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I am sorry to reveal that
you embarrasingly citated a wrong example to prove your wrong POV

LOL nice try to distract from the actual matter. :lol:

Especially when your own sources show exactly what I said about using the radar data of the Flankers (but it's true that it were just K's, although it doesn't matter for the actual matter) for surveillance, to guide the other passive fighters and not include them in the attack formations:

USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said:...
...“They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out.”

That's what the AWACS or mini AWACS role is about, diverting radar or signal data to others, while operating seperated from them, to not make them vulnerable to detection and to remain safe yourself.

So diverting that to the future IAF fleet, one could use LCA for escorting Rafale strike packages (both passive), while radar data of AWACS or active fighters, that operates outside of the enemy airspace, will be diverted by datalinks.

So whther stealthy or not IR emission from air friction from wings & fuselarge of a plane cant be ignored which the enemy fighter's IRST would detect it & no EW would work against IRST

Just that you have only a narrow field of view to detect IR signatures and that even to very low ranges. So compared to active radar detection, or signal detection via RWR, the IRST is the least useful sensor to provide early warning. So unless you have 100s of fighters, pointing their nose towards our airspace at any giving time, the chance to detect a strike package just by IRST is more than low.

Hmm
if your reffering to LIBYA example

No, I am refering on how Rafale or other fighters are used in SEAD operations. You always have 1 fighter that tries to provoke and detect the air defences and other, that will take them out. In Libya the only difference was, that the defence systems had low range and could be attacked with AASM from high altitude too, but if they are more capable, you need to bring the weapon closer to the target and the way to do that, is to avoid detection:

http://www11.pic-upload.de/12.09.14/g59er3ybged5.jpg


Becoz with awacs no matter how low you fly & whther your are in active or passive mode if your not stealthy & you are flying within the detection range of AWACS , then you cant hide

Which is not true, we know that low flying Russian fighters were able to avoid AWACS detection of US carrier groups. Greek Mirage 2000s and F16s were able to avoid E-2 detection during an exercise with the French carrier, not to mention that having AWACS alone doesn't help, if you can't put it in action in useful numbers to cover the whole area and in a useful rotation as it is the case for us now. We are able to support our fighters and ground troops with AWACS in war times today, but we are not able to provide a full coverage of the border areas at 24/7 anytime soon and only if that is possible, with additional overlapping features like aerostats and ground radars, you will get a high possibility to counter low level attack approaches.

& that is for IAF's 2 front strategy basically which includes a vastly outnumbered adversary CHINA plus well trained PAF.I am stressing about PAK border line only.

The 2 front war is not a strategy, but the worst case that IAF is trying to prepare for. Therefor they need to be able to have full AWACS coverage of both boder sides at any given time, not only at 1, which is why they estimate that they need around 15 x AWACS to do that in a propper rotation.

why do you beleive it doesnt serve security of the nation ???

Because of the low numbers! We need more aircrafts in the air to cover all areas and at the same time enough aircrafts on the ground to have a propper rotation, that's why I want more EMB DRDO AWACS as soon as possible and not waste time with a new AWACS development.

& why am i doubting becoz i dont know any recent updates about novator i have been listening about this from quite a sometime but no latest updates or news have been published about it
so thats why i am skeptical.

Exactly, just as I am skeptical about it, so why bother to argue with it, if we don't know if it's developed let alone inducted into IAF? It's a mystery and claiming we can easily take out enemy AWACS with that then doesn't make sense.

we wont be having in offensive scenario in their land

Wrong, that's even what Rafale or the coming upgrades of MKIs with long range attack capabilities are about, hittin China deep in their hinterland, be it from distance or by penetrating and the importance of that should be very obvious too, because the only way to counter their numerical superiority in the air, is to attack their airbases on the ground. The more you take out or at least damage to keep them out of operations for a certain time, the less opponents you have in the air and that includes their AWACS aircrafts.
That's even the common tactic in all wars, even against far less capable countries (Libya, Iraq, Kosovo war up to the WW's), reducing the combat capability of the enemy air force by destroying as many air bases belongs to the first attacks in a war.
 
French pilots are former air chiefs are always praising Rafale as the best in the world.
While our retd air chiefs miss no chance to take pot shots at Tejas.
What a shame!!

We are hitting the project, since the development and the management is a mess. The fighter itself is needed and wanted but with all the problems and delays, frustration should be obvious. But even if it would be available today, I doubt that the officials would claim Tejas to be the best fighter in the world.
 
We are hitting the project, since the development and the management is a mess. The fighter itself is needed and wanted but with all the problems and delays, frustration should be obvious. But even if it would be available today, I doubt that the officials would claim Tejas to be the best fighter in the world.

I was just showing the difference in the approach of the two sets of professionals when it comes their homegrown aircraft.
Is Rafale really the best in the world ?

Kya objectivity ka theka sirf IAF ke pas hai ?

What stops French pilots from bitching to the media about the how underpowered the engine is or the low number of modules on Rafale's radar among other things ?
 
Rafale is in trouble

EFT counter offer is tempting
 
Irrespective of some speculative media reports, Rafale is very much on the track as also confirmed by our IAF chief just few days back.


the EFT offer has been discussed with PM directly By germans

it is very much true
very juicy offer
very actively being considered
 
Rafale should just die. Serious. After 15 years, no foreign buyer. What a failure.
 
The French flights over Iraq began
6c86d8fdc90f3a54f15dbcb790a10b87.jpg




On Monday morning, the first French military flights began over Iraq at the start of the United Arab Emirates (AFP photograph of a Rafale based Al Dhafra) . Recognition, precise does one initially.

While the Paris conference on Iraq began, two Rafale took off from the base Emirati Al Dhafra. It is conveniently located about two hours flight from the war zone against the Islamic state .





" As of this morning, the first reconnaissance flights will take place with the agreement of the Iraqi authorities and Emirati authorities , "said the defense minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, on site. " Be ready to respond , "said he added to 200 750 military base in the United Arab Emirates.

Six Rafale are usually based at Al Dhafra BA104. They are 3/33 Lorraine Squadron. We must add a Boeing C-135 refueling aircraft and Atlantique 2 of the Navy who did not wait to make his intelligence work and recognition. Primordial.

No boots on the ground except trainers, air commandos

If the official doctrine is " no boots on the ground ", it is obviously nothing. In addition to the agents of the DGSE, it takes with trainers, probably soldiers land special forces, to accompany the Kurdish peshmerga in the learning of French material.

Who says next bombing, also said air or targeting support. As in the Harmattan operation in Libya in 2011, commandos and CPA10 CPA20 (paratroopers from the air), specialized in supporting engagement in depth fighter jets are on site.

The ability to land quietly in Kurdish territory in Erbil facilitates this necessary deployment. These TACP (training Tactical Air Control Party ) are generally small autonomous teams of a dozen military including an operator target designation, a forward air controller, transmitter ... This is the invisible part of a bombing operation.

Since late August, recall that a Group operational transport (GTO) has also been set up at Al-Dhafra for airdrops of humanitarian supplies (and weapons). This GTO is formed of two Transall C-160 NG of BA105 Evreux (Anjou and 1/64 2/64 squads Béarn). He works with a detachment of widths from 1 (RTP transportation battalion paratrooper) Francazal near Toulouse.
Les vols français au-dessus de l'Irak ont commencé : Défense globale
 
LOL nice try to distract from the actual matter. :lol:

Especially when your own sources show exactly what I said about using the radar data of the Flankers (but it's true that it were just K's, although it doesn't matter for the actual matter) for surveillance, to guide the other passive fighters and not include them in the attack formations:



That's what the AWACS or mini AWACS role is about, diverting radar or signal data to others, while operating seperated from them, to not make them vulnerable to detection and to remain safe yourself.
What !!
"distract from actual matter " Roflmao :rofl:
ok my lord whatever pleases you !!

but sadly again i want to state nowhere did i find mini awacs cant be used for offensive ( enemy's air space) .
meanwhile as all the exercise had held in india & it makes a jack sense that mini awacs concept cant be used in foreign land

which was our main point of discussion





So diverting that to the future IAF fleet, one could use LCA for escorting Rafale strike packages (both passive), while radar data of AWACS or active fighters, that operates outside of the enemy airspace, will be diverted by datalinks.

Day by day sancho your post standards is going into gutters:bad:
your saying we would be using LCA for escorting rafale in foreign land eg CHINESE airspace meanwhile ignoring much capable SU 30mki for that mission. IF your mean LCA mark 1 i am afraid it's limited flying hour & range plus limited number of BVRAAM capabilty if carries 2EFT s really makes it really unsuitable for long range missions if you try to divert this blunderous post by replying i meant for LCA mark2 then i dont think it is going to be inducted anyway before 2020.






Just that you have only a narrow field of view to detect IR signatures and that even to very low ranges. So compared to active radar detection, or signal detection via RWR, the IRST is the least useful sensor to provide early warning. So unless you have 100s of fighters, pointing their nose towards our airspace at any giving time, the chance to detect a strike package just by IRST is more than low.




that is for previous gen IRST not for long wave IRST have higher detection range. But we dont know the what type of IRST the chinese have so we cant ignore that possibilty that they could have acquire that IRST too also by fair or unfair means. We Cant underestimate the chinese ' capabilty
& IRST is not used for early warning as it is used for targeting basically that too passively immune to jamming .


Signal detection via RWR has it's limitations how many times i have to repeat that




you again back tracking from prevoius posts

you have said even in active mode a stealth plane is also less detectable than non stealthy fighter

what i want to say

AESA tech remains the same for any gen fighter so if AWACS RWR/ Fighter plane RWR detects it's EM emissions then they are alerted of some flying object . So The fighter which have IRST can head in that direction in a passive mode to detect the threat .

So IR emisions of any plane through air frictions cant be neglected so an IRST would detect that plane if it remains still in active mode by closing in through that direction where EM emissions are coming .


But if the active mode stealth fighter diverts away from the passive stealth fighter package (formation) then only the passsive stealth package wont be detected by patrolling fighters or else cover would be blown for passive stealth fighter package (formation)







No, I am refering on how Rafale or other fighters are used in SEAD operations. You always have 1 fighter that tries to provoke and detect the air defences and other, that will take them out. In Libya the only difference was, that the defence systems had low range and could be attacked with AASM from high altitude too, but if they are more capable, you need to bring the weapon closer to the target and the way to do that, is to avoid detection:

http://www11.pic-upload.de/12.09.14/g59er3ybged5.jpg

Yes that is main part
how could you avoid detection in SEAD mission against enemies which have


a)long range SAM radars & SAM missiles

b) AWACS

c) aerostat


without the use of Electronic Warfare in case of Non stealthy fighters with {EFTS & PGMS/CRUISE MISSILES}no matter how low you fly plus whether you are in active or passive mode .

Rafale has this advantage which gives him the edge over SU 30 mki which has to carry external jamming pods to do the same thing .

Rafale's EW also includes Active cancellation tech plus with advent of AESA radar it can be used for EA
SU 30mki EW would also improve with induction of AESA radar plus latest russian tech on EW

The US are also still inversting on EA -18 growler future upgrades even if they may be having 5th gen fighters .











Which is not true, we know that low flying Russian fighters were able to avoid AWACS detection of US carrier groups. Greek Mirage 2000s and F16s were able to avoid E-2 detection during an exercise with the French carrier, not to mention that having AWACS alone doesn't help, if you can't put it in action in useful numbers to cover the whole area and in a useful rotation as it is the case for us now. We are able to support our fighters and ground troops with AWACS in war times today, but we are not able to provide a full coverage of the border areas at 24/7 anytime soon and only if that is possible, with additional overlapping features like aerostats and ground radars, you will get a high possibility to counter low level attack approaches.

citing one or two examples doesnt prove that it would work always in other scenario also.

You must understand that those examples which you have posted has many different factors which needs to be weigh in to come
into any conclusions

1) Topography
sea water is usually flat meanwhile land has uneven surfaces ( Plaetaeu + mountains + Trees + buildings) one cannot fly
uniformly low above land like that someone flies above the surface of sea water

what i meant to say despite having Terrain avoiding softwares installed in a plane you got to fly sometimes high plus low in order to avoid collision which can make you vulnerable in detection sometimes

2) E 2 previous versions were inferior compare to latest version E2d
plus you never know had the fighter planes used their EWs or not along with flying low !!!

3) In land you gonna have other factors also along with AWACS like aerostat plus reconnaise UAVs for surveillance plus NET centric warfare combinations (advanced satellite connectivity plus Cyber ) avoiding their detection purely on basis of low flying without use of EW suite for a nonstealthy plane . I would say Then the pilot must be a damn lucky guy if it indeed goes undetected .


The 2 front war is not a strategy, but the worst case that IAF is trying to prepare for. Therefor they need to be able to have full AWACS coverage of both boder sides at any given time, not only at 1, which is why they estimate that they need around 15 x AWACS to do that in a propper rotation.

Infact plans are there for 20 awacs if you trust citations on wikipedia .But time would tell how many india does inducts
in future





Wrong, that's even what Rafale or the coming upgrades of MKIs with long range attack capabilities are about, hittin China deep in their hinterland, be it from distance or by penetrating and the importance of that should be very obvious too, because the only way to counter their numerical superiority in the air, is to attack their airbases on the ground. The more you take out or at least damage to keep them out of operations for a certain time, the less opponents you have in the air and that includes their AWACS aircrafts.
That's even the common tactic in all wars, even against far less capable countries (Libya, Iraq, Kosovo war up to the WW's), reducing the combat capability of the enemy air force by destroying as many air bases belongs to the first attacks in a war.

Hey wait a minute
you have twisted my post to post totally another thing. The previous post was for AWACS basically when did i say it cant
carry cruise missile .

But ok you have started another topic regarding Air launch long range cruise missile

sadly the same scenario applies for Cruise missiles what do you think latest SAMs are for to engage only planes or what!!

they can also engage cruise missiles & drones also

plus AWACS/AEROSTAT combination can also detect low flying terrain hugging cruise missiles also

The fighter jets can also be used to target cruise missiles if they are in patrol in the skies




Stealth cruise missiles can be taken by missile shape or design or by default as it is terrain hugging

plus high speed cruise missile gives less reaction time to their targets to react



but once again it 's effectiveness depends upon the strength & weakness of the self defence of it's target which includes everything which i have posted for aircraft also .

THe point is to detect the cruise missile as early as possible to engage/intercept them succesfully

Interesting i have read somewhere french were trying to use active cancellation tech for Cruise missiles also



09fc27938c46b7faab07fd516a491f10.jpg



Rafale, Dassault-Breguet

CHEERS
 
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Who says next bombing, also said air or targeting support. As in the Harmattan operation in Libya in 2011, commandos and CPA10 CPA20 (paratroopers from the air), specialized in supporting engagement in depth fighter jets are on site.

My friend, don't mix CPA10 and CPA 20 plesae... Or we'll have an issue. Presence of CPA20 is dubious as they are not part of COS. I'd bet on 13 RDP instead ;)


Source: Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 667

Two new study plans from DGA, one fro EFCAS, one for Rafale...

ttu » Coopération et souveraineté
 
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