Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[halloweene]

Wait end of june Sancho
Here is the latest first flight btw (B-347)

 

[sancho]

Wait end of june Sancho

The end of June doesn't change anything as even Mr Tappier said, I am only stating the current situation, be it of the fighters, as well as the political changes and you can't deny the fact that it actually got worse with Rafale during the last few years. When the offer was made in MMRCA, before the trials, only the HMS "needed" to be funded. IRST was under production, the Damocles XF planned within the timeline of the competition and the potential of AASM quiet good. Today all these things have changed, mainly for French centric reasons, but they are counterproductive for exports.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The end of June doesn't change anything as even Mr Tappier said, I am only stating the current situation, be it of the fighters, as well as the political changes and you can't deny the fact that it actually got worse with Rafale during the last few years. When the offer was made in MMRCA, before the trials, only the HMS "needed" to be funded. IRST was under production, the Damocles XF planned within the timeline of the competition and the potential of AASM quiet good. Today all these things have changed, mainly for French centric reasons, but they are counterproductive for exports.

To be honest I don't see the BJP cancelling or amending the Rafale selection for a number of reasons 1) they have criticised Antony for inaction, they come in and their first step is to stall a procurement that has been pending for years, to delay the scrapping of the famed "flying coffins"? I just don't see it. The deal is so close to completion and all the boxes have been ticked bar a few, there's nothing to be gained from scrapping it- NOTHING. You may argue that the BJP would favour the LCA but they aren't stupid and they will be informed of the Rafale's capabilities vis a vis the LCA and how one is not a replacement for the other. And I still don't see a chance for the EFT to come back into the fray, you've said the BJP might take objection to the Rafale's cost? If they say that about the lowest L1 fighter, what will they say about the L2? 2) The IAF will be making their case for the Rafale and they are going to be pushing like hell for it, they know the deal is but weeks away from signing and they aren't going to wait years more, it just can't be done. Modi himself said he would respect and listen to the views of the armed forces and has been briefed by the 3 Cheifs on pending procurements and you can bet this was number 1 on the list. There's no reason for Modi to want to upset the apple cart. 3) there are no grounds to really attack the MMRCA selection process that has got to the Rafale, it has been clean throughout and there is no question of graft- the one achilles heel in every indian procurement that can scupper it in an instant. 4) with the Congress having championed the Rafale throughout and Antony assuring all that this was an apolitical decision there aren't even political grounds for any side to question it.


I respect your views a lot sir but you seem to be highly skeptical the Rafale will get through but I just don't see where you are coming form or were this cynical approach is coming from. I am expecting a deal before the end of Summer, right now the cabinet hasn't even been formed so it is early days but defence is something Modi has already pointed out as a key concern of his and the Rafale will be ordered of that I am certain.


Additionally i've heard that Dassualt have been talking to the BJP for a few months now anyway preparing for just this eventuality.


As for the Domocles XF issues, what's the problem? The IAF will happily take the LITENING G4 anyway which always looked likely as was as the LDP was one of the user designated equipment that all vendors had to assure the IAF would be given the free hand to pick at their whim. Additionally the work to integrate the TOPSIGHT-I HMDS is minimal as Dassualt have already begun intial integration work for the the TOPSIGHT HMDS on the Rafale years back but not pursued it very far but are going to have to do it on the IAF's Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s anyway and if the Russians could get the TOPSIGHT-I integrated onto the MIG-29Ks and MIG-29UPGs at little expense and difficulty there there is not going to be any real issue for the Rafale. As for AASM, if there is issues with cost and such then the IAF will simply go for the SPICE products form Rafael, they are already looking at these products for the LCA, M2K and MKI.

 

[Indo-guy]

Livefist: Will India's New Govt Speed Up Multirole Fighter Deal?

Speculation is self-perpetuating. Who will be India's next Defence Minister? Will there be a major shake-up in the MoD? Are bureaucrats running to edit files that could incriminate them in a supposedly less forgiving set-up that takes office next week? What happens to the long list of unfinished procurements, many of them in their final stages, even if that phrase has lost much of its intended meaning in the Indian acquisition context? The truth is, everything came to a shuddering halt at the turn of the year, and hasn't moved since. But that isn't extraordinary. Election season this time has meant, either through force of rules that kick in, or by an understandable escalation of man-in-charge AK Antony's risk-averse approach, decisions got shelved. Thing is, this hasn't always been the case: in 2004, mere weeks before elections, the government of the time concluded a raft of high-value deals, including the Gorshkov and Phalcon AWACS. That same political coalition takes office next week, albeit with an enormously strengthened mandate. In the context of mil modernisation, I'd say that's a good thing.
Anxiety about what could happen to defence procurements initiated by the outgoing government may not be fully in order. Because as with foreign policy, defence modernisation follows a general thread of continuity. Procurement processes begun by one government usually see the next government follow through. I've been getting calls from a folks asking about whether the M-MRCA deal could see a push. Likely, yes. The outgoing defence minister made ambiguous indications about a 're-look' at crucial aspects of the deal, pertaining specifically to life-cycle costs. The Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha is reported to be planning a presentation to the new Prime Minister and the defence minister he chooses, likely early next month. It is clear that the fighter deal tops his list of modernisation priorities.
On their part, the French government and Dassault Aviation have spent the year showing the Rafale off even more, in a series of manoeuvers directed straight at India. It began in January when the IAF was briefed about flight tests of the Rafale in a new 'heavily armed' configuration. In April this year, two Rafales flew non-stop with a tanker from France to Reunion Island in the Southern Indian Ocean for an exercise, an event that the French Embassy in Delhi made it a point to flag up. Also, four French Air Force Rafales will fly in early next month for the Garuda-V joint exercise with the IAF over the deserts of Western India.
The incoming dispensation is perceived to be more sensitive to military needs, certainly far more than the outgoing one. We'll know what they do with that reputation this year. In its last tenure between 1999-2004, the coalition was hailed as understanding modernisation and military affairs better than any dispensation before it. A thundering mandate, that precludes the political sensitivity of tough decisions, means that the military may have some real reason to cheer for the first time in a decade. That's, at least, the hope.

 

[halloweene]

The end of June doesn't change anything as even Mr Tappier said, I am only stating the current situation, be it of the fighters, as well as the political changes and you can't deny the fact that it actually got worse with Rafale during the last few years. When the offer was made in MMRCA, before the trials, only the HMS "needed" to be funded. IRST was under production, the Damocles XF planned within the timeline of the competition and the potential of AASM quiet good. Today all these things have changed, mainly for French centric reasons, but they are counterproductive for exports.

I wasn't talking about India when i said June my friend...

An idustrial source (but quite far from the deal so...) told me that 3 countries were asking for fast delivery atm.

 

[sancho]

1) they have criticised Antony for inaction, they come in and their first step is to stall a procurement that has been pending for years, to delay the scrapping of the famed "flying coffins"?

Just like they criticized the Rafale numerous times, so by the same logic they MUST take a decision against it, which hopefully is not the case, since their criticized it for nonsense reasons. You are also confusing taking a decision with selecting Rafale, but that's not the same. As I told you earlier, they have 3 options and taking Rafale is just 1 of it.
And the fastest solution to replace Mig 21s currently is not Rafale either, adding at least another LCA MK1 squadron to the production line before it will switch to MK2 is possible, just like we can get more EF T3A's before we would get the first Rafale squadron. Which shows again, that depending on what the policy of BJP will be in this regard, things can change according to the priorities they see.

EFT to come back into the fray, you've said the BJP might take objection to the Rafale's cost?

No I didn't, I said that they might want to re-evaluate the shortlisting, based on their own priorities. If that happens, the EF has any chance to win as well, since it's not out yet, the Rafale currently is only the prefered choice, but from the older government!

3) there are no grounds to really attack the MMRCA selection process that has got to the Rafale

That's what they did for a number of times, especially against Rafale! It actually would make look them pretty bad, when they criticized the fighter and the procedure of shortlisting and now simply would select it. That would even work against your point of being decisive, since they would make a U turn of what they stated, I wouldn't mind it though.

but I just don't see where you are coming form or were this cynical approach is coming from.

- BJPs statements against Rafale, the procedure and their policy statements aimed on indigenous developments
- the fact that we have a new government, with an own defence policy (that will be developed now) and own prioirities
- the fact that BJP has a high priority towards foreign industrial partners, which makes the EF consortium and their better industrial offer preferable
- the fact that the industrial negotiations delayed the selection for more than 2 years and that IAF has to take the changes of the fighters and the time frame into account as well. It would be nuts if they keep basing the fighters bases on what was on offer in 2012
- and sadly even the fact that the Rafale has several issues today, that wasn't available or that bad 2 years ago

As for the Domocles XF issues, what's the problem?

Additional cost for integrating a new LDP, that wasn't needed if the Damocles XF would had been available as offered initially. If it has hardly the capabilities comparable to the Litening, IAF/MoD would save the additional costs, as can be seen now in the selection of Asraam over Python V for the Jaguar upgrade. But the French changed the situation by going for PDL NG by 2018 only and offering the clearly inferior Damocles that is available today.
So we don't have to fund only the HMS as initially, but now also the Litening and even the production of the IRST => additional costs that weren't present in the initial offer!
We can't simply ignore this changes, only because we like the Rafale, the aim must be to get the best package for IAF and these downers needs to be included in the overall evalution.

I wasn't talking about India when i said June my friend...

An idustrial source (but quite far from the deal so...) told me that 3 countries were asking for fast delivery atm.

Which actually would make it even worse for India, because that means Dassault can provide even less fighters to India in a fast approach.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.



ILA2014: Czechs showcase Gripen C at Berlin, as Saab promises future upgrades - IHS Jane's 360

Nya uppgifter: Gamla Jas Gripen ska inte slaktas - Omni

Unfortunately, noone told the Swedish Government that the economy is in bad shape,
because they propose 70 new Gripen E (not rebuilt) in their "spring proposition".
I read Swedish Newspapers and watch Swedish news every day. Trust me!

 

[DacterSaab]

hi could someone pls explain what is the difference b/w LGB like Griffin and PGM like AASM or Spice series?

 

[sancho]

I read Swedish Newspapers and watch Swedish news every day. Trust me!

No offence, but I stick to official reports about the order and they are pretty clear.

hi could someone pls explain what is the difference b/w LGB like Griffin and PGM like AASM or Spice series?

AASM has GPS and INS guidance too, apart from a laser seeker, just like it has a range extention kit, with a rocket propulsion. SPICE kits mainly use a wing kit to extent range, has IR/CCD seekers, apart from GPS/INS guidance

 

[Agent_47]

AASM has GPS and INS guidance too, apart from a laser seeker, just like it has a range extention kit, with a rocket propulsion. SPICE kits mainly use a wing kit to extent range, has IR/CCD seekers, apart from GPS/INS guidance

Both are used to add precision to dumb bombs, rite?

 

[sancho]

Both are used to add precision to dumb bombs, rite?

Yes compared to older dumb bombs, but LGB usually only use laser guidance and have far less range than many PGMs. Today the trend goes to smaller PGMs with different guidance capabilities to attack stationary and moving targets, in stand off ranges, with all weather capabilities and in higher weapon loads.

MKI for example can carry around 28 x 100 to 250Kg dumb bombs, but only 6 x KAB 500 PGMs or Sudarshan LGBs, all launched from low ranges below 15Km.
If SPICE 250 for example would be integrated, at least 5 x quad packs could be added with 20 bombs (most likely even more), which can attack targets with high precision from distances up to 100Km

 

[halloweene]

Well... AASM has IIR capbilities also. I know about the flightblobal article about 100 Kms range, but on Rafael site it is "over 60Kms" (which is already impressive). Once again, gliding bombs are a better bang for the buck but lack versatility vs proppeled.

 

[sancho]

I know about the flightblobal article about 100 Kms range, but on Rafael site it is "over 60Kms"

For the SPICE family, which so far included the 1000 and the 2000. The 60Km is the range for the SPICE 2000, the smaller SPICE 1000 however has a wingkit which further extends the range to 100Km, that's why they stated over 60Km. The latest addtion of SPICE 250 is also aimed at 100Km and that, without a propulsion kit.

 

[cloud_9]

Full-Time Defence Minister To Be Named in a 'Couple of Weeks': Arun Jaitley | NDTV.com

He expressed concern over what he called a slowdown in decision-making in defence during the Congress-led UPA regime and said expediting procurement and modernisation in the armed forces would be a top priority of the new government.

"The security of India is of vital importance. Support to our armed forces and equipment support is going to be priority area," he said.

As Mr Jaitley took over came news that a MIG-21 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force had crashed in the Bijbehara area of Anantnag district in Kashmir, killing the pilot. "My heart goes out to the pilot and his family. It's a matter of great concern (today's accident). I offer my condolences," the minister said. (MiG-21 Crashes in J&K, Pilot Dead)

 

[sancho]

Another pic from the ILA Air Show, with SPEAR 3 and Brimstone missiles: