Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[SQ8]

A-ha, so much for all the U.S. haters. Seems that the French too are "hopeful" that there will be no problems. Seems we still need to separately negotiate with the U.S.All the talk about how by selecting the French, we were escaping from U.S. clutches seems to be just a mirage. We still need the U.S. it seems, only our leverage is much reduced now.

Doesn't MBDA hold a stake in the ALARM missile??
That can be offered instead of the HARM.

 

[Raje amar]

A-ha, so much for all the U.S. haters. Seems that the French too are "hopeful" that there will be no problems. Seems we still need to separately negotiate with the U.S.All the talk about how by selecting the French, we were escaping from U.S. clutches seems to be just a mirage. We still need the U.S. it seems, only our leverage is much reduced now.

it did not mean what you say. it just mean there are few wepons those are of US origin and can also operate from Rafale. you have a choice either you can choose French wepons, US wepons or you have the source code of the raders, design a missile yourself & use it from Rafale like Astra.
but no US spares so that can block the supply to have liverage on you.

as simple as that.

 

[Bang Galore]

it did not mean what you say. it just mean there are few wepons those are of US origin and can also operate from Rafale. you have a choice either you can choose French wepons, US wepons or you have the source code of the raders, design a missile yourself & use it from Rafale like Astra.
but no US spares so that can block the supply to have liverage on you.

as simple as that.

Actually it pretty much means what I said. If India were to only operate French missiles & bombs, pretty soon the IAF would be bankrupt & then the planes would be as unusable as if we were sanctioned. C'mon man, the French didn't even want to integrate Israeli weapons on the M2k & got their way with the GoI.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Engines and radar to blame for MiG-35 failure in MMRCA contest

 

[praveen007]

Engines and radar to blame for MiG-35 failure in MMRCA contest
.
Radar and engine performance
shortcomings were to blame
for the MiG-35 failing to make the shortlist in
India's medium multi-role combat aircraft
(MMRCA) contest.
The revelations are contained in feedback from
India to Russia's arms export agency,
Rosboronexport.
The MiG-35's radar, the Zhuk-MAE active
electronically scanned array (AESA), from Russia's
Phazotron, failed to achieve the required
acquisition and tracking ranges. And its Klimov
RD-33MK engines also fell short of the Indian
performance criteria.
Speaking to the media on 3 August, Vladimir
Barkovsky, chief of MiG's engineering centre, said:
"The Klimov and Chernyshev [engine companies]
briefed [India] at length about their capabilities and
intentions to improve their offering, but
unfortunately their arguments were not taken into
account."
Despite this, the same RD-33MK met Indian navy
requirements and powers the newly-built
MiG-29K/KUB fighters being delivered to the
service.
Barkovsky also defended the Zhuk-MAE AESA
radar, pointing out that the prototype nature of
the model fitted to the MiG-35 meant that it did
not meet the tender specifications, particularly
regarding range.
He said: "We told the tender committee that this
particular unit is experimental, and that in future
we will make a larger radar antenna [capable of
being used at a longer range]."
Barkovsky pointed out that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is yet to be fitted with a working AESA
radar.
"While the Russians demonstrated their radar
fitted to the real fighter and working, [Eurofighter]
demonstrated their radar on a helicopter," he
said.
"The positive outcome of the Indian tender is that
we made a huge effort on the radar development
and demonstrated what nobody expected of us,
and thus surprised many, including some in our
home country." Barkovsky added.
The company will continue the MiG-35 project, he
said, and look for other export .

 

[the rafter]

French Rafale jet deal with UAE seen by year-end-report
Aug 5 (Reuters) - Negotiations have resumed to sell Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighterjets to the United Arab Emirates, and a deal could be sealed between September and the end of the year, French daily La Tribune said on Friday.

Dassault Aviation could not immediately be reached for comment.
Last month, French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said the United Arab Emirates was France's best bet in the short term for clinching an export deal for the Rafale.
The French company has still not found a foreign buyer for the multi-role Rafale, billed as one of the most effective but also one of the most expensive fighter jets in the world. (Reporting by Dominique Vidalon; Editing by Will Waterman)

French Rafale jet deal with UAE seen by year-end-report | Reuters

 

[jha]

a rafale costs 8.5 Bill/63 = 135 Mill. a piece to 11.33 Bill/63 = 180 Mill...

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

a rafale costs 8.5 Bill/63 = 135 Mill. a piece to 11.33 Bill/63 = 180 Mill...

The price breakup seems to be like
60 million USD for Plane
the rest is for the French Flair!
I still believe that we should have gone with JAS 39 Gripen.Common engine with the Tejas,produced by a company based in a fellow NAM country and cheap!

 

[Yeti]

That price includes the missiles too! not only the Rafale jet

 

[Raje amar]

The price breakup seems to be like
60 million USD for Plane
the rest is for the French Flair!
I still believe that we should have gone with JAS 39 Gripen.Common engine with the Tejas,produced by a company based in a fellow NAM country and cheap!

85 mil per piece flyaway cost,
also India is asking for the life time support of spares & training with facility. This will definately raise the cost a piece to at least 130 mil.
We are forgetting that the 10 bil cost was approved around 7 years back taking in to consideration the infletion the contract cost will touch 20 bil to current cost.
Most of these deals do not include wepons which we have to pay over & above the contract cost.
So in totality the final spending on MMRCA will be around 26 bil..,.,.......

 

[AC&I]

85 mil per piece flyaway cost,
also India is asking for the life time support of spares & training with facility. This will definately raise the cost a piece to at least 130 mil.
We are forgetting that the 10 bil cost was approved around 7 years back taking in to consideration the infletion the contract cost will touch 20 bil to current cost.
Most of these deals do not include wepons which we have to pay over & above the contract cost.
So in totality the final spending on MMRCA will be around 26 bil..,.,.......

With the discussions so far IMO the trend seems to be towards purchase of Rafale. We might end up paying in excess of at least $20 billion (could end up being a lot more than it). Does anyone has specifics of how the ToT might help the current LCA and the prospective MCA program with this Rafale purchase with the given terms of references in the contract discounting any subsequent required contracts.

 

[sancho]

Actually it pretty much means what I said. If India were to only operate French missiles & bombs, pretty soon the IAF would be bankrupt & then the planes would be as unusable as if we were sanctioned. C'mon man, the French didn't even want to integrate Israeli weapons on the M2k & got their way with the GoI.

It actually means that the Rafale can generally use other NATO weapons as well, if there would be a necessity (Rafale is doing SEAD with AASM)! Rafale already uses US Paveway LGBs and is evaluating Lockheed Martins Scalpel LGB as an addition to it's weapon package as well. If the US approves other US weapons and the French, or an export customer wants another weapon, there is no problem with integrating it and keep in mind that there were reports about the UAE asking for integration of SLAM-ER on Rafale too, which imo would be great for India as well.
Also since no US fighter was shortlisted anyway, it doesn't make much sense in saying French weapons, because the important weapons on Rafale and EF will be the same, no matter which one India will choose:

BVR missile - METEOR
LGB - Paveway, or Sudharshan
Cruise missile - Storm Shadow / Scalp
ATGM - possibly Brimstone

The only difference comes in the WVR missle field, where the EF is also offered with European missiles and not cheaper US counterparts. AASM is offered for Rafale as well, but has no counterpart on the EF so far and it falls between a bomb and a missile, which makes it more capable, but also more costly than normal bomb kits, but IAF will procure these only in addition to the normal LGBs. If the upgraded Mirage even gets MICA, AASM and Scalp, the weapon commonality will make it even cheaper to operate Rafale than EF.
Btw, when did the French rejected the integration of Israeli weapons? Greek air force procured the Israeli SPICE PGM for their Mirage 2000s now and IAF is evaluating the same, next to AASM for the same fighters. Not to forget that we customised the M2Ks during Kargil war with Israeli help and neither the French government, nor Dassault had any objections about it.

a rafale costs 8.5 Bill/63 = 135 Mill. a piece to 11.33 Bill/63 = 180 Mill...

First of all, the UAE Rafale will be more capable than the one offered in MMRCA!
Secondly, the want lower numbers, which increases the costs per unit!
Thirdly, that's the systemprice which is different for any country, because it will include different numbers of spares, weapons...!

All these things makes the UAE costs not really interesting in regard to MMRCA, while numbers (especially flyaway costs) from Brazil, or Swiss, where the same version was offered makes more sense.

 

[Jon Snow]

wasnt there news that the mod was reviewing the price of mmrca?? The new price is 63000 crore(14.3 billion). So mod is actually willing to pay 113 million per plane - doesnt this rule out the eft as its price is quoted as 125 million????

 

[sancho]

wasnt there news that the mod was reviewing the price of mmrca?? The new price is 63000 crore(14.3 billion). So mod is actually willing to pay 113 million per plane - doesnt this rule out the eft as its price is quoted as 125 million????

You mean the Ajay Shukla article about F35 right? But you can't take him seriously, he came up with F35 throughout the whole MMRCA competition and his figures are more than questionable. However, IAF/MoD knew about the costs when they shortlisted the 2 most expensive fighters and here the side advantages that comes with these fighter justyfies the expense.

 

[SpArK]

New Gripen Ad For MMRCA Says A Lot​

This very interesting advert for the Gripen NG appears in the current edition of India's biggest news magazine, India Today. It says a lot of things. One, it appears three months after the Gripen was officially eliminated from the Indian MMRCA competition. Two, and more interestingly, Saab's creative concept has shifted away from simply highlighting the Gripen's virtues (also of "autonomy" and "independence"), and now takes a direct shot at the two finalists in the competition -- the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale -- on cost and stated capability. In short, Saab believes it still has a chance, and this fight isn't finished.

In one part, the advert says, "Performance counts when aircraft are in the air, defending the skies. Unfortunately, too many fighter aircraft are either sitting on the ground because they are too expensive to fly or simply do not have the capabilities that they were touted to have." Ouch.


Also, "[The Gripen IN] has taken the essential philosophy behind the Gripen to the next level, making it a fighter of the latest generation priced at less than half of its peers and operating at a fraction of the cost." The folks at Saab know all too well how delicate the next step in the MMRCA selection will be -- the opening of bids and toss-ups against a benchmark price, understood to be ready and defined.

It gets better. The ad goes on the declare "Today, India has a choice". Hmm, yep -- between the Typhoon and Rafale, right? Well, there's nothing official about it, but it's been rumoured for a while that the four companies that were eliminated three months ago from the Indian MMRCA fighter competition (including Saab), have been "asked" to stick around in the country. The applicability of the aphorism "it ain't over, till it's over" to Indian defence contracting has much to do with what some see as a track that runs parallel to the ongoing selection process. A track that appears to internalize the possibility of complete chaos.

Livefist: New Gripen Ad For MMRCA Says A Lot