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Some nice data on the proposed M2K upgrade plan ( also with the twist of the frenchmen trying to play hardball!)




France tries to tie Rafale with Mirage upgrade


Believing Rafale to be in the MoD's shortlist alongside Eurofighter and F/A-18, the French were reportedly using the Mirage 2000H upgrade as leverage and possibly even an inducement to push their fighter so far only in service with the French military.


Both concurred that each upgrade, costing around Rs 2.9 billion each, which included equipping the fighters with new avionics, advanced navigation systems, mission computers and a pulse doppler radar capable of identifying objects up to a distance of 70 nm, was roughly equivalent to the price of a new fighter but critically without the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

Additionally, the upgraded electronic warfare systems, including radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, electronic jammers and countermeasure systems and enhanced fuel capacity would keep the Mirage-2000Hs operationally relevant for over two decades.

Glass cockpits and helmet-mounted displays would complete the upgrade, in addition to arming them with Rafael Armament Development Authority's medium-range stand-off AGM-142 Raptor/Have Nap/Popeye air-to-surface launched cruise missile, specially configured for the IAF and codenamed "Crystal Maze" with an 80-100 km range. They would also be armed with MBDA's MICA, the anti-air multi-target, all weather, fire-and-forget short and medium-range missile systems.
 
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Facts:

- French fighters made the first strikes, when Libyan air defense was not destroyed and before the cruise missile / B2 strikes began

- No US fighters were involved in these attacks

- No dedicated EW fighters supported that attacks, or recon and air defense missions

Sancho.... wanted to add only one thing ....

EUobserver / Libya strikes showcase French warplane


"The French intervention is, among other things, aimed at putting the Rafale under the spotlight," he said. "For sure, the French air force was confident that Benghazi was free of SAM [surface-to-air-missile] sites, but I think it was mainly a demo."

He added: "Gaddafi's air defences were not so dangerous, so the risk we took was not big."

If Rafale tried to enter Russian Air defence .... then we can say it is a plane that is worth...


But apart from NG(if it had been developed) the only good option available is Rafale... though it doesnt have the best of all technologies but it should suffice the IAF requirement.... only big disadvantage way tooooooooooo costly...
 
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Not really, I just have no time to explain you the same things again and again, especially because it's evident that you refuse the facts just with false assumtions.

Locating a threat = having basic direction and bearing, which is neccesary to deploy countermesures like chaff, flare, or jamming.

GEOlocating a threat = having accurate target data, that can be used to guide weapons.

The early is nothing special and any EWS can do it, the latter needs additional sensor infos (interferometry for example) and like the official sources confirmed, the F16 Block 60 with the Northrop EWS has that capability to GEOlocate, while the Raytheon EWS on F16IN don't have it! You disagree here to the sources you provided yourself to back your earlier points, just to not admit that Rafale has an advantage here! :disagree:

What rubbish ( bold+underlined part in your quote )
Absolutely wrong facts , you are highly mistaken . I explained that same fact 12 months back on this forum , again same crap .

ACES has got geo location capability .
I dont have much time to write again and again same facts . I am posting the screen snap with green marker as my highlighter as substitute .

Image one -----

5571766645_5cd11f0471_b.jpg




Image 2


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Image 3


5571767283_8b47b93a88_b.jpg



First one is from official raytheon website , second one is from flightglobal news about raytheon delivering geolocating RWR , green arrow in last pic from defenceindustrydaily (did ) shows same thing again .

Good luck with your Rafale ---:P
 
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On to main discussion . I am overjoyed hearing Dassault caught up in mess .

Other than hype /hopla created by pathetic & biased defence journos . Will be highly surprised if Rafale and Eurofighter could even make it to shortlist .

My list still the same - Gripen F18 Mig35 F16 Eurofighter Rafale .
 
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Nice video of the Rafale in Switzerland, possibly during the trials in their fighter competition:


 
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If Rafale tried to enter Russian Air defence .... then we can say it is a plane that is worth...


But apart from NG(if it had been developed) the only good option available is Rafale... though it doesnt have the best of all technologies but it should suffice the IAF requirement.... only big disadvantage way tooooooooooo costly...

This is what the US Vice Admiral Bill Gortney said about the air defenses in Libya:

Q: How sophisticated was this air defense system compared to Iraq’s, Iran’s, and you know, even going to back to Vietnam? I mean, you’ve studied these systems, and I think the public would like a sense of that.

VADM GORTNEY: This is an integrated air and missile defense system much like the one that Iraq had and has surrounded Bagdad, built on older Soviet technology, but still good capability.

Regarding techs, the EWS is for sure one of, if not the best available and the weapons aren't bad either. The only problem is cost of course, but that will depend on negotiations and customisations (Kaveri - Snecma engines, Indian weapons), but the biggest point would be a partnership, which would justify the costs and an order in high numbers.
Gripen could be a good fighter, but not for India. We have LCA in the same class and with the least political and industrial advantages, it is not a good choice for our aims.
 
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What rubbish ( bold+underlined part in your quote )
Absolutely wrong facts , you are highly mistaken . I explained that same fact 12 months back on this forum , again same crap .

ACES has got geo location capability .
I dont have much time to write again and again same facts . I am posting the screen snap with green marker as my highlighter as substitute

Instead of just posting snaps, you should read and understand what is written in them!

From image 2:

Raytheon has received the first production contract for ALR-69A(V) all-digital radar warning receivers as it prepares to deliver units for a demonstration of precision emitter geo-location technology.

Which means Raytheon delivers units for this geo location technology demonstration and the RWR is one part of it!


The ALR-69A(V) was selected for the advanced tactical targeting technology (AT3) demonstration because of its wideband digital receiver architecture, says AT3 programme manager Rob Deaton. The goal is to demonstrate that three receiver-equipped aircraft working together can provide precision location and identification of emitters.

Just as the official Raytheon site said as well, location and identification, not geolocation!


In addition to the ALR-69A(V), AT3 requires precision global positioning/inertial navigationand a datalink - the SADL situational-awareness datalink in the case of the ANG F-16s being used for the demonstration.

Which means, for precision geolocating in this demonstration, it requires additional sensor infos besides of those of the RWR and that is exactly what you don't understand. To geolocate means combining the datas of a target, gathered from different sensors in one picture and it's not only these fighters, but AWACS aircrafts that uses the same technologies (RWR, ESM antennas, LWR, IR/UV MAVS) to geolocate threats as well.
Just like the radar arrays are not the only sensor for detection in latest AWACS, it is also not the only sensor in latest fighters. Rafale started to use these sensors not only in defensive, but also in offensive roles, F16 Block 60 seems to follow in that direction (although the weapon guidance is not shown yet), F35 will have it for sure and Gripen E/F might get it, if it will be produced.
Against 5th gen fighters, where radar is of less use, these kind of detecting capabilities will be even more important, which is a reason why we should learn from the French and integrate similar techs into FGFA. Against other stealth fighters, the radar of FGFA will less useful too, while a sophisticated EWS with several additional sensors would be a big advantage!
 
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I think it could be because its battle tested (Kargil) successfully. But there could be more to it, IAF should clarify why they prefer upgrading Mirage rather than buying more MMRCA/LCA/Sukhoi?
I don't believe that Mig-35 would be good idea, its just a prototype as of now, even more since there are none in Russian air force. The future (road map) looks rather bleak for Mig-35.

Kargil succes was the success of indian experts who modify the mirage in two weeks time and fact was that franch were not even informed about it , there was a cry from the franch on it after the war as it was considered as a voilation of contrect..

The Mirage 2000 were supplied with Thomson-CSF Laser Designator Pod, known as ‘ATLIS’ which was capable of delivery of Matra 1000 kg LGBs, which were purpose built for destruction of reinforced targets. These weapons were highly capable but were very expensive. It was decided to augment their capability by adding the 1000 lb bomb coupled with Paveway II laser-guided bomb kit. The IAF had ordered a number of these, but they had been supplied with an incorrect part. Because of the nuclear test performed by India, they were on the embargo list and were unable to get the correct parts sent as replacements. Consequently IAF technicians had to remanufacture this part in order to make the Paveway serviceable for use on the Mirage.
The status as of early June was that aircraft, pilots and technicians were spread around at Western Air Command bases and Gwalior. The Mirage 2000 aircraft itself had always been regarded as an air defence fighter with a limited ground attack capability. Consequently it lacked certain resources such as bombs, hardpoint pylons, tooling, testers and ground crew experience in such matters. A big push was instigated at Gwalior to get the platform prepared. By the 12th June, the IAF Personnel had ironed out most of the faults.
Enough equipment was found to make twelve aircraft at any given time, capable of delivering bombs. However bombs were not readily available to suit, so a search was made of the IAF Inventory. Vintage 250kg bombs from the 1970’s that were made in Spain for the HAL Ajeet aircraft and had been in storage were found and made available. A one off trial was carried out from Jaisalmer over the Porkoran Range on the 1st June and was deemed to be successful. They were immediately rushed into service with the Mirages of 7 Squadron. Initial missions were flown using dumb bombs only. Each aircraft would be configured with 12 bombs, 1 ventral fuel tank and 2 ‘MAGIC-2’ Air to Air Missiles. The mission would depart and meet up with fighter escorts from 1 Squadron, and then fly into the Indian Side of Jammu and Kashmir, with Mig29’s operating as top cover

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/1056-PCamp.html
 
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RBE-2 AESA V/S CAPTOR-E?

Does the RBE-2 AESA have only 1001 T/R Modules due to the small size of the cone of the Rafale?Is this true?Also how would the RBE-2 AESA and Captor-E compare?
 
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The problem is, that the laser version is still under development and testing phase only and was never ordered by the French government. :disagree:

Lets see, you claim SBU-64 laser guided AASM is still 'under development and testing' and never ordered by the French government.

Forward to 2.41 you will see a Rafale carrying laser guided SBU-64 AASM's with a Damocles pod in Libya last week. Don't bother claiming these are not laser guided I can clearly see the laser seeker on the nose of the AASM in the video. This and the fact that the Rafale is carrying nothing but AASM's and a Damocles pod proves you were wrong.



 
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Just feels the MRCA decision is taking too long. Looking at the contenders, they make up 4 of the permanent member seats of the UNSC (a position India itself wants to bid for). This will get more political as time drags on. No matter which option is choosed some countries will be pissed for gaining nothing after all this time, money and effort. It's starting to feel more and more like riding a tiger's back.

I think they will either go for US or Russian option at the end. And since they already have orders for PAK-FA the US option may be even more likely.
 
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Is gripen also joining to show its power in Libya ??

Politically neutral Sweden thirsty for war

Sweden, that is not a member of NATO but a country powerful in respect of its military, is ready to join the bombing of Libya. This means increased cooperation of the Swedish with the alliance. This may negatively impact the geopolitical situation in not so much Libya as Russia.

The Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt was the first one to announce the initiative of the participation of Scandinavians in the military operations against Gaddafi. This politician, who at some point was a prime minister, is known for his favorable attitude towards the cooperation of his neutral country with NATO. As it turned out, the initiative of the head of Swedish diplomacy was backed by Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt.

Before a meeting with NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Reinfeldt has proposed to send eight Swedish fighters Gripen, a military transport ship "Hercules" and a scouting aircraft to Libya. The final decision on sending a Swedish aircraft to Africa must be made by the parliament. Reinfeldt is hopeful that members of the Riksdag approve his plans.

The question of participation of the Swedes in the Libyan operation of NATO may be an example of bonding "brotherhood in arms", which may be followed by Sweden's membership in NATO. This would cause a change at the very borders of Russia - the Baltic Sea and the Arctic.

For nearly 200 years, Sweden has been a neutral country. However, this neutrality lately seems declarative. Swedes (as well as non-aligned Finland) participated in NATO's Partnership for Peace. NATO forces are conducting increasingly more exercises on Swedish territory. Two years ago, Sweden and Finland have agreed with the members of the Alliance Norway, Denmark and Iceland on joint patrolling of maritime boundaries in the Arctic and creating combined Navy and a rapid response unit.

Earlier this year, at the initiative of the UK, a meeting with the British, the Baltic states and representatives of all five Nordic countries was held in London. The meeting was dedicated to the strengthening of military cooperation in the Arctic and Baltic regions. The organization has been already called the "Arctic mini-NATO". Apparently, its future shape will be discussed by the NATO secretary general and former Danish Prime Minister Rasmussen and head of the Swedish government Reinfeldt on Thursday.

There are many indicators that it will not be long before Sweden loses its neutrality and joins NATO. If this happens, the Swedes will be a beneficial acquisition for NATO rather than a burden. The alliance will obtain a new Baltic country near the Russian borders. This, however, is not the only advantage of having Sweden as a member.

This small nine-million country has a strong army and military-industrial complex for its size. Even during the Cold War, the neutral Sweden was the tenth largest exporter of weapons. Over the past 20 years it has moved up to the seventh place, selling weapons worth nearly two billion dollars. Customers of the Swedish defense industry are the Netherlands, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Latin America and even the U.S. and Britain.

Fighters JAS 39 Gripen (the same ones that are ready to fly to Libya), CV90 infantry fighting vehicles and artillery radar ARTHUR have earned particular fame. The Swedish defense industry also produces helicopters, submarines, surface ships and radars for these systems, airborne early warning systems, tanks, self-propelled howitzers, and man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS).

The Swedish army is 25,000 people strong, but the local General Staff has developed a plan that allows it to quickly double. The Scandinavian military machine has 165 combat and 102 support aircrafts, over 50 surface ships and five submarines. It is noteworthy that the decision to build combat power in Sweden was made after the war in South Ossetia.

Sweden's participation in the bombing of Libya is a possible trial step towards membership in NATO, or at least establishing a special relationship with the alliance. How does it change the situation at the Russian borders? What kind of troubles Sweden's membership in NATO can cause Russia? Military experts Leonid Ivashov and Anatoly Tsyganok shared their thoughts with Pravda.Ru.

Leonid Ivashov, president of the Academy of Geopolitical Issues:

"I would not say that Sweden has too strong of an army, capable of solving extra-combat tasks. It thinks more about maintaining its higher status in comparison to Norway and Finland. During last decades Russia has had good cooperative relations with the Swedes. The Swedish General von Sydow was very happy that his country did not participate in the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia. This fact should be noted separately.

"However, the U.S. is carrying out an active policy of encirclement of Russia, creating a ring of military bases around us. There are bases in the Black Sea region, at our northern borders. The Americans started working with Sweden to attract it into NATO. It seems that the political decision has been made and the Swedes will be joining the North Atlantic bloc. Participation in the bombing of Libya and the creation of "Arctic mini-NATO" are steps in this direction.

"Sweden alone is unlikely to threaten Russia. However, as a part of NATO, it is much more dangerous. The Alliance is a well-honed, sophisticated American system designed to encircle Russia. In that sense, the end of the era of Swedish neutrality is not good for Russia."

Anatoly Tsyganok, head of the Center for Military Forecasting, Institute of Political and Military Analysis:

"To date, there is no consensus about the possible entry into NATO in Swedish society. Proponents point to the danger posed by Russia, the adversaries point to the costs of the membership in the alliance. However, the fact that the Swedes have been recently coordinating closely with NATO forces, and that the planes have been sent to Libya, says that the "Atlantic" vector of Swedish politics today is stronger.

"If Sweden joins the Atlantic alliance, it will create many problems for Russia both at the Baltic Sea and the Arctic. In the north, near Russian borders, a joint Swedish-Norwegian strike group will appear, theoretically able to act against our Baltic and Northern fleets. Today, NATO is increasing its presence in the Arctic. In this regard, the addition of Sweden to the alliance is a very bad signal for Russia."

Politically neutral Sweden thirsty for war - English pravda.ru
 
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Lets see, you claim SBU-64 laser guided AASM is still 'under development and testing' and never ordered by the French government.

Forward to 2.41 you will see a Rafale carrying laser guided SBU-64 AASM's with a Damocles pod in Libya last week. Don't bother claiming these are not laser guided I can clearly see the laser seeker on the nose of the AASM in the video. This and the fact that the Rafale is carrying nothing but AASM's and a Damocles pod proves you were wrong.

:azn: Don't have to, the Rafale news blog reported about this before:

For several days, some rafale are spotted with an unusal loadout : Apparently at least one Rafale in each flight is loaded with a damocles pod whereas the planes are only armed with AASM bombs which are GPS guided (see the Rafale C on the left). The best bet is that the LDP is used to feed the AASM with GPS coordinates (especially for opportunity targets). The pod can also be usefull for damage assessment and off course for visual identification of the targets prior to any strike


Here are the latest pics of the Rafale Ms:

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800xsf.jpg



Libya, First picture of a Rafale with full LGB capability

This picture of a Rafale C with 4 GBU-12 and a damocles pod is the first one to demonstrate this capability on the plane during an actual war mission.
The Damocles pod has been in opval on the Rafale in the French air force and Navy for one year and the Navy has reported its first use last January in Afghanistan but only for test purposes.
It's worth noting that the patrol of 2 Rafale shown in these pictures is carrying a powerfull mix of 4 GBU-12 and 6 AASM... a firepower equals to 5 Mirage 2000D.

Rafale News: Libya, First picture of a Rafale with full LGB capability


More:

800xgr.jpg

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Note, the Mirage 2000D carries a targeting pod and 2 x Paveway LGBs as well!


And even more proves:

...This new alternative to laser terminal guidance complements the two versions already qualified for the Rafale: GPS / inertial and GPS / inertial / infrared. The new version is distinguished by a homing laser instead of infrared imager and algorithms dedicated to the terminally ill. Its objective is to engage moving targets maneuvering, land or sea, with great precision.
For the record, the Directorate General of Armament commissioned in late 2009, some 3400 AASM (including a firm order for 680 ammunition). Version INS / GPS / laser will be produced in series from the end of 2012.

Mer et Marine : Toute l'actualité maritime

So what you "think" you would see in the video, is not even produced or integrated into the Rafales of French forces. :D


That's the difference between you and me, you just speculate, while I stick with facts!
 
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Just feels the MRCA decision is taking too long. Looking at the contenders, they make up 4 of the permanent member seats of the UNSC (a position India itself wants to bid for). This will get more political as time drags on. No matter which option is choosed some countries will be pissed for gaining nothing after all this time, money and effort. It's starting to feel more and more like riding a tiger's back.

I think they will either go for US or Russian option at the end. And since they already have orders for PAK-FA the US option may be even more likely.

That politics will be important, is clear since the switch to M - MRCA, because the initial competition was meant as a fast induction, stop gap for the forces, so the requirements of the forces had the biggest importance. Then big companies like Boeing, BAE and EADS understands where this order could go to and pushed their governments and the fact that Dassault couldn't keep the Mirage production line open helped them.

If the main aim is the permanent UN seat, there is no doubt about a win of an US fighter, because they are the key for it, while other countries can only support us in this regard.
I don't agree with your assumption that any vendor will be pissed off, because this is a competition as any other and only one will win. The participating countries won't have a problem either, because India is the biggest arms market in this decade and all of them (except Sweden and Saab possibly) will get other deals anyway.
 
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