Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Yzd Khalifa]

Plenty is there for rafale,don't worry

I just want to see the DR in the hands of the IAF, then the UAE will fallow suit

 

[sancho]

It is because the RSNF has an independent Air Arms on its own.

Now we getting to the real reasons! So there is no operational need, but just some beef between your forces. However, that doesn't mean a different type of fighter will be procured, when you already have the capability and the fighters for it. You simply add numbers and divert them to the navy, so either some of the F15s or order more EFs.

We are still waiting till a decision is reached. In any given day, the Saudi-Franco relations is going nowhere but forward. There is no need for political motive when it comes to arms procurement in our book. At the end of the day, we will always introduce what we need the most to enhance our self-defensive capabilities, and that's that.

Yeah sure, because nothing is politically motivated in the KSA. Dassault surely didn't forget how you rejected Rafale in favour for the EF and on what basis that selection was done at the end.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Just like it took SA 2 years to hash out a deal with the US on the F-15SA which would have involved discussions on costs, spares, training to air and ground crew , weapons, ground support infrastructure, sensor suite

No deal is being sealed so far without ToTs

For Example:

BAE Systems Saudi Arabia in ToT contract with Al-Salam and AEC
Saudi Arabia to Manufacture F-15SA Wings Locally
Saudi's AEC to Develop F-15SA Sub-systems and AMRAAMs
Alsalam builds F-15 parts | Arab News — Saudi Arabia News, Middle East News, Opinion, Economy and more.

I can assure you Boeing isn't obliged to plough back 50% of the F-15SA deal into Indian industry

It is up to you to decide which suits your country. To us, we would like to have a full-privatization of our industry. We do allow investments in certain sectors within, otherwise, we wouldn't have nationalized the Saudi Arabian BAE.

Again, the RSAF simply did NOT conduct as an exhaustive evaluative

Why should we waste time when we already know what suits us the best?

Did it take from the UK 7 years of exhaustive evaluative examinations to procure the F-35? No, same goes with China whenever its mulls to buy a Russian-made warplane.

they may have conducted a somewhat thorough specifications review based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers but did they ever trail the respective bidding fighters in country or send their test pilots abroad to test the bidders in their home nations? Nope

What makes you think the Saudi didn't? They did sign a MOU with France, the UK, and the US. If they didn't show a true level of seriousness or knowledge, they wouldn't have gone this far, which eventually makes your argument null and void. It is the duty of the MoD R&D's to decide which suits the RSAF and which does't, not the " based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers "

Our ETF will even become ahead of all Typhoon-program partners.

Again, I'll ask, did the RSAF have to compile 100s of page reports on each individual a/c judging 600+ parameters? The answer is a flat NO.

I don't think the length of the report will determine the outcome of a competition. What you could have done to save time is to lay out your parameters, terms & conditions, and needs.

The fact you can't even name the Russian a/c Robert Gates has speculated took part (btw highly predujiced source of information don't you think considering his nation's a/c won out) says a lot about the opaqueness of the SA election process.

What the then-Secretary of Defense " Gates " was trying to say in a jest - of course - was on the fact that the US will lose the bid if their requirements isn't matched, and they might consider option B or even C. Rape, elections, terrorism, and poverty has nothing to do with it. It just is as simple as that.

Just like it took SA 2 years to hash out a deal with the US on the F-15SA which would have involved discussions on costs, spares, training to air and ground crew , weapons, ground support infrastructure, sensor suite etc etc India has had to undertake similar negations with DR except with a great deal more complexity involved as ToT and offsets have slowed down the process significantly not to mention one-off issues like a work-share agreement tussle and the like. I can assure you Boeing isn't obliged to plough back 50% of the F-15SA deal into Indian industry so these DR-Indian talks have taken around 3 years (deal is now waiting for the next GoI to come in but is effectively closed) which is entirely understandable.

The 2-3 years before that were used for comparative trails and evaluations between the 6 entrants into the MMRCA competition. Again, the RSAF simply did NOT conduct as an exhaustive evaluative process as the IAF did- they may have conducted a somewhat thorough specifications review based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers but did they ever trail the respective bidding fighters in country or send their test pilots abroad to test the bidders in their home nations? Nope. The fact you can't even name the Russian a/c Robert Gates has speculated took part (btw highly predujiced source of information don't you think considering his nation's a/c won out) says a lot about the opaqueness of the SA election process. Again, I'll ask, did the RSAF have to compile 100s of page reports on each individual a/c judging 600+ parameters? The answer is a flat NO.


On top of all this throw in the fact India is a parliamentary democracy which has thrown up its own issues from time to time (countless probes have been ordered into the MMRCA selection process because the opposition parties called it into question, getting of absolutely scot-free every time but slowing the process down no end) whilst SA is a monarchy and for the most part would be negotiating with the USG (whom it has VERY close ties to). It doesn't take a genius to see which nation might be more efficient in this regard.




Again, I'm sorry but this is not comparable to the MMRCA competition at all. The MMRCA RFPs specifically outline that 50% of the contract will be plunged back into Indian industry over time, there is significant ToT and apart from an initial off the shelf delivery of a/c all fighters will be built in India by Indian industry with an increasing level of indigenous content.

Heck, Indian firms right now make components for Boeing (for F-18 and 787) without the MMRCA even going Boeing's way.




The F-15SA and MMRCA selection processes are chalk and cheese sir, there really is little to be gained in comparing them. If the media and certain people are unable to comprehend the sheer scale of the MMRCA's selection process then that is entirely their failing. Indians should be nothing but proud of the professional and thorough work that has gone into the MMRCA procurement and India, ultimately, will reap the benefits of this hard work....

Now we getting to the real reasons! So there is no operational need, but just some beef between your forces. However, that doesn't mean a different type of fighter will be procured, when you already have the capability and the fighters for it. You simply add numbers and divert them to the navy, so either some of the F15s or order more EFs.



Yeah sure, because nothing is politically motivated in the KSA. Dassault surely didn't forget how you rejected Rafale in favour for the EF and on what basis that selection was done at the end.

Is it similar to Russia's political reason to stop its arms sales to India?

I hope it won't!
Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India - Hindustan Times
Political reasons happen in many case but not in everything, every time, and every single project.

 

[he-man]

No deal is being sealed so far without ToTs

For Example:

BAE Systems Saudi Arabia in ToT contract with Al-Salam and AEC
Saudi Arabia to Manufacture F-15SA Wings Locally
Saudi's AEC to Develop F-15SA Sub-systems and AMRAAMs
Alsalam builds F-15 parts | Arab News — Saudi Arabia News, Middle East News, Opinion, Economy and more.



It is up to you to decide which suits your country. To us, we would like to have a full-privatization of our industry. We do allow investments in certain sectors within, otherwise, we wouldn't have nationalized the Saudi Arabian BAE.



Why should we waste time when we already know what suits us the best?

Did it take from the UK 7 years of exhaustive evaluative examinations to procure the F-35? No, same goes with China whenever its mulls to buy a Russian-made warplane.



What makes you think the Saudi didn't? They did sign a MOU with France, the UK, and the US. If they didn't show a true level of seriousness or knowledge, they wouldn't have gone this far, which eventually makes your argument null and void. It is the duty of the MoD R&D's to decide which suits the RSAF and which does't, not the " based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers "

Our ETF will even become ahead of all Typhoon-program partners.



I don't think the length of the report will determine the outcome of a competition. What you could have done to save time is to lay out your parameters, terms & conditions, and needs.



What the then-Secretary of Defense " Gates " was trying to say in a jest - of course - was on the fact that the US will lose the bid if their requirements isn't matched, and they might consider option B or even C. Rape, elections, terrorism, and poverty has nothing to do with it. It just is as simple as that.







Is it similar to Russia's political reason to stop its arms sales to India?

I hope it won't!
Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India - Hindustan Times
Political reasons happen in many case but not in everything, every time, and every single project.

Then where else will they sell,lol

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Then where else will they sell,lol

Do you have any idea about how many F-35s are on order?

Bah, the US military complex produces a tragic load of sh!t with KSA or without her.

 

[he-man]

Do you have any idea about how many F-35s are on order?

Bah, the US military complex produces a tragic load of sh!t with KSA or without her.

Trust me I know that.
I was talking about russians

 

[sancho]

Is it similar to Russia's political reason to stop its arms sales to India?
Political reasons happen in many case but not in everything, every time, and every single project.

Russia is dependent on sales and funds from India or China, now more than ever before with the Ukraine crisis, so don't bet on bad media reports. We could discuss, that your country is highly dependent on the US and the UK, on what weapon systems they allow you, under what terms and so on, but that won't lead nowhere except of derailing the thread further.
The fact is, Rafale has next to no chance to be selected in your country, other than for political reasons, or as you pointed out, that your navy wants and own airwing and be independent from the air force and not for any operational needs. But when you take to account that your country is even trying to convince other Gulf countries (Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar) to procure the EF and not the Rafale, it should be clear what the navy might get.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Russia is dependent on sales and funds from India or China, now more than ever before with the Ukraine crisis

Point taken. The whole point which I was trying to make is that, Russia's too uses its political leverage to achieve some goals or another, like many country, but not always. I do appreciate your input though.

We could discuss, that your country is highly dependent on the US and the UK, on what weapon systems they allow you, under what terms and so on

We are a self-defensive state, every rational-acting state knows that. Nothing of terms of conditions as long as we maintain our self-defensive mechanism, unlike many countries in the ME. We procure arms from France, Italy, Spain, and elsewhere. Our Saudi-Franco Naval projects are as heavy as our cooperation with the United Kingdom.

or as you pointed out, that your navy wants and own airing and be independent from the air force and not for any operational needs

Hallelujah

But actually, it is for both reasons. The Navy wants to be independent on one hand, and there are specific needs for the task they are going to carry on the other particular on the Gulf.

But when you take to account that your country is even trying to convince other Gulf countries (Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar) to procure the EF and not the Rafale, it should be clear what the navy might get.

Would you mind providing us with a materialistic, solid evidence on the claim you made regarding KSA trying to persuade the GCC to buy the EFT instead of the DR?

Russia is dependent on sales and funds from India or China, now more than ever before with the Ukraine crisis, so don't bet on bad media reports. We could discuss, that your country is highly dependent on the US and the UK, on what weapon systems they allow you, under what terms and so on, but that won't lead nowhere except of derailing the thread further.
The fact is, Rafale has next to no chance to be selected in your country, other than for political reasons, or as you pointed out, that your navy wants and own airwing and be independent from the air force and not for any operational needs. But when you take to account that your country is even trying to convince other Gulf countries (Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar) to procure the EF and not the Rafale, it should be clear what the navy might get.

Trust me I know that.
I was talking about russians

Point taken.

Russia moves is cheap though ...

 

[BATMAN]

I just want to see the DR in the hands of the IAF, then the UAE will fallow suit

UAE should buy Gripen-NG

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

UAE should buy Gripen-NG

The UAE walked off the negotiation as the Dassault wanted them to finance the R&D.

The Gripen is good, but I hardly think they would go for it.

 

[BATMAN]

The Gripen is good, but I hardly think they would go for it.

Gripen is dam good, it has emerged as top of contender in Swiss evaluations.
French are anyway tricky people, it is much difficult to deal with them, after the purchase.

 

[he-man]

Gripen is dam good, it has emerged as top of contender in Swiss evaluations.
French are anyway tricky people, it is much difficult to deal with them, after the purchase.

Bhai tere bas ki nai hai technical discussion.

Tumse na hoga batman

 

[BATMAN]

Bhai tere bas ki nai hai technical discussion.

Tumse na hoga batman

I'm not as bad as DRDO

 

[he-man]

I'm not as bad as DRDO

Chal dil rakh lete hai tera

 

[MilSpec]

Unprecedented in moder history? That's too big to take. We ordered 151 F-15SA after 2 consecutive years of negotiations.

The reason why India didn't sign till now is due to the fact that it wants a bigger discount, and more ToT.

By the time the first IAF DR arrival, China will be introducing two - three more aircrafts.

the reality is we don't dig money out of the ground, thus have to contemplate all options before closing the deal, KSA on the other hand has oil to fund all it's gizmos.