Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[angeldemon_007]

For the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Rafale and Eurofighter quote is anybody’s guess, but according to the the industry the machines should cost anywhere between $75 million and $80 million per aircraft in flyaway condition.

If only 5 million $ is the difference between EF and Rafale then it seems like chances of Rafale is getting low.

Asked if Eurofighter is willing to “give away” its unique selling \propositions, including source codes of radars and design, for the “sake of 126 units”, the consortium said it would not be an issue if India becomes a partner of the Eurofighter programme.

Its bad news for Rafale but i don't think we should become part of EF program as it might be too expensive for us. We can always upgrade our aircraft from Israelis in cheaper price. But being apart of this program might help us in our indigenous program.

 

[praveen007]

India's combat aircraft deal likely in 5-6 weeks: Naik - Brahmand.com
.
NEW DELHI (PTI): India’s Air Chief Marshal P V Naik has said the likely winner of the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal would be known in the "next five to six" weeks. "The next step is to call vendors and open up the commercial bids. I think in the next five to six weeks, I expect that the L1 (lowest bidder) would be decided," he said on Tuesday.
As per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), the lowest bidder in the multi vendor tenders is considered to be the winner of the deals.
European consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and
the French Dassault Rafale are the two companies
in race for supplying 126 Medium-Multirole
Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) to the Indian Air Force.
The two companies were shortlisted after a five-
year long competition between six companies
including the American Boeing and Lockheed
Martin, Russian MiG 35 and Swedish Saab Gripen.
The IAF chief said that major procedures such as
the completion of the Technical Offsets Evaluation
Committee report have been finalised.
Commenting on the Mirage 2000 aircraft upgrade
programme, Naik said the deal worth over Rs
10,900 crore would be signed soon under which
51 aircraft would be upgraded.
On the results for procuring heavy-lift and attack
helicopters, the IAF chief said the trials have been
completed by the force and the trial report would
be submitted to the Defence Ministry soon.
On the controversy surrounding the
procurement of the basic trainer aircraft, the IAF
chief said, "I am not aware of any Korean
controversy. They have written a letter that they
should be given a chance. Correct procedure has
been followed and Swiss firm Pilatus has been
declared as lowest bidder.
"There is no controversy as far as I am
concerned. Now the commercial negotiations will
start."
On the highest point in his career, Naik, who is
retiring on July 31, said it came when he visited
the US for the Red Flag exercises as the Vice Chief
of Air Force where the IAF came in for lot of
praise for its efficiency and professionalism.
"The conquering of the Mount Everest by three
women officers was the highest point as Chief of
Air Staff," he said.
Asked why the IAF was not taking part in
multilateral Red Flag exercises held in the US, he
said, "Taking part in such exercises costs money
and that is why we have decided that we will take
part only once in five years in such exercises. So,
the next exercise may take place in 2013."
On queries about the possibility of Indian armed
forces to carry out Abottabad like operations, he
said, "Yes, we do have the capability to carry out
a similar operation."
To a query on the proposed Medium Combat
Aircraft (MCA) being developed by the DRDO, the
IAF chief said, "At present, I have been so busy
with the LCA that I have had no time to think
about MCA."
"Its development has already started on drawing
board. Once developed, it will be a twin engine
aircraft. I think it will be an improvement on the
LCA," he said.

 

[SpArK]

hii, i m new to this thread
i just wanted to ask, in terms of specs(weapons, radars, avionics, speed and etc ) which is the better eft or rafale ???

Rafale.... its 2 times better ... almost half the price... buy 1 get 1 free offer too..

 

[Vibs]

Rafale.... its 2 times better ... almost half the price... buy 1 get 1 free offer too..

Lol...thts the best summary to the MMRCA I've seen till date!!!

 

[kingdurgaking]

can you give me some spec detail with links may be ???

go back into this repository ... you will find lot of details..

 

[Jon Snow]

hii, i m new to this thread
i just wanted to ask, in terms of specs(weapons, radars, avionics, speed and etc ) which is the better eft or rafale ???

depends on a lot of factors - not just specs.
specs too are pretty divided -
weapons - for a2a eft has a lot more variety (aim 120, iris t, asraam,sidewinder and in future meteor) while the rafale currently has only mica for both bvr and wvr and in future it will get the meteor.
but in a2g the rafale has a much better armament ( scalp, apache, exocet(anti ship), paveway etc) while the eft currently can only use lgb's and dumb bombs - the tranche 3b is upposed to get a lot more goodies but the consortium has no money to fund the integration hence they are offering india partnership in the program and hoping india will help finance these projects
for radars- the rafale is going to get the aesa radar in 2012 while the eft gets it in 2015 but the radar of eft is , on paper, at least much better than the rafale's.
avionics - rafale all the way - french avionics are among the best in the world
speed - rafale has top speed at 1.8 mach while eft is 2 mach, both can supercruise.
other features like maneuverability, agility, rate of climb etc are pretty evenly matched.
the ew suite of rafale (spectra) is highly praised while the irst of the eft(PIRATE) is supposedly very good.
engine of the rafale( m88-2) is older and underpowered.

so in the end - both planes are extremely good and the iaf has already stated that they dont have a preference and will be happy with either one.

 

[sancho]

weapons - for a2a eft has a lot more variety (aim 120, iris t, asraam,sidewinder and in future meteor) while the rafale currently has only mica for both bvr and wvr and in future it will get the meteor.
but in a2g the rafale has a much better armament ( scalp, apache, exocet(anti ship), paveway etc) while the eft currently can only use lgb's and dumb bombs - the tranche 3b is upposed to get a lot more goodies but the consortium has no money to fund the integration hence they are offering india partnership in the program and hoping india will help finance these projects

Good summery, but the weapon package of Rafale as a whole is way better than EFs, because of the unique advantages of MICA and AASM. Coupled with SPECTRA and FSO, these weapons offers great advantages that the EF can't!
Btw, as I told you and JN before, it is true that the EF can use different AAMs, but that is not an advantage in case of MMRCA, because both fighters will use METEOR as a prime BVR missile and in case EF will win, ASRAAM is the most likely WVR missile IAF would procure because of commonality with upgraded Jags. Similarly, Rafale in IAF would use METEOR and MICA (with commonality to Mirage 2000-5s), so neither IRIS-T, nor AMRAAM plays a role for IAF.


...other features like maneuverability, agility, rate of climb etc are pretty evenly matched...

...engine of the rafale( m88-2) is older and underpowered.

You have to admit that this doesn't make sense, because if both fighters are pretty equal in terms of maneuverability, agility, or rate of climb, the M88 can't be underpowered. It's a common mistake to "just" compare the engine thrust, while ignoring the weight of the fighter. The M88 needs less power (so far), because the Rafale is way lighter than comparable twin engine fighters!

Emptyweight:

Rafale - 9.5 to 10.5t (depending on version)
EF - 11t+
Mig 29K - 12t+
F 18SH - 14t+

So M88-2 is not underpowered at all, but offers good thrust for Rafales weight and be trials in India, Brazil, S. Korea, Singapore, or Swiss, the ATLC exercise in the UAE, or the war scenarios in Afghanistan and Libya, thrust was never an issue for Rafale, even with heavy loads and hot climate conditions.

Btw, the air chief obviously have to be diplomatic at this stage and in regard to all vendors, that's why he even stated that all 6 fighters were very good and pretty equal, but that doesn't mean IAF would not have preference for one of the them.

 

[sancho]

Something from the Brazilian competition:

Rafale: 'We have an operational capacity ahead of competitors

Appointed as preferred by the Brazilian government until 2010, French fighter is estimated the most expensive


"If you want an idea of ​​the cost, have to put the cost against the benefit. Otherwise, it means nothing. " The statement is the Colonel of Army aviation Frenchman Jean-Marc Merialdo, director of the consortium Rafale in Brazil about the criticism that the game offered by the group is the most expensive in the dispute: the package is estimated at $ 6.2 billion.

"Our package of technology transfer is priceless. It is total, complete, all the technology of the fighter, "said Merialdo.

The French say their proposal offers a " full and complete package of technological and industrial cooperation , including know-how, software, hardware, processes and delivers all the tools and source code needed without any restriction. "

Proposed "transfer of 100% of development resources of the aircraft in Brazil" and ensure that Brazilian industry is "directly involved in the development program," tonando is "the direct supplier."

Learn more about what it says Jean-Marc Merialdo on the proposal of the Rafale...

Google Übersetzer


Rafale is shortlisted in Brazil next to Gripen NG and the F18SH, while the EF was dropped in earlier stages. Compared to the other shortlisted fighters, Rafale is the most expensive one, but is reported to offer the best ToT and industrial package in return. It was prefered by the Brazilian government, but because of budget cuts and the selection of a new president, the final selection was postponed to 2012.

 

[Jon Snow]

Good summery, but the weapon package of Rafale as a whole is way better than EFs, because of the unique advantages of MICA and AASM. Coupled with SPECTRA and FSO, these weapons offers great advantages that the EF can't!
Btw, as I told you and JN before, it is true that the EF can use different AAMs, but that is not an advantage in case of MMRCA, because both fighters will use METEOR as a prime BVR missile and in case EF will win, ASRAAM is the most likely WVR missile IAF would procure because of commonality with upgraded Jags. Similarly, Rafale in IAF would use METEOR and MICA (with commonality to Mirage 2000-5s), so neither IRIS-T, nor AMRAAM plays a role for IAF.


...other features like maneuverability, agility, rate of climb etc are pretty evenly matched...

...engine of the rafale( m88-2) is older and underpowered.

You have to admit that this doesn't make sense, because if both fighters are pretty equal in terms of maneuverability, agility, or rate of climb, the M88 can't be underpowered. It's a common mistake to "just" compare the engine thrust, while ignoring the weight of the fighter. The M88 needs less power (so far), because the Rafale is way lighter than comparable twin engine fighters!

Emptyweight:

Rafale - 9.5 to 10.5t (depending on version)
EF - 11t+
Mig 29K - 12t+
F 18SH - 14t+

So M88-2 is not underpowered at all, but offers good thrust for Rafales weight and be trials in India, Brazil, S. Korea, Singapore, or Swiss, the ATLC exercise in the UAE, or the war scenarios in Afghanistan and Libya, thrust was never an issue for Rafale, even with heavy loads and hot climate conditions.

Btw, the air chief obviously have to be diplomatic at this stage and in regard to all vendors, that's why he even stated that all 6 fighters were very good and pretty equal, but that doesn't mean IAF would not have preference for one of the them.

maybe underpowered is the wrong word - but you cant deny that it could use a bit more thrust - maybe once the kaveri is is developed we will replace the m 88 with it as some reports seem to suggest or it could also be replaced by the m88-4 eco.
maybe he has a personal favorite but the IAF should be happy with either one( kinda like me - happy with either one but personally prefer the eft )

 

[sancho]

but you cant deny that it could use a bit more thrust

Why? Is there any real reason, or is is just based on the paper specs in comparison to EF? Didn't Rafale take off from Leh without any problems and with heavy loads and what does it tell you about the engine thrust?

Don't fall on media, or some forumers speculations about it especially for the wrong reasons, because as I said earlier, it's not about EF specs vs Rafale specs, but which of these fighters fits better into IAF!
When we only look at such specs, the upgraded MKI should be faster than the EF and has longer range AESA radar as well, so should we conclude that the EF would be not good enough in A2A? Of course not and similarly, only because Rafale has not the speed of the EF, it doesn't mean it is underpowered, or much weaker in A2A. Personally I hope for Kaveri - Snecma engine as well, but not necessarily for additional thrust, but for more customisation with Indian techs and more commonality in the fleets, which would be a big advantage for Rafale in IN as well.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale fight to be India's next fighter jet

 

[saurav]

Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise

For years, India’s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) --- the world’s largest overseas fighter buy for which the Typhoon, built by Eurofighter GmbH; and the Rafale, developed by French vendor Dassault, remain in contention --- has been valued at Rs 42,000 crore, almost US $10 billion. Now that valuation is set to rise dramatically as the Ministry of Defence carries out a process called benchmarking.

Benchmarking is the crucial process of estimating the fair price for any purchase, and is completed before the MoD opens the price bids for any tender. This is done by an MoD committee which scrutinises similar tenders worldwide, especially recent sales, to arrive at a comparable --- or as the name suggests, a benchmark --- price. If all the vendors’ bids emerge significantly higher than the benchmark, the tender is cancelled and the process begun afresh.

For example, if the MoD committee that is currently benchmarking the MMRCA concludes that Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50%, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore. When the Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s bids are opened, if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender. On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.

The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and Rafale, which are acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAF’s order. Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russia’s MiG; Sweden’s Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Two of those vendors have told Business Standard that they believe that Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s quotes will be far higher than the benchmark. If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials will have been fruitless.

One eliminated contestant sources the Rafale’s price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. A detailed story in the Sao Paulo based daily, Folha de S. Paulo, pegs the Rafale bid at US $6.2 billion (plus another US $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender). Quoting French sources, the daily reports that the $6.2 billion bid is a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassault’s quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.

Aerospace industry estimations put the cost of the Eurofighter Typhoon about 25% higher than the Rafale. That would put the cost of 126 Typhoons at about $25 billion.

The Indian price bids, however, involve a different calculation. The South Block tender demands price quotes on a “life-cycle” basis, a complex and detailed format that factors in the cost of 126 fighters over their estimated service life of 40 years. Bids are broken down into seven heads --- M-1 to M-7 --- and include the fly-away cost of the fighter; cost of spare parts; operating costs; cost of inspections and maintenance; transfer of technology; and training expenses. The final figure, M-8, is the overall cost, reached by adding up M-1 to M-7.

Executives from Rafale and Eurofighter agree that Rs 42,000 crore is an outdated price and that the survival of the MMRCA contract now depends upon how much higher the MoD is willing to raise the benchmark.

“Rs 42,000 crore was a price estimated a decade ago, and that was for a smaller, single-engine fighter. When you factor inflation, and the fact that India is now buying a heavy, twin-engine fighter, naturally the price will be much higher,” says a senior executive from one of the vendor companies.

A keen watcher of these developments is Lockheed Martin, whose F-16IN Super Viper was rejected by the IAF. A visiting Lockheed Martin executive told Business Standard that the fifth-generation F-35 Lightening II would become a real option for India if the MMRCA procurement was scrapped.

“We did not offer the F-35 for the MMRCA contract because it exceeded the Indian specifications; the fighter was not yet ready for the kind of flight testing specified in the tender; and because the US government had not yet approved it for release to India to include transfer of technology as specified in the RfP,” said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin’s Vice President for Business Development.

Six years down the line, these conditions have changed. Prins now points out that, with Lockheed Martin set to build 20 fighters per month, i.e. 240 per year, “we could be in a position to supply India with its first F-35s by 2016, contingent upon many additional factors including US governmental approval that would affect this timing.”

Asked for the cost of the F-35, Lockheed Martin estimates it “in the mid-60s”, i.e. somewhere between $60-70 million for the conventional version of the fighter. This would be the cost of a full-up, operational configuration with all the high-tech sensors that are integrated internally in a 5th generation, stealthy aircraft.

I am all in support of F-35A if the delivery starts in 2016. No need to buy pricey European Junks,Which no one is happy about. No one likes Rafale except themselves and Eurofighter's future also seems to be not so bright. We can get a gen. ahead plane in almost same price.
With F-35 we will have assured supply of spare parts and upgrades.

126 of these will create havoc in battlefield. A true omnirole fighter made to rule the sky and deliver the payload without getting detected.

 

[saurav]

Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise

For years, India’s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) --- the world’s largest overseas fighter buy for which the Typhoon, built by Eurofighter GmbH; and the Rafale, developed by French vendor Dassault, remain in contention --- has been valued at Rs 42,000 crore, almost US $10 billion. Now that valuation is set to rise dramatically as the Ministry of Defence carries out a process called benchmarking.

Benchmarking is the crucial process of estimating the fair price for any purchase, and is completed before the MoD opens the price bids for any tender. This is done by an MoD committee which scrutinises similar tenders worldwide, especially recent sales, to arrive at a comparable --- or as the name suggests, a benchmark --- price. If all the vendors’ bids emerge significantly higher than the benchmark, the tender is cancelled and the process begun afresh.

For example, if the MoD committee that is currently benchmarking the MMRCA concludes that Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50%, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore. When the Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s bids are opened, if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender. On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.

The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and Rafale, which are acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAF’s order. Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russia’s MiG; Sweden’s Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Two of those vendors have told Business Standard that they believe that Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s quotes will be far higher than the benchmark. If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials will have been fruitless.

One eliminated contestant sources the Rafale’s price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. A detailed story in the Sao Paulo based daily, Folha de S. Paulo, pegs the Rafale bid at US $6.2 billion (plus another US $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender). Quoting French sources, the daily reports that the $6.2 billion bid is a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassault’s quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.

Aerospace industry estimations put the cost of the Eurofighter Typhoon about 25% higher than the Rafale. That would put the cost of 126 Typhoons at about $25 billion.

The Indian price bids, however, involve a different calculation. The South Block tender demands price quotes on a “life-cycle” basis, a complex and detailed format that factors in the cost of 126 fighters over their estimated service life of 40 years. Bids are broken down into seven heads --- M-1 to M-7 --- and include the fly-away cost of the fighter; cost of spare parts; operating costs; cost of inspections and maintenance; transfer of technology; and training expenses. The final figure, M-8, is the overall cost, reached by adding up M-1 to M-7.

Executives from Rafale and Eurofighter agree that Rs 42,000 crore is an outdated price and that the survival of the MMRCA contract now depends upon how much higher the MoD is willing to raise the benchmark.

“Rs 42,000 crore was a price estimated a decade ago, and that was for a smaller, single-engine fighter. When you factor inflation, and the fact that India is now buying a heavy, twin-engine fighter, naturally the price will be much higher,” says a senior executive from one of the vendor companies.

A keen watcher of these developments is Lockheed Martin, whose F-16IN Super Viper was rejected by the IAF. A visiting Lockheed Martin executive told Business Standard that the fifth-generation F-35 Lightening II would become a real option for India if the MMRCA procurement was scrapped.

“We did not offer the F-35 for the MMRCA contract because it exceeded the Indian specifications; the fighter was not yet ready for the kind of flight testing specified in the tender; and because the US government had not yet approved it for release to India to include transfer of technology as specified in the RfP,” said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin’s Vice President for Business Development.

Six years down the line, these conditions have changed. Prins now points out that, with Lockheed Martin set to build 20 fighters per month, i.e. 240 per year, “we could be in a position to supply India with its first F-35s by 2016, contingent upon many additional factors including US governmental approval that would affect this timing.”

Asked for the cost of the F-35, Lockheed Martin estimates it “in the mid-60s”, i.e. somewhere between $60-70 million for the conventional version of the fighter. This would be the cost of a full-up, operational configuration with all the high-tech sensors that are integrated internally in a 5th generation, stealthy aircraft.

I am all in support of F-35A if the delivery starts in 2016. No need to buy pricey European Junks,Which no one is happy about. No one likes Rafale except themselves and Eurofighter's future also seems to be not so bright. We can get a gen. ahead plane in almost same price.
With F-35 we will have assured supply of spare parts and upgrades.

126 of these will create havoc in battlefield. A true omnirole fighter made to rule the sky and deliver the payload without getting detected.

 

[RockyX]

Rafale producing 12 AC every year which can accelerate to 30 per year. Brazil might also Buy Rafale (but less quantity)

They can deliver some 3 squadron in 3 years only. [But as per Deal only 1 squadron will be delivered and rest will be produced in India by HAL]

By 2014, When we will get Rafale/typhoon Jets. By 2014-2015, We will also Get 4 Squadron of Sukhoi MKI [70-75] with Brahmos equipped + 56 Tejas MK1, Upgradation would be completed for 51 MIRAGE MK2, 69 MIG29SMT........and also 45 MIG29 + 12 tejas for 2 Air Craft Carrier.

 

[saurav]

Rafale producing 12 AC every year which can accelerate to 30 per year. Brazil might also Buy Rafale (but less quantity)

They can deliver some 3 squadron in 3 years only

With new govt. in brazil,Chance of Rafale getting the deal is almost nill. Only customer they have is UAE . Even UAE is also finding it very expensive.