Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[gogbot]

Broadsword

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 16th Oct 09
New Delhi


The winner’s jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the world’s most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: India’s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).


The reason: a breakdown in India’s long-running negotiations with French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has flatly refused to reduce its quote of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price --- Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) per aircraft --- unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.


In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crores (US $87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.


Dassault’s India head, Posina V Rao has not returned multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say that Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.


But, the MoD is veering around to the viewpoint that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. That amounts to a 40% rise in the MMRCA’s numbers.


Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.


Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over the last two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crores (US $2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassault’s reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the part of Dassault.


The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.


The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).


Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract --- Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG --- know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation, realises that failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter in the MMRCA contract.


The fighters in contention for the MMRCA contract are sequentially undergoing flight trials and evaluation, which the IAF expects to complete by April 2010. It will take another six months to finalise the trial report and submit that to India’s MoD. The MoD will then announce the winner of the contract.

Well, Dassault Aviation just lost 12 billion dollar deal.

The thing IAF hates most is lack of spares and poor reliability.

Bad move by Dassault Aviation, they could have lost India as a customer forever.

Now the battle comes down to
Eurofighter GmbH(Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, and EADS)
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems

Personally, i think what happened was a good thing
IAF operates too many different types of aircraft.
Now the IAF has an excuse to get rid of the Mirage 2000 with much more modern and capable aircraft.

IAF alredy has different deals with BAE Systems, and EADS, so they can be a good partner for HAL.
Given that Eurofighter GmbH proposed partnership with HAL if Euro fighter was chosen. This involves producing parts for every Euro fighter that will ever be made!

Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, said that India is invited to join the Eurofighter Typhoon programme as a partner. The production of the Eurofighter Typhoon will create thousands of new jobs in India. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, said that in order to win the contract EADS would move avionics jobs from Germany to India. The ongoing campaign is fully supported by the four European nations Germany, United Kingdom, Spain and Italy, their four Air Forces and Europe's leading aerospace companies Alenia/Finmeccanica, BAE Systems and EADS.

?We will shift workload from Germany to India in the area of avionics? - Corporate News - livemint.com

20090213_EADS Aero India

Boeing has also proposed a similar.but in this posters opinion an inferior offer.

The Super Hornet variant being offered to India is named F/A-18IN. It will include Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar. In August 2008, Boeing submitted an industrial participation proposal to India describing partnerships with companies in India

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/news/2008/q3/080804a_nr.html

Both are good offers ,but which is the most reliable vendor ?

 

[sancho]

Well, Dassault Aviation just lost 12 billion dollar deal.

The thing IAF hates most is lack of spares and poor reliability.

Bad move by Dassault Aviation, they could have lost India as a customer forever.

Just wait for a reliable statement of IAF/MoD, because it was reported before by the media that Dassault/Rafale is out and nothing happend.

IAF alredy has different deals with BAE Systems, and EADS, so they can be a good partner for HAL.

BAE a good partner? Wasn't the problems with spares the reason why IAF didn't want additional Hawk trainers and no sets a new tender?

Given that Eurofighter GmbH proposed partnership with HAL if Euro fighter was chosen. This involves producing parts for every Euro fighter that will ever be made!

Boeing has also proposed a similar.but in this posters opinion an inferior offer.

Both are good offers ,but which is the most reliable vendor?

No doubt, such a industrial partnership is a great offer for Indian companies, but the point is what the Indian part will be? Indian parts for EF will only be avionics, that will jointly produced in India. But all major airframe, or engine parts will be produced in Europe. So we might get access to latest developments with them, but our part on EF is only a minor.
For F18SH it could be the other way around, because they won't share their high techs with us, so India producing airframe parts won't be a big risk for them.
Gripen NG has already South Africa as a partner and offered Brazil a huge involvment in the production, so if Brazil chose them, there is not much left for India.
If I'm not wrong Dassault has not statet such kind of involvement, neither for India, nor for Brazil. Possibly because no exports to other countries was cleared so far and the Rafale will be produced only for France yet. India and Brazil would licence produce them for their own, so such a partnership might only make sense if UAE, Switzerland, or Kuwait buys Rafale too.
The Mig 35 can't offer such a partnership at all, because no other country has ordered it and not even Russia will buy it.
I read somewhere that the whole F16 production line could be transfered to India, if we go for F16IN. The question is, will someone buy F16 after 2014?

Anyway, the most important point must be that the fighter and it's techs are ready, so there is no risk of further delays. I think only the US fighters and Rafale can promise that.

 

[Screaming Skull]

There is no real reason for a split, because only the Mig 21 Bisons will be left to replace (Mig 27, Mig 29, Mirage 2K and most likely all Jags will be upgraded). So if 126 is the total requirement, we would reduce the benefits that we could get (ToT, or other related deals) if we split the deal.

Logically, that is absolutely correct. But, the question is will the babus and the ministers in the MoD put logic before personal and political gains?

Any pics of the Mig 35 single seat? What about pics, or news about the teens, the Rafale and their performance so far?

No pics of the Mig 35 single seater. I just spotted one landing in HAL airport from my balcony. It was a fleeting view, just enough to ascertain that it s a Mig.
Pics of the teens and the Rafale during trials in Bangalore is available on the net. Let me see if I can dig out a few. As far as performance goes, the American companies made a lot of noise but nothing official from the IAF. Rafale trials were quiet as will be the case with the Mig too I guess.

 

[Screaming Skull]

The alleged cost of upgrades of the M2K quoted by Dassault seems too steep. If the French don't budge, the deal is most likely to fall apart. It s not that we are out of options. The Israelis will do it for half the price and if we negotiate well, they may further bring down the price. This is definitely gonna have a huge bearing on the MMRCA contest.
The French must seriously consider about pricing of their products. They produce some of the best quality equipment but loose out to competitors due to their poor pricing. If only they could price their products competitively we would have seen more M2Ks and Rafales being sold on the international market.

 

[Gabbar]

IAF's $11-bn order may become larger​

The winner’s jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the world’s most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: India’s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).

The reason is a breakdown in India’s long negotiations with Dassault Aviation, the French aircraft manufacturer, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price — Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft — unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.

In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crore ($87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.

Dassault’s India head, Posina V Rao, did not return multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.

But, the MoD is veering around to the view that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. That amounts to a 40 per cent rise in the MMRCA’s numbers.

Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.

Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crore ($2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassault’s reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the latter’s part.

The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.

The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).

Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract — Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG — know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation itself, realises failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter for the MMRCA contract.

The fighters in contention for the MMRCA contract are sequentially undergoing flight trials and evaluation, which the IAF expects to complete by April 2010. It will take another six months to finalise the trial report and send that to the MoD, which will then announce the winner of the contract.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

The alleged cost of upgrades of the M2K quoted by Dassault seems too steep. If the French don't budge, the deal is most likely to fall apart. It s not that we are out of options. The Israelis will do it for half the price and if we negotiate well, they may further bring down the price. This is definitely gonna have a huge bearing on the MMRCA contest.
The French must seriously consider about pricing of their products. They produce some of the best quality equipment but loose out to competitors due to their poor pricing. If only they could price their products competitively we would have seen more M2Ks and Rafales being sold on the international market.

Even though I am inclined to think Dassault Rafale is out of the tender because of the soured M2K upgrade deal, I don't think the issue is as tied into the competition at this stage, though in the very end it will be a sore thumb that sticks out. France will be overlooked and is being given bad vibes because the technology comes at a very steep price with little benefit to GoI. They aren't even ready to upgrade their most potent strike fighter even when they are dripping in money. Probably the biggest overlying factor of what has to be chosen revolves around what suits the air force AND the government for their strategic long term needs. Countries like France and Sweden at this stage can't do that for India if her dreams of superpowerdom develop at the grass roots level. It would be a bad investment if all you get in return is the rights to copy-produce a few aircraft. Russia can be but there is a big factor here...China flies mostly Russian technology, and for the US's plan to prop up India to work and for India to feel legitimate against China, the PLAAF must feel threatened by the IAF and the only way to do that is fly superior American planes as testament to similar situations in South East Asia where China has basically been kept in check by the likes of Hornets Eagles and Falcons. India is never going to pass this up, whether or not she will get the source codes for APG-79. There is more to MMRCA tender than it seems, it is geo-politics in action. What I think is that India was going to the US in the first place but due to the sheer number of the aircraft and the high level of technology which states guard as secrets, a competition/fairy tale/circus/road show was created to highlight some of the foremost aircraft in the world to the rest of us but cover up the American stoogehood against China. But everyone knows nothing scares the piss out of anyone more than new American military hardware.

 

[sudhir007]

Eurojet proposes thrust-vectoring upgrade for Typhoon IDRW.ORG

Eurofighter and engine supplier Eurojet are stepping up their efforts to interest Typhoon customer nations in a thrust-vectoring upgrade that promises to bring substantial operational benefits and pay for itself through lifecycle cost reductions.

Equipping the twin-engined Typhoon’s EJ200s with thrust vectoring nozzles (TVN) could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5%, while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise by up to 7%, the engine consortium says.

Eurojet partner ITP benchtested a TVN several years ago, and EADS earlier this year equipped its Typhoon cockpit simulator to emulate the performance enhancements offered by the technology.

The industrial partners are now looking for funding to launch a flight-demonstrator programme.

Thrust vectoring could provide a virtual control surface when coupled with the Typhoon’s flight-control system, improving survivability, manoeuvrability and the aircraft’s ability to carry an asymmetric weapons load. It also reduces trim drag and therefore fuel consumption by “unloading” aerodynamic control

 

[gogbot]

Eurojet proposes thrust-vectoring upgrade for Typhoon IDRW.ORG

Eurofighter and engine supplier Eurojet are stepping up their efforts to interest Typhoon customer nations in a thrust-vectoring upgrade that promises to bring substantial operational benefits and pay for itself through lifecycle cost reductions.

Equipping the twin-engined Typhoon’s EJ200s with thrust vectoring nozzles (TVN) could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5%, while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise by up to 7%, the engine consortium says.

Eurojet partner ITP benchtested a TVN several years ago, and EADS earlier this year equipped its Typhoon cockpit simulator to emulate the performance enhancements offered by the technology.

The industrial partners are now looking for funding to launch a flight-demonstrator programme.

Thrust vectoring could provide a virtual control surface when coupled with the Typhoon’s flight-control system, improving survivability, manoeuvrability and the aircraft’s ability to carry an asymmetric weapons load. It also reduces trim drag and therefore fuel consumption by “unloading” aerodynamic control

Must we still maintain this pre-text

Lets just get Euro Fighter and get it over it.

 

[sancho]

France will be overlooked and is being given bad vibes because the technology comes at a very steep price with little benefit to GoI...
...Probably the biggest overlying factor of what has to be chosen revolves around what suits the air force AND the government for their strategic long term needs. Countries like France and Sweden at this stage can't do that for India if her dreams of superpowerdom develop at the grass roots level.

I agree with you in case of Sweden, but you totally underestimating the power of France!
Togehter with Germany it is clearly the major power in the EU, it is a veto power in the UN and is already supporting India for a permanent UN seat. But IMO the biggest advantage of France for India is, that it is an independent country, that is not influenced, or under control of USA, or other nations. This makes them a reliable and sanction prove partner for us, besides Russia.
Also don't forget that France can provide nearly anything to India that Russia, or US can. Space developments, nuclear energy, tanks, subs, fighters, transport aircrafts, ships, even carriers and the list goes on. Not even Israel can compete that, so in stratigic terms, no doubt France and the Rafale are the best choice in MMRCA, besides US and F18SH.

Russia can be but there is a big factor here...China flies mostly Russian technology, and for the US's plan to prop up India to work and for India to feel legitimate against China, the PLAAF must feel threatened by the IAF and the only way to do that is fly superior American planes as testament to similar situations in South East Asia where China has basically been kept in check by the likes of Hornets Eagles and Falcons.

Nobody doubts the capabilities of the American fighters, but it is their control and influence that is not good for India! Just look at South Korea and Japan, that lost nearly all independence in own developments, or procurements and are highly influenced on the american weapon industry. It would be silly of India to counter the dependence on Russia with a new dependence on America right? So if they are ready to give us a deal with less restrictions and arms twisting, they can be a good choice, but if not there are enough options.

Must we still maintain this pre-text

Lets just get Euro Fighter and get it over it.

The engine for LCA yes, EF as MMRCA no!
After the latest reports that Mod is pushing Russia for a faster development of FGFA, with the aim of inducting it in 2017, air superiority fighters like EF and Mig 35 are nearly out of MMRCA. FGFA will have exactly the same capabilities, will be in the same weight class and with stealth, it will be clearly superior, so why should we start licence production of them in 2015, if they will be pretty useless within 2 years?
No mate, this development hints even more for a focus on strikes in MMRCA, what makes Rafale and F18SH clearly the front runners.

 

[sancho]

Rafale with CFTs:

If these are available in MMRCA, it would make 2 more weapon stations free for any type of heavy a2g weapon.

Up to 12 x 200 - 300Kg guided bombs
Up to 5 x 400 - 500 Kg, or even 1000 Kg guided bombs
Up to 5 x Scalp, Exocet, Harpoon, Harm, or Alarm missiles

And additionally to these heavy loads, it still can carry 6 x A2A missiles!

 

[syntax_error]

IS the SPECTRA suite for the rafale's part of the MRCA if yes are we getting TOT for that ????

 

[Haanzo]

^^^ spectra is also included in TOT and the french have agreed to that

 

[syntax_error]

^^^ if thats the case there should be no doubt but to go for the rafale .....
also then the price for upgrading of the Migares might come down considerably....

 

[sudhir007]

 

[sancho]

Rotating E-Scan Radar May Push Eurofighter Exports

ROME - The new "repositionable" electronically scanned radar being proposed for the Eurofighter could make the difference for the fighter in export markets, its designers claim...

..."We believe the repositionable antenna is the way ahead and this will be approved by the Eurofighter partners," said Bob Mason, marketing and sales vice president for radar and advanced targeting at Selex Galileo. "It will be a differentiator in the export market place when competing against French and U.S. competitors which feature only fixed antennae."

Selex Galileo, EADS and Indra form the Euroradar consortium...

..."We would like to get at least a view of a common requirement by year end (from Eurofighter partners). Everyone recognizes the need for AESA radar for export campaigns like India," he said.

"If we get a requirement by year end we can have the radar ready for Tranche 3 Eurofighters but it will be very tight."

Rotating E-Scan Radar May Push Eurofighter Exports - Defense News

The important points of the article are, that the same company that makes the EF radar, also makes the Gripen NG radar and the repositionable radar array sounds pretty much like the same tech. So why should someone buy a very expensive EF if the Gripen NG provides the same techs? Also will the EF consortium veto the joined development of BAE and Saab like French and US did before, as Sweden wanted to use their techs for a radar development?

The article also says, the EF AESA development is still unsure, because the EF consortium members still did not decided about the further development!
The main problems are fundings, because UK wants AESA, but don't has the money now, ITA says they are happy with the Captor M PESA and don't want to fund further developments (ITA is already involved in F35 development and ordered 131 for their air force and navy, which could be a point too). At the end only Germany and Spain are left, but even Germany thinks about reduction of their initial EF order, because of the high cost and the lack of money after the financial crisis.
This sadly shows once again that EF might be a very capable fighter some day, but the question is when? Delays in development and production are more than obvious and that is something that an air force like ours, with shrinking squad numbers don't need.