, so a total of 25 fighters could be available for a short term procurement. I doubt that French forces will give away some of the few AESA included Rafales they got so far, so getting more 2nd hand Rafales is doubtfull too. What's more interesting is what happens if the news about Qatar buying 24 Rafales is true, because that might delay induction of our first squad.

So India's hand are tied virtually for say 1 year? Only short term scenario is having some more SU-30 and a couple of LCA in a year?
@mehboobkz

 

[sancho]

So India's hand are tied virtually for say 1 year? Only short term scenario is having some more SU-30 and a couple of LCA in a year?

The remaining MKIs of the initial order will be delivered till the end of 2017 and a squad of LCA MK1s + 1 x Rafale squad if we finally can fix the deal. Anything beyond these orders will take more time. Only EF T3As could be procured faster and in higher numbers.

 

[C130]

$15 billion and contract by March I wouldn't get your hopes up.
this whole ordeal has been unpredictable and full of rumors so far.

 

[DrSomnath999]

IF they go fo any joint development, it's a welcomed solution, but so far the French side has shown us the opposite and any development needs time, which then again confirms that no IRST will be available for at least the first squadron.

thales & Samtel have already team up to supply IRST for rafale .

for next gen IRST PIC oil did mention french are planning for next gen QWIP based irst .Rest i cant say anything more

regarding 1st squadron of rafale having IRST that needs to be seen whethere they are having it or not ??

i cant say /or agree with you at the moment now if 1st squadron which is going to be produced in france to have IRST or not better wait as they dont produce their IRST for rafale at the moment






.

True, but now we only get the first MMRCA squad around 2018, so we can get a superior Captor-E with A2A and A2G modes, the swashplate and around 50% more T/R modules at the same time.
The delays are the crucial part now, because it gave the EF the chance to catch up and to the delivery date now, it's capabilities have changed by far.

those things even if happen are no use for us now as we have selected the winner & Rafale is the winner .

noone cant do anything about it until & unless the deal is scrapped

so those things are just like sour grapes for us .

PLUS we have to fund our own radar development for captor e which fulfills our own requirement & that would have delay the deal in induction of aesa radar in our planes & price even further in long run

"so rather accept what is readymade available for us a true mutirole capable fighter" plus if we go for MLU by 2025 /26 then it's cappabilty would be somewhat at the same level with CAPTOR E with conformal arrays/ GaN T/r modules /with EA/ESM capabilty

Just think about it logically and you will understand it, because they serve the same purpose and it would be counterproductive if you use a Brite Cloud decoy to lure the SAM away from the fighter, while using the towed decoy that makes the missile follow you again. Brite Cloud and LEA (or the system that the Russians develop for Pak Fa), are meant to combine the active capability of a towed decoy, with the capability of Chaffs to divert the missile away from the fighter.

sorry i am just saying what typhoon's fanboys are claiming .!! it would be used with TOWED decoys

But all i can say at the moment better wait for the deal to be signed from partner states / customer s then only we can know it would replace towed decoys or would be used alongside with it .




It is primarily marketed for Gripen at the moment now

I know & agree with you Expendables RF decoy is much better way to deal with homing missiles than towed decoys

Which only shows that you don't understand it, the current MAWS in EF is radar based, PIMAWS is an IR MAW system just as DDM, not to mention that the EF 2020 evolution plan includes passive MAWS as an option too. So that neither is something specific for Rafale only, nor is it uncertain for the upgrade path of the EF and as shown, it offers the same IR imaging capability as well as DIRCM compatibility as DDM NG, DAS of the F35, or the systems the Russians have in their latest fighters.

i just cant understand why are you assuming i dont know that fact current MAWS in EF is radar based.

i have not even mentioned about current MAWS in prevoius posts at all in the 1st place.

we were discussing about PIMAWS & that was our topic of discussion

EF's CFTs has the capacity of 3000l = all 3 current fuel tanks, which means it can do any kind of mission without the need of external fuel tanks.
Rafales CFTs have the capacity of just 2300l = which is roughly enough to do A2A missions, but for any A2G mission, additional external tanks are required.

The Rafale CFTs are simply not big enough to replace external fuel tanks completely, but can be used to further extend the range if required. That's why the French tested it in deepstrike configs with CM's, while the CFTs of EF or of the Silent Hornet, are meant to replace external fuel tanks in all basic A2A and A2G roles.

oh yes
i do get your point now

Rafale CFT tanks each 1,150L & each drop tank is around 1250L tank
meanwhile typhoonCFT each is 1,500L & each drop tank is around 1000L

but still i like to tell even if CFT Typhoon is incompetent to carry 3 cruise missile in extreme long range for instance greater than 4000km but Rafale can do it as it can carry 2 EFTS extra with CFT as it has 5 wet stations
EFT max range with 3EFTS =4000km
Rafale max range with 3EFTS =4000km lets take average for both by citing WIKI as refference


For eg from ambala to beijing

why amabal a as it is going to be inducted with 1st rafale squadron

but i wanna how much distance can each drop tank of rafale add to it's km covered then only my claim be justified

CHEERS

 

[sancho]

thales & Samtel have already team up to supply IRST for rafale

No they don't, it's for FSO-IT with the IR channel as an option. Samtel hopes that the JV can bring either the production or the development of the IR channel, but unless India or another export customer orders it, Samtel will only produce the FSO-IT with the TV channel.

regarding 1st squadron of rafale having IRST that needs to be seen whethere they are having it or not ??

Again look at the facts! IRST is not in production at the moment and Thales will not start the production again for just 18 of them, while the production of FSO is meant to be part of the offsets anyway. It's far more logical and economical to retrofit IRST produced by Samtel to that first squad at a later upgrade stage, just as the first Su 30K squad was meant to be upgraded to MKI level at a later stage.

those things even if happen are no use for us now as we have selected the winner & Rafale is the winner .

We never selected Rafale as the winner, but as the prefered negotiation partner. EF is still in the game, but is dependent on the Indian government to talk to them. If Dassault mess things up too far, India can simply go and start negotiations with the L2.

PLUS we have to fund our own radar development for captor e

What own radar? We either can opt for Radar 1+ or the more capable versions for the partners.

"so rather accept what is readymade available for us a true mutirole capable fighter" plus if we go for MLU by 2025 /26

LOL, what now? Accepting what is available now or dreaming about things that could be availbe in a decade? You can't have both, unless you take the EF, since it is promissing more in a mid term solution (in 4 to 5 years).

sorry i am just saying what typhoon's fanboys are claiming .!!

So you prefer things that fanboys claim, than thinking about it logically on your own?

i just cant understand why are you assuming i dont know that fact current MAWS in EF is radar based.

i have not even mentioned about current MAWS in prevoius posts at all in the 1st place.

we were discussing about PIMAWS & that was our topic of discussion

Because you keep repeating that PIMAWS is radar bases, which is wrong.

but still i like to tell even if CFT Typhoon is incompetent to carry 3 cruise missile

Which hardly is important, since not even Rafale might be used with 3 cruise missiles at a single fighter, nor will we aim to attack targets several 1000s KM away with fighters that has to pass half of China.
The bigger downside is, that the EF can't carry a single cruise missile config, based on it's design flaw at the centerline, but then again, that has nothing to do with the advantage of the CFTs.

 

[DrSomnath999]

No they don't, it's for FSO-IT with the IR channel as an option. Samtel hopes that the JV can bring either the production or the development of the IR channel, but unless India or another export customer orders it, Samtel will only produce the FSO-IT with the TV channel.

Samtel to supply IRST for IAF Rafales

Samtel is now moving into new frontiers.IRST is a standard kit in the Rafale.
This passive sensor detects enemy aircraft at ranges of 60-80 kilometres through the heat (infrared) they emit. IRST is entirely stealthy, since it emits nothing. “Thales plans to offer the IRST to the IAF on a ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ basis. This category of procurement (specified in the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2011, or DPP-2011) requires an Indian partner to absorb critical, high-end technologies and develop capabilities within India. Thales has told the IAF that Samtel Thales Avionics would do 50 per cent of the design and development work in India,” Kaura said.

..:: India Strategic ::. DefExpo 2012: Samtel to supply IRST for IAF Rafales

For FSO IT 's FSO TV max range is around 60km so no way it is going have 80km range so one can imagine it's for IRST channel basically

We never selected Rafale as the winner, but as the prefered negotiation partner EF is still in the game,. but is dependent on the Indian government to talk to them. If Dassault mess things up too far, India can simply go and start negotiations with the L2

You lecture others about reality & facts

meanwhile you your self put your head in sand ignoring the facts & reality


it's only their claims meanwhile iAF is negotiating with none other than dassault & the deal would be signed
thats it










.

What own radar? We either can opt for Radar 1+ or the more capable versions for the partners.

i hope you must have read this thread of mine

why RBE2 aesa radar was the safest bet for india in MMRCA evaluations

there i have stated radar 1 which is for export would not have any enhanced range compare to captor M so basically
it would in the range of 200km

& for partnerstates it is radar 2 which would have enhanced range but it has no fixed timelines when they would induct it for themselves they fail to mention that

& also you keep on ignoring factors which i have pointed out in that thread in conclusion part

why rbe 2 aesa radar was the safest bet for india in MMRCA evalutions??

LOL, what now? Accepting what is available now or dreaming about things that could be availbe in a decade? You can't have both, unless you take the EF, since it is promissing more in a mid term solution (in 4 to 5 years).

& meanwhile you want us on dreaming about those things which typhoon cant gurantee when they would induct it for themselves like Operational ready aesa radar & A/G capabilites by 2018 you want to to keep us waiting for that

& on top of it day dreaming about capabilites which they wont have in future capabilites in MLU like GaN t/r module aesa radar & EW suite plus CFTS which they dont give priority by themselves

funny how you impose you useless logic on other without doing a proper research by yourselves regarding the feasibility of all those tall claims

& thats not all forgeting the requirement of IAF for MMRCA & also capabilty of existing fighters & their potential upgrades

as SU 30 mki is already an air superiority fighter & would be upgraded with AESA radar which would have much
better detection range than Rafale but lacks deep penetration ground attack capabilty due it's unstealthy design

so rafale which has both better long range air to ground & good air to air capabilty is capable of going in high threat
areas thanks to it's adavnced EW suite , plus improved passive detection & situatinal awareness capabilty

so it is more justified to get a multirole fighter with better A/G capabilies than a better AIr superiority fighter with
limited A/G capabilty like that of typhoon

So you prefer things that fanboys claim, than thinking about it logically on your own?

Fanboys irrespetive of which ever jet they route for know in much detail why ?? becoz they would have asked the same thing to others more knowledgable than them

BUt i think logically and i have posted it clearly before which you keep on ignoring that as nowhere typhoon consortium said that they have plans to replace towed decoys with expendables decoys in future

so thats why i have said they have not signed yet the deal ,it's for gripen basically .with signing of deal we can know whther it would replace towed decoys or not

Because you keep repeating that PIMAWS is radar bases, which is wrong.

Roflmao

yeah yeah i was claiming that it's clearly visible from my prevoius posts

Which hardly is important, since not even Rafale might be used with 3 cruise missiles at a single fighter, nor will we aim to attack targets several 1000s KM away with fighters that has to pass half of China.
The bigger downside is, that the EF can't carry a single cruise missile config, based on it's design flaw at the centerline, but then again, that has nothing to do with the advantage of the CFTs.

then for whom are we procuring rafale for ???
pakistan
CAN ANYONE TRANSLATE THIS ???
& it's translation
CAN ANYONE TRANSLATE THIS ??? | Page 3

plus check the annual review source of RAF which i have posted earliear ,they have clearly stated that CFT is not in their agenda for short/medium term











CHEERS

 

[halloweene]

Some points i'd like to clarify about latest posts.

1- IRST on Rafale is a kit you mount or not, like a bomb for example.
2- About Range, Rafale has inherently a longer range than Typhoon (less fuel consumption, bigger fuel fraction). Why do you think Typhoon need a fuel tank for its demo?
3- For long range missions, Rafale will stay subsonic and use 2000L tanks (btw those have been tested up to mach 1.2)
4- Anecdotic, but from a pilot. Rafale can supercruise in A2A configuration with 3 supersonic tanks and missile load but it will need one crank of PC to pass transsonic regime.
5- SATCOM is integrated. French CEAM is finalizing the solution used (eg. which satellite system will be used etc.) but the industrial solution is implemented on two testbed Rafales.
6- A New HMD is being integrated Scorpion would be my best guess as Thales has bought visionix (and btw is intending a procedure to Rockwell for patents violations)
7- Somnath has been given a very nice ppt explaining the future of Rafale program on a french forum (and how it will articulate with FCAS), his guess of MLU is not baseless
8- Having talked to engineers, MELBAA program has two main objectives : multipanel technology (aka physically dividing the antenna with parallel processing chains) and inducing GaN modules for RBE2"NG". Multipanel tech is first step for "smart skin" or cheek antennas.
According to this http://www.upmdie.upm.es/seminario_cei/2009/presentaciones/xIndra _Seminario_CEI_2009.pdf
peak power of Captor E is quite similar to RBE2. I admit it will have a greater aperture due to larger number of modules, and there are many other factors (duty cycle, and even more important signal processing)...

Cheers

 

[Abingdonboy]

Exporting the future Indian Rafale?

While the contract is under negotiation, the French Defense Minister told the Indian press that HAL could ,in turn, export the licensed product , "HAL will have the complete technology and the license to manufacture additionnal aircrafts which could be exported [...]

From:
http://www.journal-aviation.com/actu...ien-exportable


@sancho

 

[sancho]

Samtel to supply IRST for IAF Rafales

As I already said, that's the aim according to the RFP requirements, but the current offer is for FSO with IR channel as an option:

it's only their claims meanwhile iAF is negotiating with none other than dassault & the deal would be signed
thats it

Which is wrong on so many levels! IAF is not negotiating anything with anybody, MoD is and they are still talking with the EF partners and the consortium as we have seen several times after the elections, which is even logical since they were never rejected, but selected as L2 and not L1. Rafale was selected as L1 and therefor Dassault is the "prefered partner for the negotiations", but that's it.

there i have stated radar 1 which is for export would not have any enhanced range compare to captor M

Which is logically wrong as well, since we know that the Captor E will use the same GaAs modules but in 50% higher numbers, therefore MUST have higher detection range.

Operational ready aesa radar & A/G capabilites by 2018 you want to to keep us waiting for that

It doesn't matter when the partners induct the radar, it only matters when it can be available for us, that's the same case for METEOR in Rafale, which will be inducted by French forces only by 2018, while it could be available earlier if an export customer had funded the integration as proposed to the UAE earlier. And we have to wait till 2018 anyway, no matter which fighter we use, that's the crucial part that has changed now, because of the 2 years delays that Dassault has caused.

1- IRST on Rafale is a kit you mount or not, like a bomb for example.

Which only means, that French forces can use the IR channel from an older Rafale that has it, on a new Rafale that comes without it.
For India however that has no relevance, since the IR channel is not in production anymore. What counts is, when can they be produced again? Because that decides when the first Rafales with IRST capabilty can be available for India.

7- Somnath has been given a very nice ppt explaining the future of Rafale program on a french forum (and how it will articulate with FCAS), his guess of MLU is not baseless

Of course it's not baseless, but the point is that he is talking about MLU capabilities that will be available from 2025 onwards only and not F3+ or F3R that would be important for India. Nor does it counter the fact that the EF can have similar capabilities (wFoV radar, GaN modules, radar EA capability...) before the Rafale even around 2020. That's why the upgrade prospect of the EF is currently better than Rafales, because all major upgrades for Rafale are planned only around 5 years later than for EF. That's a fact that is not deniable, Rafale is better today, can be surpassed by EF around 2020 and the Rafale can catch up again only by 2025.

peak power of Captor E is quite similar to RBE2. I admit it will have a greater aperture due to larger number of modules

Exactly, similar power, more modules, higher FoV, which logically will give the EF the radar advantage, till side arrays or smart skin will be available for Rafale.

Exporting the future Indian Rafale?

Yes, similar to the Do 228 or Chetak helicopters that HAL builds for other countries. Any Rafale export on Asia for example could be produced in India, just as exports in S. America were aimed to be produced in Brazil if they had chosen it. But in any case, when we select it, we will produce parts for any future export for sure. The wing production at Reliance for example could be used by Dassault for exports too, but reduces the costs of the fighter in general. Same could be the case for FSO by Samtel and other parts by HAL or BEL.

The question is only which other countries will buy Rafale to give us export benefits? More interesting would be the joint development and production of upgrade parts, since that would include the 180 Rafales of French forces. If we had gone for a joint HMS for example, which would be produced in India but selected by French forces, we would benefit far more than waiting for export orders.