Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[gogbot]

I feel need to have a US Airplane in our fleet in good numbers and F/A-18 is a pretty good one, plus this is a good move in development of relationships with US.

What is evident that all 6 are good planes but Lockheed Martin and SAAB seem out of it already. Their campaign ain't going anywhere. MiG has very less chances. That's 3 down.

Most people seem to be debating between Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A-18 but I think GOI should go for F/A-18 and from the development of competition it looks like there is a good chance that Boeing might just win it.

BTW we are wasting too much time with the trials. And after this time is gone it looks like Boeing is the best choice to deliver the plane in time. ( Which i think is critical). We need to have this running by 2015.

I agree Mig ,SAAB and F-16 are out.

Most people seem to be debating between Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A-18 but I think GOI should go for F/A-18 and from the development of competition it looks like there is a good chance that Boeing might just win it.

Well Dassault refused to Upgrade the Mirage at the wanted price.

Plus there is no commonality option with the LCA.

Plus no JV offer or partnership was proposed

Three strikes and that's out
So can count out the Rafael, as well

Like i said in my previous posts.

Euro-fighter And Boeing are the Only one in the game

as well both planes can use the same engine as the LCA. So more Comanality

Plus both Companies are offering a lot more than just the Planes and ToT

So the only real competition now is Boeing and Euro-Fighter.

And currently Boeing is winning. with the Latest news

 

[Insane]

I agree Mig ,SAAB and F-16 are out.

well Dassault refused to Upgrade the Mirage at the wanted price.

Plus there is no commonality option with the LCA.

Plus no JV offer or partnership was proposed

Three strikes and that's out
So can count out the Rafael, as well

Like i said in my previous posts.

Euro-fighter And Boeing are the Only one in the game

as well both planes can use the same engine as the LCA. So more Comanality

Plus both Companies are offering a lot more than just the Planes and ToT

So the only real competition now is Boeing and Euro-Fighter.

And currently Boeing is winning. with the Latest news

I know but who knows Rafale might spring some surprises. Its not over for the french yet but they didn't do themselves any favor with the hefty prices for Mirage. Actually had they quoted reasonable prices, there was a very bright chance that they could get it. in fact they were pretty much neck and neck contenders to F/A-18.

My gut feeling is the Boeing is taking it. And if you ask me its just practical to buy that plane. It can cause a lot of damage by its firepower plus bringing US closer does help in other things. Typhoon delivery may be prone to delays which i absolutely loathe.

What F/A-18 does in one way is once we build infrastructure for US Tech we could be well in a position for future purchases. Boeing with its wide range of products could supply lot more than just F/A-18. No matter how you look at it - Technically, Politically, Need of the hour or future scope it should be Boeing all the way.

 

[rajeev]

I know but who knows Rafale might spring some surprises. Its not over for the french yet but they didn't do themselves any favor with the hefty prices for Mirage. Actually had they quoted reasonable prices, there was a very bright chance that they could get it. in fact they were pretty much neck and neck contenders to F/A-18.

My gut feeling is the Boeing is taking it. And if you ask me its just practical to buy that plane. It can cause a lot of damage by its firepower plus bringing US closer does help in other things. Typhoon delivery may be prone to delays which i absolutely loathe.

What F/A-18 does in one way is once we build infrastructure for US Tech we could be well in a position for future purchases. Boeing with its wide range of products could supply lot more than just F/A-18. No matter how you look at it - Technically, Politically, Need of the hour or future scope it should be Boeing all the way.

From what I have learnt is that Typhoon is best plane in our offer. It will also give us another avenue to get the 5th gen plane in case PAKFA does not work out!

But it appears more and more that F/A-18E/F SuperHornet will be most likely selected. I think we might select that plane to be in good graces with US. Here is something from Jane that was published.

Boeing India reiterated a commitment on 29 October to transfer leading-edge technology to India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in order to facilitate the in-country development.

Rafale will be best if we plan on indigenous development of 4.5 gen plane. I dont how much we can expect in terms of future development of 5th gen. Also their outrageous quote for 40 million $ upgrade package would mean we will be stuck with these kinds of prices for future upgrades of Rafale.

 

[holysaturn]

The USAF never had the SH. It was always the USN.

usaf is considering SH
"The House version of the fiscal 2010 defense authorization bill includes language that advises the USAF to consider adopting Super Hornets in order to avoid a gap in the nation's air defenses while the JSF ramps up"
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To solve Air Force’s ‘fighter gap,’ buy Navy Super Hornets - Air Force Community - Air Force Times

 

[Insane]

From what I have learnt is that Typhoon is best plane in our offer. It will also give us another avenue to get the 5th gen plane in case PAKFA does not work out!

But it appears more and more that F/A-18E/F SuperHornet will be most likely selected. I think we might select that plane to be in good graces with US. Here is something from Jane that was published.


Rafale will be best if we plan on indigenous development of 4.5 gen plane. I dont how much we can expect in terms of future development of 5th gen. Also their outrageous quote for 40 million $ upgrade package would mean we will be stuck with these kinds of prices for future upgrades of Rafale.

That is right. I do not really want the Rafale at this point of time. And I am sure if french win the order we will be in for a long ride. First with delayed delivery and then expensive upgrade.

Typhoon might be the best available plane of the lot but its not a matured product yet and that beats the whole purpose of MRCA to induct planes quickly to fill up urgent requirements.

No need to go Banana over 5th generation plane right now. we can not leave everything to the future. F/A-18 could very well serve India for 20 years as a top class fighter and that is what we want.

If needed we could buy 5th generation plane after 5-10 years time. Typhoon may have matured by that time and who knows F-35 may be up for grab. There is always a chance of working in a more structured way on MCA which is likely to be a 5th generation plane. I think by 2015 the Indian domestic industry will be lot more matured and in better shape to handle future projects.

I am not even concerned about FGFA right now. I am sure it will work. It is not gonna be ready before 2020 though. If it does not work we would know by 2015-2017, and that will be the right time to go for MCA, And think about another purchase.

 

[Gideon]

usaf is considering SH
"The House version of the fiscal 2010 defense authorization bill includes language that advises the USAF to consider adopting Super Hornets in order to avoid a gap in the nation's air defenses while the JSF ramps up"
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First the wikipedia article misquotes the source it takes the quote from: Air Force urged to consider Navy F-18s (8/6/09) -- GovExec.com
The need is felt in the Air National Guard who's planes are owned by the USAF. The article also states that the USAF is unlikely to buy the F-18 as its funding is focused on the F-35.
"But the defense official expects the Air Force to reject any efforts to buy Super Hornets -- or any other older fighters. "The Air Force won't do it willingly, more than likely, because it doesn't meet their strategy," he said."

To solve Air Force’s ‘fighter gap,’ buy Navy Super Hornets - Air Force Community - Air Force Times

This is an opinion piece, not a news article.

 

[duhastmish]

Boeing assurance on ToT for production of F-18IN in India news
29 October 2009

New Delhi: After successfully completing the second phase of trials for Indian Air Force's 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender , US firm Boeing Co said it was ready to transfer technology which would allow construction of its F/A-18IN Super Hornet fighter jets in India.

We fully intend for Super Hornet to be built in India,' said Boeing Military Aircraft Integrated Defence Systems president Christopher M Chadwick here.

While the Indians generally maintain a free-flowing relationship with the Russians as far as transfer of technology is concerned, US firms are more tight-fisted and, given the lack of political goodwill amongst both nations, also more unreliable.

'We plan to build 18 aircraft in the US and from the 19th aircraft it will be built in India…. we will continue transfer of technology to India so that they not only assemble but make lots of part of the aircraft in India…. actually building the aircraft here,' Chadwick added.

Boeing and the Indians are aware that for transfer of American technology, prior approval of the US Congress required. It is fairly certain that award of the MMRCA contract to a US firm, either Boeing or Lockheed Martin, would eventually hinge around the level of technology transfers that the Americans are willing to allow with their aircraft.

Lockheed Martin, the world's biggest defence contractor, is in the running with the Block 60 version of the F-16, dubbed the F-16IN Super Viper. This is the most advanced version of the aircraft currently available and serves with the UAE air force.

Meanwhile, Boeing's offering for the Indian Air Force, the F/A-18IN, has completed the first two phases of trials. While the first phase was completed in the United States, the second phase was conducted at various locations around India - Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.

The third phase of trials, which will be the weapons phase, will be held in February 2010 in the US.

The other aircraft competing for the $11 billion MMRCA tender are the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, Dassault's Rafale, Saab's Gripen, Russia's MiG-35 and the European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon.

As per terms of the tender, the IAF will acquire 18 aircraft in fly-away condition, with the rest being manufactured by HAL under a technology transfer deal. There is a possibility of the size of the order being enhanced. The aircraft are meant to replace primarily the IAF's ageing fleet of MiG-21 Fishbed fighters.

domain-b.com : Boeing assurance on ToT for production of F-18IN in India

 

[sudhir007]

Eurofighter Typhoon - Built-in Growth Potential

The EJ200 has been designed with inherent growth potential up to 15%. Enhancements in the compression system and latest innovations in core engine technology could deliver up to 30% increased power. This performance improvement may also be traded for life cycle cost improvements, maintaining current thrust levels. This flexibility is enabled by the advanced digital electronic control system (DECMU), fully exploiting the advantages of the enhanced engine in line with operational requirements.

The EJ200 engine powering the Eurofighter Typhoon features from Tranche II a further step in engine control and monitoring technology, integrating all elements necessary for Digital Electronic engine Control and Monitoring into a single unit (known as DECMU) as well as incorporating potential for future enhancements. The EJ200 DECMU combines the functionality of the engine mounted Digital Electronic Control Unit (DECU) and the aircraft mounted Engine Monitoring Unit (EMU).

 

[sancho]

Hi Gideon, at the beginning I though so too, but now there are not many advantages left for the Super Hornet.

Even if you forget about all the rest of the bells and whistles. You still get an amazing deal with Boeing. By transferring production to India, you would have no problems with spares and stuff.

Many people still have in mind that it was US that posed sanctions on India and the reliable countries that provided us with spares were Russia and France, so that is not really a big point for F18

Also, you are forgetting that with aquisition of the SH the Indian Air Force gets access to a whole gamut of new weapons and systems like JDAMs, bunker bursters, ERAMs, etc etc. Just an order of hundreds of JDAM's should be able to convert all those free fall Russian bombs into Laser designated weapons

No I have it in mind and without a doubt it is the biggest advantage for US fighters, but US weapons are on offer with European fighters too and the French AASM is a comparable bomb-kit like the JDAM, so there are other options too!

Plus, if you consider the F-18 G electronic warfare variant as a future purchase as well, you could defeat many air defense radars and boost your capabilities immensely without having another additional airframe to bother about!

That's right, if it is on offer with full capabilities, but even Australia gets a Growler lite version with the ECM pods on the wingtips and some jamming capability, but that is nothing special. The EF also has ECM pods on the wingtips, Rafale has an integrated system and like you can see here ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/37431-su-30-mki-growler.html ), even for our Flankers there are ECM pods for wingstations and a jamming pod available now.
Again there are other options for IAF too!

Finally, with the entry of Boeing into the Indian military's supplier list, down the road when the JSF becomes much more cheaper and more readily available India could possibly consider its advanced Block-2 or 3 acquisition when you retire the Mirages, the Migs without the need to establish another whole new support base.

All latest reports hints that JSF is delayed and will come nearly at the same time when FGFA will arrive in India (for India it will be available late anyway), that's why I don't expect JSF in IAF. Only for IN it could be a good point, because the F35B could start from our carriers too. Anyway that don't mean we have to take F18 for IAF, because only the weapons are the same, the rest is different. With Mig 35, or Rafale instead we could have the same aircraft for IAF and IN and same weapons.

To sum it up, if IAF don't need a Growler, gets AASM, less maintenance costs, full ToT & source cods, a co-developed Kaveri/Snecma engine and also an ready developed fighter with the Rafale, only the US weapon package and possibly the same engine for LCA are left as advantages for F18.
18SH would be a political decision and not the best fighter for IAF, or the most advantages for our industry and imo the best package with most benefits for all (Gov, IAF and Industry) must win.

 

[sancho]

Well Dassault refused to Upgrade the Mirage at the wanted price.

Plus there is no commonality option with the LCA.

Plus no JV offer or partnership was proposed

Three strikes and that's out
So can count out the Rafael, as well

Not correct, a co-development for a Kaveri/Snecma engine that could be used on Rafale and for LCA was offered. IAF wanted a ready engine for LCA now, but that doesn't mean they would deny the offer for Rafale too. Getting Kaveri fixed, with 90kN or more and for at least 126 fighters in the fleet is way more worth than producing avionic parts for EF! These engines could be used for later, or export LCAs and would reduce the cost of Rafale too.
Also it is very likely that LCA MK2 could get the same IRST and AESA radar of MMRCA winner and these techs are ready in Rafale now, EF and Gripen NG gets their radar only in 2013, or later.
One more point, we are already co-developing/producing the topsight HMS with France, so even more commonality for LCA and Rafale.

 

[marcos98]

TRISHUL: Where Is The MiG-35?
Where Is The MiG-35?
No one from Russia, it seems, can give a convincing answer to this very simple question. Earlier last February during the Aero India 2009 exhibition, Mikhail Pogosyan, who presently wears two hats—Director-General of RAC-MiG and Director-General of Sukhoi Corp—had made two interesting revelations: one, that the MiG-35’s single-seat and tandem-seat variants will be rolled from the Nizhny Novgorod-based Sokol Aircraft Plant by August this year; and two, there would be maximum mission systems commonality, inclusive of the AESA radar, between the MiG-35 and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that will be co-developed by India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Russia’s United Aircraft Corp (UAC). Both these revelations have since been contradicted with the passage of time. The Indian Air Force (IAF) had expected the roll-out of the single-seat and tandem-seat versions of the MiG-35 latest by mid-October and be made available for a week-long phase of flight evaluations within India later this year, followed by a second round of evaluations (involving test-firings of precision-guided munitions) in Russia within the first quarter of next year. And as for systems commonality, especially pertaining to the AESA radar, it became evident last August that it will be the Zhuk-AE from Phazotron JSC that will go on board the MiG-35, while the FGFA will be equipped with a variant of the MIRES Sh-121 AESA-based multi-mode radar, which is now being developed by Tikhomirov NIIP. The Zhuk-AE AESA which has repeatedly been shown on board the MiG-29M2 No154 M-MRCA (built in 1990) since 2007 is now officially described as being a functional technology demonstrator containing 600 transmit/receive modules, while the definitive series-production variant of the Zhuk-AE will have 1,000 T/R modules. And the MiG-29M2 No154, which has deceptively being painted as the MiG-35 and been used in the past for giving joyrides to some India-based broadcast media journalists and a few IAF pilots, is now being described by RAC-MiG as just a ‘proof-of-concept’ demonstrator!

It has now emerged that RAC-MiG had built two prototypes of the shipborne MiG-29 as part of the contract to supply 12 MiG-29Ks and four MiG-29KUBs to the Indian Navy. These two prototypes—a tandem-seat MiG-29KUB No947 and a single-seat MiG-29K No941—made their maiden flights in January and June 2007, respectively. (By the way, these two prototypes were the first brand-new MiG-29s to be built by RAC-MiG after a gap of 15 years!) Following the conclusion of the flight certification and weapons qualification phases, the single-seat MiG-29K No941 was and is still being subjected to a modification programme aimed at deriving the definitive single-seat MiG-35. This perhaps explains why RAC-MiG has publicly displayed (during MAKS 2007 and MAKS 2009) the MiG-29KUB No947, but has never even revealed the existence of the Indian Navy-specific MiG-29K No941 to date. It is now believed that the Russian Air Force, as part of a Kremlin-initiated bailout package for debt-ridden RAC-MiG, will place an order for 24 MiG-35s by 2012, while the Russian Navy will procure 24 MiG-29K/KUBs in 2012 to replace the existing Su-33 shipborne combat aircraft.

According to RAC-MiG, the definitive MiG-35 will have larger wings to accommodate 10 underwing weapon stations, plus a belly-mounted station to house the Novator-built 3M-14AE Kalibr-A subsonic 290km-range air-to-ground land attack cruise missile. To make the MiG-35 a truly network-centric platform RAC-MiG has already initiated industrial participation negotiations with Israel’s SIBAT, plus avionics OEMs from Italy (Finmeccanica/Elettronica) and France (SAGEM for the Sigma-95 RLG-INS, which is also on board the Su-30MKI)

 

[dbc]

To sum it up, if IAF don't need a Growler, gets AASM, less maintenance costs, full ToT & source cods, a co-developed Kaveri/Snecma engine and also an ready developed fighter with the Rafale, only the US weapon package and possibly the same engine for LCA are left as advantages for F18.
18SH would be a political decision and not the best fighter for IAF, or the most advantages for our industry and imo the best package with most benefits for all (Gov, IAF and Industry) must win.

IMHO, silly to pass on the SH did you miss the part where the engine on the super bug can be replaced in less than 30 minutes? The SH was designed for maximum availability no other platform comes close. I'll say this once none of the other MRCA contenders come close to matching the SH's versatility, reliability and availability. Sure it is not the most maneuverable aircraft but you already have the MKI for dazzling your enemies with air ballet . If you want an aircraft that looks pretty on the tarmac or in the hangar by all means go for the Migs, Eurofighter OR Rafael. Political decision my a$s, I am pretty sure the IAF is drooling at the prospect of getting their hands on the SH.

 

[sancho]

IMHO, silly to pass on the SH did you miss the part where the engine on the super bug can be replaced in less than 30 minutes? The SH was designed for maximum availability no other platform comes close. I'll say this once none of the other MRCA contenders come close to matching the SH's versatility, reliability and availability. Sure it is not the most maneuverable aircraft but you already have the MKI for dazzling your enemies with air ballet . If you want an aircraft that looks pretty on the tarmac or in the hangar by all means go for the Migs, Eurofighter OR Rafael. Political decision my a$s, I am pretty sure the IAF is drooling at the prospect of getting their hands on the SH.

But it's still the biggest and heaviest fighter in the competition and compared to lighter, or even to those single engine fighters the maintenance costs are higher. Not to mention the logistic costs for complete new types of weapons and spares. The Rafale instead gives the advantage to use any weapon that are already in IAF and in use of over 100 Jaguars and 50 Mirage 2000.
Not only the Russians, any fighter in the competition is more maneuverable than the F18 and most of them offer the same a2a weapons.
As I said, there is not much left that the F18 can offer IAF what the Flankers doesn't have, or the Eurocarnards couldn't do better. Imo only the good weapon pack (if all weapons are available for India) and a2g capabilities. Doubtful that the IAF will be so keen on it, with those other possibilities.

 

[RPK]

Saab working out big plans for India

Saab working out big plans for India IDRW.ORG

Saab is a global provider of defence and civil security solutions, services and products. In the defence market, the company focuses on air, naval, land and joint operations while in the civil market, it specialises in civil security and commercial aeronautics.

The Swedish company has major operations in several countries in Europe, as well as in , Australia and the US with 13,300 employees and annual sales of SEK 23 billion in 2008.
In India, Saab is one of the six companies vying for supplying 126 multi-billion-dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force. It has offered the next-generation Gripen, which includes increased combat range and endurance, a more powerful engine and super capability, additional weapons carriage capability and increased payload, for the much-awaited contract.

Jan Widerstrom, vice-president, Saab International India AB, says, “The MMRCA is the biggest project for us in that is not just about selling fighter jets-we’re also going to build up the know-how in India to build the next generation of defence technology… It’s a different game plan; the deal has the potential to change the Indo-Swedish business model altogether. But even if the deal does not work out, we are here to stay in India. We’re looking at a long and sustainable relationship with India, and have set up an office in Delhi with this in mind. We also have employees working in Bangalore. Apart from MMRCA, maritime patrol could be a big business opportunity for us in a growing market like India. On the civilian side, we’re looking at providing civil security during the Commonwealth Games. We’re providing support to NAL and HAL for civilian programmes and also outsourcing production of parts it India.”

Saab International senior vice-president Thorbjorn Gustafsson says, “It’s a tough game. We’ve moved a bit late. But still it’s a good timing. India, after recession, has taken the lead and is considered as the superpower for the future. India is special with its huge setup of local industry. And with its English-speaking, highly-educated population, India today is the most important market from us apart from Australia.”

Asked about their interaction with Indian industry, Mr Gustafsson said, “We’re focusing on building relationships with Indian industry, which is very important to start with. The public sector companies in India are very strong on domain knowledge, but are restricted due to government intervention. The private firms, on the other hand, are very aggressive and are hungry for a share of the global pie.”

On the challenges in the Indian market, Mr Widerstrom says, “The business culture is very different. Things take time, but that happens in other countries too, especially in defence deals, where the stakes are very high…We’re also hoping for 49-51% FDI in our sector. But with the liberalisation of business and economy, and a 6%-plus growth rate, India is the place to be.”

 

[sudhir007]

Saab's Gripen Demo makes first flight with AESA radar

PICTURE: Saab's Gripen Demo makes first flight with AESA radar

Saab's Gripen Demo aircraft has made its first test flight since receiving a key technology on offer to potential export customers including Brazil, India and Switzerland.

Now equipped with the antenna and other elements of Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems' Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the two-seat demonstrator resumed its flight activities on 27 October, when it performed a sortie from Saab's Linköping site in Sweden.

The heavily modified B-model aircraft had been on the ground in refit for the last several months, during which time Saab integrated its AESA array, new satellite communications equipment and additional internal fuel capacity. It has also gained new electro-optical radar warning receivers and missile approach warning sensors developed by Saab Avitronics.
The Demo airframe has now completed more than 80 flights since May 2008, and is being used to de-risk technologies intended for use with Saab's future NG (new generation) production standard of the Gripen.
The type has already been shortlisted in competitions in Brazil, India and Switzerland, and will equip the Swedish air force from 2014.
Selex says flight tests of its new AESA design, which uses a unique "swashplate" mounting to significantly boost the sensor's area of coverage, will also support the technology's possible future integration with the Eurofighter Typhoon.
The UK Ministry of Defence earlier this year confirmed a desire to equip its Tranche 3 Typhoons with AESA radars, and industry sources say a flight-test programme with the Selex design is expected to take place from 2012. EADS has previously flown an AESA array on a Eurofighter development aircraft in Germany.

unother link :-
http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2009/gripen_ng_demo_returns_to_the_skies.htm

Gripen NG Demonstrator started flight testing again on October 27 following a modification which includes the installation of an AESA radar

The Gripen NG Demonstrator has been modified with a number of tactical systems: AESA radar, a new satellite communication system, an electro-optical missile warning system as well as activation of the increased internal fuel.

"A lot of new features have been implemented since we flew for the first time last year, but it takes an expert to see any external changes to the aircraft. Most clearly visible are the sensors for the missile warning system and antenna for the satellite communication system," says Mattias Bergström, project manager for the Gripen NG Demonstrator.

New tactical system
AESA radar, Active Electronically Scanned Array, is among the enhanced Gripen's capabilities. In simple terms, it refers to a radar that is built up of many small antenna elements into a large antenna. Each individual element can be controlled, facilitating many functions. Previously, the Gripen radar was a mechanically controlled antenna that illuminates one area at a time. An AESA radar can quickly scan larger areas, monitor more targets simultaneously and allow the pilot to operate with more flexibility.

"The new satellite communication system that we have introduced means you can communicate voice and text via satellite technology," explains Mattias Bergström.

Electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System
The sensors of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAW) can be seen on the aircraft at the wing root and by the air brake. The system will protect among other things against Man Portable Air Defence Systems (MANPADS).

The flights will now continue and the flight envelope will be opened once again, while all the new tactical systems will be tested.