Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[kaykay]

Will this Rafael tender should be turned in to getting all of the 150 FAF Mirages-2000 with new upgrade???

India won't go for second hands aircrafts. Rafale all the way with ToTs.

 

[Black Eagle 90]

India won't go for second hands aircrafts. Rafale all the way with ToTs.

200 Rafael since 2009????

 

[kaykay]

200 Rafael since 2009????

Are you mentally sick? No offense brother, Just asking.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

we dont have oil wells like you!!

Coming from someone who's country is the world's largest military importer, this excerise is null and void.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Okay, Since the DR was picked out of six aircrafts, why didn't India sign the contract then?

I'm sorry but this is an illogical comparison. India's MMRCA IS unique in modern history- 6 competing aircraft from 6 different manufactures with complex offset and ToT requirements. The IAF had to test each individual a/c on over 600 pre-defined parameters both in India and in their home nation, compile a detailed report highlighting their preference that went to the MoD and only then were the bids opened and negations begun. What India has achieved is quite remarkable and the bidders have been nothing but praising of the selection and bidding process similarly other countries (Brazil for e.g.) had expressed interest in the IAF's selection reports for which the IAF has applied a patent to.

In short the MMRCA is unique in defence procurement history. Yes there may be bigger deals in pure dollar terms but in terms of scale and complexity the MMRCA is in a class of one hence the time taken, even that time it has taken is not unreasonable really.



Nonsense, this really is. India has never asked for a discount, it will pay for what best meets its needs. Similarly the Indian side's demand for ToT has been constant and hasn't fluctuated and is the same as it was outlined in the RFPs.


Please tell me who the F-15SA went up against? How many parameters did the RSAF look at before selecting the SA? What kind of industrial benefits has SA seen? What kind of ToT have you got with them?

According to former Defense Secretary Gates, the F-15SA was picked up out of three options i.e.the DR, a Russian aircraft. The RSAF was more comfortable with theF-15SA given the fact that we have been operating the F-15 for more than 30 years.

We chose the F-15SA due to the fact that it matched our standards, demands.

As for the industrial benefit we are getting, Al-Salam Aviation industry is taking care building several components, while Boeing is building others.

 

[Sergi]

We chose the F-15SA due to the fact that it matched our standards, demands.
.

Thats your keyword

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Thats your keyword

Of course! The specifications of the F-15SA was made by the RSAF. Otherwise we would have rejected it just like the F-16 Block 40 which was offered to us to replace the F-5s.

 

[Roybot]

Are you mentally sick? No offense brother, Just asking.

No he is Nishan_101

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

No he is Nishan_101

I think he is Nishan.

I kind of notice a similar attitude.

 

[Roybot]

I think he is Nishan.

I kind of notice a similar attitude.

It definitely him, he comes back with this id when his other one gets banned.

 

[DacterSaab]

OK since i sense some conflict on which fighter was safer for future i have a silly solution.

LETS MAKE A LIST!!!

Finalists

1. Dassault Rafale

Confirmed
France - 180 ordered (286 planned + 9 optional)

Probable
India - 126 planned + 63 optional (Navy may buy up-to 40 more)
UAE - up-to 60
Qatar - 24 to 36
Kuwait -18 to 22
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia - unknown numbers
Bahrain - unknown numbers

2. EADS Eurofighter Typhoon

Confirmed
U.K. - 160 ordered
Germany -143 ordered
Italy - 96 ordered
Spain - 73 ordered
Saudi Arabia - 72 ordered
Austria -15 delivered
Oman - 12 ordered

Probable
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Qatar - 24 to 36
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Peru - 18
Serbia - 6
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia, Bahrain - unknown numbers

Unless more are ordered soon production will cease

Also Ran

3. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

Confirmed
USA - 515 naval order + 114 Growler variant + small no. operated by USMC
Australia - 24 delivered + 12 Growler planned

Probable
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia, UAE, Greece, Bulgaria, Belgium - unknown numbers

4. Saab JAS 39 Gripen

Confirmed
Sweden - 204 ordered
South Africa - 26 ordered
Hungary - 14 leased
Czech Republic -14 leased
Thailand -12 delivered + 6 under consideration
U.K. - few used by test school

Probable
Brazil - 36 to 120
Switzerland - 22
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Finland, Oman, Slovakia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Philipines have also shown interest.

5. Mikoyan MiG-35

Confirmed
Russia - 37 planned to be ordered in 2016

Probable
Egypt - 24

6. General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon

more than 4500 units in service with 26 different countries world-wide

Brunei, Bulgaria, Columbia, Croatia, Philippines and Romania may also buy.

Please understand this is just raw data put together to aid discussion I do not intend to imply anything.

 

[he-man]

OK since i sense some conflict on which fighter was safer for future i have a silly solution.

LETS MAKE A LIST!!!

Finalists

1. Dassault Rafale

Confirmed
France - 180 ordered (286 planned + 9 optional)

Probable
India - 126 planned + 63 optional (Navy may buy up-to 40 more)
UAE - up-to 60
Qatar - 24 to 36
Kuwait -18 to 22
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia - unknown numbers
Bahrain - unknown numbers

2. EADS Eurofighter Typhoon

Confirmed
U.K. - 160 ordered
Germany -143 ordered
Italy - 96 ordered
Spain - 73 ordered
Saudi Arabia - 72 ordered
Austria -15 delivered
Oman - 12 ordered

Probable
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Qatar - 24 to 36
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Peru - 18
Serbia - 6
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia, Bahrain - unknown numbers

Unless more are ordered soon production will cease

Also Ran

3. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

Confirmed
USA - 515 naval order + 114 Growler variant + small no. operated by USMC
Australia - 24 delivered + 12 Growler planned

Probable
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia, UAE, Greece, Bulgaria, Belgium - unknown numbers

4. Saab JAS 39 Gripen

Confirmed
Sweden - 204 ordered
South Africa - 26 ordered
Hungary - 14 leased
Czech Republic -14 leased
Thailand -12 delivered + 6 under consideration
U.K. - few used by test school

Probable
Brazil - 36 to 120
Switzerland - 22
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Finland, Oman, Slovakia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Philipines have also shown interest.

5. Mikoyan MiG-35

Confirmed
Russia - 37 planned to be ordered in 2016

Probable
Egypt - 24

6. General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon

more than 4500 units in service with 26 different countries world-wide

Brunei, Bulgaria, Columbia, Croatia, Philippines and Romania may also buy.

Please understand this is just raw data put together to aid discussion I do not intend to imply anything.

Add pakfa too.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

KSA's Royal Navy is also interested in the Rafale .. we signed two MOUs.

OK since i sense some conflict on which fighter was safer for future i have a silly solution.

LETS MAKE A LIST!!!

Finalists

1. Dassault Rafale

Confirmed
France - 180 ordered (286 planned + 9 optional)

Probable
India - 126 planned + 63 optional (Navy may buy up-to 40 more)
UAE - up-to 60
Qatar - 24 to 36
Kuwait -18 to 22
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia - unknown numbers
Bahrain - unknown numbers

2. EADS Eurofighter Typhoon

Confirmed
U.K. - 160 ordered
Germany -143 ordered
Italy - 96 ordered
Spain - 73 ordered
Saudi Arabia - 72 ordered
Austria -15 delivered
Oman - 12 ordered

Probable
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Qatar - 24 to 36
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Peru - 18
Serbia - 6
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia, Bahrain - unknown numbers

Unless more are ordered soon production will cease

Also Ran

3. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

Confirmed
USA - 515 naval order + 114 Growler variant + small no. operated by USMC
Australia - 24 delivered + 12 Growler planned

Probable
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia, UAE, Greece, Bulgaria, Belgium - unknown numbers

4. Saab JAS 39 Gripen

Confirmed
Sweden - 204 ordered
South Africa - 26 ordered
Hungary - 14 leased
Czech Republic -14 leased
Thailand -12 delivered + 6 under consideration
U.K. - few used by test school

Probable
Brazil - 36 to 120
Switzerland - 22
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Finland, Oman, Slovakia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Philipines have also shown interest.

5. Mikoyan MiG-35

Confirmed
Russia - 37 planned to be ordered in 2016

Probable
Egypt - 24

6. General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon

more than 4500 units in service with 26 different countries world-wide

Brunei, Bulgaria, Columbia, Croatia, Philippines and Romania may also buy.

Please understand this is just raw data put together to aid discussion I do not intend to imply anything.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Okay, Since the DR was picked out of six aircrafts, why didn't India sign the contract then?

Just like it took SA 2 years to hash out a deal with the US on the F-15SA which would have involved discussions on costs, spares, training to air and ground crew , weapons, ground support infrastructure, sensor suite etc etc India has had to undertake similar negations with DR except with a great deal more complexity involved as ToT and offsets have slowed down the process significantly not to mention one-off issues like a work-share agreement tussle and the like. I can assure you Boeing isn't obliged to plough back 50% of the F-15SA deal into Indian industry so these DR-Indian talks have taken around 3 years (deal is now waiting for the next GoI to come in but is effectively closed) which is entirely understandable.

The 2-3 years before that were used for comparative trails and evaluations between the 6 entrants into the MMRCA competition. Again, the RSAF simply did NOT conduct as an exhaustive evaluative process as the IAF did- they may have conducted a somewhat thorough specifications review based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers but did they ever trail the respective bidding fighters in country or send their test pilots abroad to test the bidders in their home nations? Nope. The fact you can't even name the Russian a/c Robert Gates has speculated took part (btw highly predujiced source of information don't you think considering his nation's a/c won out) says a lot about the opaqueness of the SA election process. Again, I'll ask, did the RSAF have to compile 100s of page reports on each individual a/c judging 600+ parameters? The answer is a flat NO.


On top of all this throw in the fact India is a parliamentary democracy which has thrown up its own issues from time to time (countless probes have been ordered into the MMRCA selection process because the opposition parties called it into question, getting of absolutely scot-free every time but slowing the process down no end) whilst SA is a monarchy and for the most part would be negotiating with the USG (whom it has VERY close ties to). It doesn't take a genius to see which nation might be more efficient in this regard.

As for the industrial benefit we are getting, Al-Salam Aviation industry is taking care building several components, while Boeing is building others.

Again, I'm sorry but this is not comparable to the MMRCA competition at all. The MMRCA RFPs specifically outline that 50% of the contract will be plunged back into Indian industry over time, there is significant ToT and apart from an initial off the shelf delivery of a/c all fighters will be built in India by Indian industry with an increasing level of indigenous content.

Heck, Indian firms right now make components for Boeing (for F-18 and 787) without the MMRCA even going Boeing's way.




The F-15SA and MMRCA selection processes are chalk and cheese sir, there really is little to be gained in comparing them. If the media and certain people are unable to comprehend the sheer scale of the MMRCA's selection process then that is entirely their failing. Indians should be nothing but proud of the professional and thorough work that has gone into the MMRCA procurement and India, ultimately, will reap the benefits of this hard work....

According to former Defense Secretary Gates, the F-15SA was picked up out of three options i.e.the DR, a Russian aircraft. The RSAF was more comfortable with theF-15SA given the fact that we have been operating the F-15 for more than 30 years.

 

[sancho]

Okay, Since the DR was picked out of six aircrafts, why didn't India sign the contract then?

According to former Defense Secretary Gates, the F-15SA was picked up out of three options i.e.the DR

So he knew more than Dassault itself, which never stated that they are in a competition in Saudi? There was no competition even close to be compared to the MMRCA, nor are the industrial requirements even close to be as in the MMRCA, btw didn't your airforce ordered just around 80 new fighters and an upgrade for the older once? India ordered 42 new MKIs and an upgrade for around 100 older MKIs, but that are not 142 new fighters right?
So you added less fighters than MMRCA's minimum requirement, to the once you already had with barely any similar ToT or offset benefits, which makes only the total price comparable to MMRCA.

The reasons why the MMRCA is still not fixed are different once, IAF took too long to evaluate and shortlist fighters, which caused that new financial bids of the shortlisted vendors must be issued, the final selection took time and since 2 years we basically wait that the industrial and price negotiations will be done. The problem now is, that it got delayed till the elections and that we now have to wait and see what the outcome of that will be. Nothing will happen before that and what will happen after that is completely open.