Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

I think u r right f-16 is old frame and it retirement come when f-35 come in picture from 2015. If iaf wants f-35 then gives usa a big order which they cannot ignore it like 200 plane it is huge no. may be usa provide tot and give us production permission. I dnt think no other country go for that much no.

Sorry mate they arent't even sharing their techs with Israel, or GB and won't do it with us! GB wants to buy nearly 150 and paid the most for development, but they are still only a buyer not a real partner. Also keep in mind that F35 is still under development and already facing delays and with our old Migs we don't have time to wait.

us may not give full TOT but if it provides the source code(like israel)then indian systems(like ecm,mission computers,avionics,weapons)can be integrated.while tot for aesa will be limited ,airframe parts can be locally manufactured.this scenario is remote though

We don't even get source codes for F16 IN and F18 SH, so for sure not for F35, they will never allow licence production of their latest fighter in India with our ties to Russia.

 

[Gabbar]

All set for flight evaluation of multirole combat aircraft

BANGALORE: The Indian Air Force’s bid to acquire 126 medium multirole combat aircraft has got a much-needed push.

The Defence Ministry has issued “the letters of invitation for flight evaluation trials” to six companies that are vying for the $10-$12-billion contract.

They are the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company, which pitches in with Eurofighter Typhoon, America’s Lockheed Martin (F-16 Falcon) and Boeing Integrated Defence System (F/A-18F Super Hornet), Russia’s Mikoyan (MiG-35), Sweden’s Gripen (JAS-39) and France’s Dassault (Rafale).

The ball is now in the IAF’s court “to speedily complete the flight evaluation and indicate its choice,” say Ministry officials.

Between July and March next, the IAF will have to undertake the trials, initially in India to test the performance of the aircraft under local conditions and then in the countries of their origin. Armament trials will be conducted in the country of origin as bringing weapons to India could be problematic.

For the evaluation trials, the IAF is likely to form two teams composed of test pilots, flight test engineers and maintenance crew, drawn primarily from the Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment and, to a lesser extent, from fighter squadrons. The teams are also likely to include officials of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (to look into technology transfer and industrial partnership) and the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification.

Besides enabling the IAF test pilots to try out the aircraft, the trials will allow flight and ground test crew to know about the maintenance and overhaul facilities required.

Once the IAF makes its evaluation, some time in 2010, commercial negotiations could begin. The terms indicate that the first aircraft will have to be delayed 48 months after a contract is signed.

Time-consuming, expensive


The time-consuming and expensive process — it could cost each competitor $5 million — will test each aircraft whether it can measure up to the performance indicators set forth in flight manuals in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh (under normal conditions, in hot weather and at a high altitude).

Each competitor is sending two aircraft. Informed sources have indicated that Rafale will be one of the first to be evaluated. It will fly into Bangalore in the first week of September.

Officials of the companies told The Hindu that they had initiated a survey of the locations, where their aircraft would be tested.

 

[indiatech]

First Rafale Export Sale Advances as UAE Detail Specifications

Negotiations for the sale to the United Arab Emirates of 60 Dassault Aviation Rafale combat aircraft passed a major milestone today, as the U.A.E. government submitted its specifications to France. This will allow detailed contract negotiations to begin on prices and delivery dates, possibly leading to contract signature by year-end. This government-to-government deal is valued at 6 to 8 billion euros, depending on the exact content of the weapons, support and spares package included in the contract. Long-running talks on the contract had been coasting while Abu Dhabi, whose air force will operate the aircraft, finalized the technical aspects of the aircraft. These notably included which version of the Snecma M-88 engine, which long-range air-to-air missile, and which radar the UAE wanted, and these technical uncertainties prevented representatives of the two governments from opening formal contract negotiations.


The UAE specifications call for a more capable aircraft than the latest F3 standard in production for the French air force and navy. The UAE have asked for engine thrust to be increased to 9 tonnes each (instead of 7.5 tonnes for the current version), which will ensure a very high power-to-weight ratio given that empty weight is less than 10 tonnes (increasing to 24.5 tonnes maximum take-off weight). They also want an AESA radar and improved electronic countermeasures being developed by Thales, and the MBDA Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile. Initial deliveries could begin in 2013 if the contract is signed by year-end. Below are the related statements issued this morning by the UAE government and French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

UAE Submits Technical Specifications for Rafale to France

The Government of France has received the technical and operational specifications required in the French Rafale jet fighter from the UAE Armed Forces within the framework of the ongoing negotiations between the governments of the UAE and France. The date of signing the deal, which could be one of the most important export contracts of the aircraft so far, is set to be fixed in pursuant of results of the financial negotiations.

 

[indiatech]

United Arab Emirates Closing in on Rafale

The Rafale fighter could be one step away from securing its first export order, following submittal last week to the French government of final technical requirements for a 6-10 billion euro ($8.3-13.8 billion) 60-aircraft purchase by the United Arab Emirates late last week.Dassault Aviation officials say the document signifies basic agreement on the specifications, permitting the two sides to proceed to negotiation of pricing and financing terms. The French also will have to help find a buyer for the UAE's fleet of 63 Mirage 2000-9 fighters, which the Rafale will replace. Laurent Collet-Billon, head of French armaments agency DGA, says the objective is to sign a contract by year's end. But Dassault Chairman/CEO Charles Edelstenne, mindful of a last-minute loss to the Lockheed Martin F-16 in Morocco in 2008, cautioned "against crying victory before the last whistle blows."The UAE wants an aircraft reflecting the most advanced current Rafale standard, including active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, Meteor beyond-visual-range air-air missile, Damocles targeting pod, and an enhanced OSF forward infrared search and track system and missile warning receiver. These improvements, including the AESA, are to be introduced into the French armed forces starting in 2012. Meteor integration is slated to begin only in 2013-14 for service entry in 2017-18, but military officials say this date can be moved up if necessary. The UAE envisions replacing its first Mirage 2000-9s in 2013.The UAE is also demanding a higher thrust version of the fighter's Snecma M88 engine to suit the hot-and-high conditions prevalent in the Middle East. A test program for the new powerplant, aimed at raising thrust to 9 metric tons from 7.5 tons currently, was announced in the run-up to last week's Paris Air Show. The main focus of the program is a new high-pressure core design that will begin running in September as part of a package of improvements, known as the Pack CGP-9T, intended to reduce M88 ownership costs for the French armed forces.A demonstrator for the low-pressure part of the engine began testing this spring. The test program would enable the higher-power version to be available within three years of contract signature, Snecma executives say.For the time being, the question of funding the M88 upgrade, estimated to cost 250-300 million euros, remains unresolved. So far, the French government says it has no requirement for the higher-thrust version, which means the UAE would have to pick up the tab - perhaps along with other interested customers like Kuwait, with a similar requirement. But the government had initially dragged its feet at funding the AESA, forcing industry to bear the cost of development through deferral of a six-aircraft Rafale order, only to reinstate the order last year.

 

[sancho]

Typhoon T3A To Have Mechanical Array Radar

It seems like AESA development for Eurofighter Typhoon will face more delays.

The bulk of Eurofighter Tranche 3A aircraft will likely initially be fitted with the Captor M mechanically-scanned array radar, as the four-partner nations try to agree on a common road-map for integrating future radar technology.

Paris 2009 Special Report by AVIATION WEEK

Tranche 3B which must be negotiated after 2011/12 might get it, but will (or can) IAF take the risk and wait till then to decide about MMRCA?
Doubtful, imo this could be a big setback for EF in MMRCA, because you can't justify the high costs of that aircraft without an AESA radar and more delays.

 

[sajidkhan]

hey can any1 tell me which fighter will iaf probably choose???
it seems like the competition is bw f-18sh and mig-35!
PLZ also give reasons with the aircraft u r mentiong!

 

[Haanzo]

IAF’s search for jets to begin in B’lore
Kalyan Ray: New Delhi: DH News Service

The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) search for 126 multi-role fighters in a mega $10 billion defence deal is expected to kick start from Bangalore where the planes will undergo the first round of trials in a month or two.


The field evaluation trial will begin from the Yalehanka air base in Bangalore where the aircraft’s performance, system and tolerance of humidity trials will be tested. The process is likely to commence in July.

The fighters in contention are USA’s F-16 Falcon from Lockheed Martin and F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing, Sweden’s Gripen (JAS-39), Rafale from France’s Dassault Aviation, Russian MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon from European consortium EADS.
Barring Typhoon and Grippen, other four had flown in the Bangalore air show in February last.

The no-cost, no-commitment trials would be in sequence, starting from Bangalore, sources said, adding that it might take two years to complete the trials.
Each company will be asked to bring two-three planes for the trials.
From Bangalore, the planes will go to Jaisalmer for hot weather and weapon trials.
The final phase of the trials would be conducted at Leh to judge their performance in cold weather and high altitude conditions.

After the Indian leg of the trial is over, there could also be another weapon-firing trial outside India, possibly in the manufacturing country.
Interestingly, though one of the competitors, Rafale, reportedly went out of the race due an incomplete tender form, it is believed to be back in the race, thanks to the diplomatic intervention from France.

These 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft will be one of the mainstays for the IAF along with Su-30 and indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).
The IAF targets to bolster its squadron strength up to the sanctioned position of 39.5 squadrons by inducting MMRCA, LCA and Su-30s.

Former IAF chief Fali Homi Major had admitted that the IAF force strength was down to 34 squadrons, which is expected to go out even further in the coming years due to phasing out of aircraft of old vintage.
However, if the MMRCA deal happens in time and the LCA comes to the service by 2010-11, the IAF can hope to have the sanctioned strength by 2017 and a little more by 2020.

While 18 MMRCA will be purchased in flyaway conditions, the remaining 108 will be manufactured at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under licence.
The MMRCA deal will also aid the IAF to simplify its inventory management rather than maintaining a large number of different aircraft.


IAF’s search for jets to begin in B’lore

finally can take pics of rafale in india

 

[sancho]

What exactly will be tested during the trials, I mean 2 years are a loooong time for testing or?

 

[rhythm_guy]

I hav readout sumwhere in the thread that india Got 20around mig-35......is it true?

 

[Haanzo]

I hav readout sumwhere in the thread that india Got 20around mig-35......is it true?

sir it was mig-29k and these are yet to be delivered and the mig-35 is based on mig-29k

@sancho

lots of money involved and hence lots of time is required .....for a much details about the tests ...here the f-18 as example

For the uninitiated, the above tableaux give a detailed explanation of the forthcoming flight evaluation process and schedules for the F/A-18F Super Hornet Block 2 that is likely to be conducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) sometime this August over a two-week period. Close to 30 sorties lasting 45 flight-hours are expected to be flown, with half the sorties expected to be devoted to the evaluation of the Raytheon-built APG-79 AESA radar. Of all the six contenders for the IAF's M-MRCA requirement, the Super Hornet, the Rafale F-3 and the MiG-35 are expected to be subjected to the most stringent flight evaluations as only these three contenders are being offered with AESA radars. Of these three, only two--the Super Hornet (with the APG-79) and the Rafale F-3 (with the THALES-built RBE-2)--are in operational service. The JAS-39IN Gripen NG on offer to the IAF is also expected to be fitted with the ELTA Systems-built EL/M-2052 AESA radar by the time the IAF evaluation team proceeds to Sweden. The Block 70 F-16IN Super Viper from Lockheed Martin is being proposed with the Northrop Grumman-built APG-80 AESA radar that is also on board the F-16C/D Block 60 of the UAE Air Force, but in the absence of any such in-house available aircraft for the IAF's flight evaluations, Lockheed Martin will reconfigure one of its F-16 Block 60 flight simulators into the Block 70 configuration for the IAF flight evaluation team, a process similar to what Boeing IDS had done for the P-8I LRMR/ASW platform's evaluation process

 

[Screaming Skull]

Hi,

Looks like Shiv Aroor has started a 6 part series on the MMRCA contenders in his blog, where he compares the perceived strengths and weaknesses of the 6 aircrafts in contention from the IAF and MoD pov. Seems interesting. Today he has started with F-16IN. So, here we go!

MMRCA Part 1 - The F-16IN Super Viper​

The handful of IAF pilots who got a chance to fly one of the UAE Block 60 Desert Falcons at Yelahanka in February had fantastic things to say about the aircraft. They were sold on everything from the sidestick to the the phenomenally well-designed bubble canopy, and from the gorgeous low altitude handling characteristics to the add-on IR pod. And this is quite separate from their experience of the aircraft's cockpit avionics. That's something that can scarcely be overstated. Based on my personal discussions with pilots, Defence Ministry officials and others familiar with the aircraft, here's a run down of the F-16's strengths and weaknesses in the current MMRCA competition. Remember, this is an overview of the opinion in establishment circles on the aircraft, and not merely a reiteration of facts already in the public domain.

STRENGTHS

There is simply no denying the F-16's operational record, a statistic completely unmatched by any other fighter plane flying today. The figures speak for themselves: 13 million flight hours, out of which 400,000 hours have been spent in combat. The type has flown over 100,000 combat missions and has been proven to be a true multirole fighter. The type has scored 72 air-to-air kills in the combat missions it has been flown on. This is an aspect that enjoys very serious credence within decision-making circles. The fact that the fighter is owned and operated by 24 nations is another source of reassurance. The air force also views this as a de-risking aspect of any potential purchase. The aircraft comes equipped with an AESA radar (the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80) that the IAF absolutely adores. The IAF also feels the MIL-STD-1773 data bus on the fighter will be an enormous and valuable legacy leap, and this has been a point of some discussion during internal presentations made on the MMRCA contenders. The aircraft's cockpit ergonomics has the IAF in raptures, including former chief S Krishnaswami, who flew an F-16I during a visit to Israel in 2004, and could barely stop talking about what an amazing cockpit it had. One of the F-16's principal strengths is also its unit price. At under $30-million a piece, the IAF views the F-16 as a highly capable fighter at a highly competitive purchase price. The fact that there have been 52 follow-on buys of the type are considered an indicator to the IAF that ownership/lifecycle costs are also competitive. The IAF doesn't miss the fact that the F-16 is one of only two aircraft in the sweepstakes that fits the original weight specs laid out in the original qualitiative requirement -- QRs which were substantially altered later to allow in heavy fighters. Finally, (and probably most importantly!), the F-16 has the backing of the United States government, the target of India's most ambitious current foreign policy initiatives. Needless to say, anyone who downplays that aspect, is doing so at their peril.

WEAKNESSES

Let's get straight to what the IAF and Defence Ministry don't like at all about the F-16. The fact that there is a steady phase-out/replacement programme underway in the US, despite Lockheed-Martin's repeated insistence that there are four large busy production lines. The fact that the US isn't buying anymore Falcons is enough to put serious doubts into India's mind. Picking up early on this, Lockheed has managed to convincingly drive home the point that the F-16 is the logical bridge to the F-35 Lightning II, though this is viewed by the IAF as too crafty. It's almost a fake pledge, considering the gargantual clearances and procedures that would be necessary for India to be considered a buyer of a fifth generation fighter plane. Lockheed's pitch about the F-35 has therefore backfired in parts. A senior IAF officer, recently retired, says "While we were initially only doubtful, the F-35 pitch proved beyond doubt that Lockheed is trying to squeeze the last few drops out of its F-16 production lines, and the Indian requirement is too mouth-watering for them to ignore." The fact that the aircraft is operated by a lot of other countries, ironically, has a minor backlash effect as well on the IAF -- some of the top brass feel that an ambitious new purchase like the MMRCA contract, should be for a unique and exclusive aircraft, not one that is owned and operated by a huge number of other countries (including Pakistan -- the radar signature debate holds credence, incidentally), even though they do reluctantly agree that under the bonnet, the F-16IN is hardly comparable to previous variants of the same type. Finally, relations with the Obama administration have cooled considerably compared to the phonecall-a-minute diplomacy with Bush Jr, and this itself has somewhat blunted the throbbing needle pointing to Washington, even though the President has made it clear that he plans to keep up the evolving strategic dialogue with India.

LiveFist: MMRCA Part 1 - The F-16IN Super Viper

 

[Screaming Skull]

MMRCA Part 2 - The Swedish Underdog​

Saab's tagline for the Gripen India campaign ("The Independent Choice") tells you a great deal about the depth of recognition by the company that the competition will most definitely be decided on political lines. Politically, the Gripen is squarely the odds-on underdog in the competition. The fact that it is an "independent choice" hasn't impressed an establishment that refuses to budge from the perception that the purchase of 126 fighters is as much a definitive politico-strategic investment as it is the topping up of depleting squadron strength of the IAF. This is not unreasonable, and even IAF pilots believe that the MMRCA contract is a chance to change a lot of things. Some view the Gripen's marketing as defensive, almost yielding too much to the overwhelming perception that India will buy American. But the aircraft itself has a great deal going for it.

STRENGTHS

Apart from the fact that is undoubtedly an excellent airplane, ironically, the Gripen's biggest play is the fact that it is a relatively independent choice. Within the government, many believe the Gripen is a safe bet at a good price, and one that (like the F-16), fits in with what the IAF had originally asked for. There also exists a belief within the government that the people at Saab have pioneered and fast-tracked the Demo NG programme principally for the MMRCA programme, and taken this to mean a level of commitment. The IAF has also received and been impressed by independent testimonials from the air forces of Hungary and Czech Republic about turnaround and ownership costs of the Gripen C/D. The IAF is also quite impressed with the Gripen's permutation configuration of systems, sensors and avionics, not to mention a quantum leap in the computer/bus (including Link 16), GCAS, satellite comms, payload capacity and EWS between the Gripen C/D and the Gripen NG. The IAF also likes the very nifty Cobra helmet mounted display system. The Gripen's pitch that it can be turned around on the ground (engine, systems) the fastest among all contenders makes it perfect for the IAF. The Gripen team has also squarely pitched the airplane as the a perfect complement to the "big-hitter" Su-30MKIs, implying that India's growing Flanker fleet could be inadvertently rendered superfluous if the heavy contenders in the MMRCA -- the F/A-18, the Typhoon or the Rafale -- were chosen for induction.

WEAKNESSES

Unfortunately, the Gripen's weaknesses are many. The biggest, I've outlined in the intro. The fact that is provides no strategic fruits is a big downer. The fact that Sweden promises not to interfere, but rather provide full autonomy to the Gripen India programme is simply too little in the Indian context. In fact, there are senior officers in the IAF who believe that Saab flatters itself in the belief that Sweden is powerful enough to fiddle with the strategic/military autonomy of a country like India, especially since the MMRCA provides for a total transfer of technology that very nearly precludes the possibility of any meaningful interference post-contract. Another weakness is the aircraft's country of origin itself. Provided that the Saab proves to be the best aircraft in the field evaluation tests (FETs) -- which it well might -- will any Indian government, let alone the Congress -- have the guts to buy Swedish ever again? If anyone has any doubts about the Bofors ghost, cast a glance at the farcical joke being played in the Indian Army's efforts to purchase 400 towed 155-mm artillery guns. It's been on since 2003, with an unprecedented four trial rounds. The final results laid out that the SWS Bofors gun was on top throughout. At the last moment, then Army chief General JJ Singh gave in to a firm political warning and called for a re-tender of the entire competition. It probably speaks volumes that he's now the politically-appointed Governor of Arunachal Pradesh. A stunned Bofors still hasn't recovered from the shock. Saab, which close links with the Bofors company, knows just what a liability being from Sweden is forever more in India. Worse, there's no sidestepping it. Worse still, even the IAF recognises that. The tragedy is, of course, that the Gripen has absolutely nothing to do with Bofors.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/mmrca-part-2-swedish-underdog.html

 

[Arun tevar]

There is a general assumtion that the MIG-35 is not a tough a.c compared to american couter parts.But the fact is that it is the most flexible a.c available & could be further developed with 5th gen techs and avionics being developed for FGFG.

 

[rhythm_guy]

as well all know IG all set to. buy an American ac on russian platform..... pakistan also having F-16 into its inventory..... so India should not go for F-16IN

 

[Screaming Skull]

MMRCA Part 3 - The Future Fulcrum​

The way the Russians have been behaving over a multiplicity of ongoing defence contracts, it would seem as though they had no real interest in the MMRCA deal. The complexion in ties has changed so deeply since the 1980s, that there is a very palpable degree of acrimony in pretty much every dealing with the Russians these days. They'll release photos of smiling Indian MoD bureaucrafts with their bureau officials, but behind the scenes, things are almost always ugly. Yet, Russia has gargantuan leverage with India, based entirely of course on the huge number of deals yet to be completed. The MiG-35 comes across as not convincing enough, and Russia has still to prove that it is a reliable after-sales supplier. The one thing that the Russians have managed to pull off, is to convince the IAF that the MiG-35 isn't just any old Fulcrum. It's the Fulcrum.

STRENGTHS

One of the principal draws of the MiG-35 is commonality of inventory type. Alongside the Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks and the IAF's upgraded MiG-29s, a lot of senior MoD officials believe the MiG-35 would be a sensible choice that would translate into real savings in infrastructure and trainign costs. The IAF holds its MiG-29s in high esteem. In fact, the MiG-29M/M2 and subsequently the MiG-35, were developed based in part on informal but organised feedback from IAF pilots on what was required to make the MiG-29 a truly multipurpose airplane. The IAF says it is eagerly awaiting more information and a demonstration of the FGA-35 variant of the Phazotron Zhuk-AE AESA radar, yet untested. In demonstration flights, IAF pilots have also been given an expansive look at the MiG-35's highly unique optronic locator system (OLS), which one IAF pilot (who flew the MiG-35 at Aero India 2007) said surpassed similar gear on some of the other aircraft. The OLS consists of an infrared search and track sensor in on the nose of the aircraft, and a ground attack sensor fitted next to one of the intakes. The IAF has been given demonstrations of the RD-33MK turbofan, and is very pleased with what Klimov has managed to achieve with it, against some fairly difficult deadline and legacy odds, though the IAF and MoD were terribly irked and continue to be so with Russia's decision to sell jet engines to Pakistan for the JF programme -- something that could spell real trouble in the final decision (Remember, other countries sell to Pakistan as well, but India reserves great expectations from Russia, especially since Moscow has articulated these loyalties more than once). Rosoboronexport has managed to convince the IAF quite effectively that the MiG-35 is indeed a quantum technological leap from the legacy Fulcrum. Politically, India continues to have enormous strategic ties with Russia, notwithstanding a certain fraying in recent times. Russia has always supported India politically during operations, and has never dared to question India's use of its equipment. Finally, the Russians have the most well-entrenched and experienced lobby within the IAF and government. And extravagant acts of politico-strategic altruism are not unprecedented when it comes to Indo-Russian defence ties.

WEAKNESSES

The MiG-35 programme has a single prototype (the ubiquitous No. 154 -- I flew in this at MAKS 07) and that too one without a full complement of the avionics/sensor package listed in the offered configuration. As a result, the IAF is of the view that a lot of the MiG-35's capabilities, as articulated by its engineers and pilots, are still theoretical, even though they may be perfectly real once the full package is integrated and available. With field evaluations to begin anytime now, there's a sense of apprehension about just how MiG will demonstrate the aircraft without testbed platforms -- which obviously throws up the question, will the IAF consider technological parameters on testbeds rather than on a fully integrated fighter plane? The MiG-35 is rigged with the MIL-STD-1553 electrical data bus, which could prove a serious downer, considering that some rival contenders come with the MIL-STD-1773 optical fibre based data bus, which the IAF is seriously interested in. A factor that almost needs no mentioning is that Russia has carelessly squandered any time it was given to prove its reliability, but persisting with its putrid reputation for being fickle, even heartlessly apathetic, when it came to after-sales support. Even the IAF's existing MiG-29s suffer from serviceability issues as a result of Russia's refusal to cooperate quickly on spares and aggregates support. Something that could go majorly against the MiG-35 is also the fact that the Russian Air Force has no immediate plans to place orders for the aircraft, and is instead going the Super Flanker way with greater gusto. Politically, the government feels there is little that can be politically gained from Russia, considering that strategic ties are already mature, even at a saturation level. Secondly, Russia's position in international politics has plummetted relentlessly since the 1990s, and the country offers no strategic advantages anymore. Third, buying from Russia would be a full-frontal on the US, which -- like it or not -- is India's principal foreign policy holy grail.