Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions
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I think its mere presumption that French help in engine or missiles technology. Either MICA or Kaveri or to LCA project. The deal is for MMRCA only. However if its provide such faciljty might beLCA shall get better Advantage and Tech.
praveen007
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India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil - The Times of India
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India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil
NEW DELHI: In an unusual bilateral tie-up, India has agreed to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out an open tender evaluation to select a fighter for the over $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. Brazil is presently in the process of selecting a fighter for its air force.
India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim.
"Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours," Amorim told TOI.
Amorim met Antony and national security advisor Shiv Shankar Menon on Monday in New Delhi, and the two sides held bilateral defence consultations at various levels.
Amorim said Brazil was eager to learn from India's process of finalizing Rafale, the French fighter, for the over $10 billion MMRCA contract. It is one of the world's biggest defence tenders right now.
Brazil is looking to buy 36 new fighters for its air force. The tender had left it open to the possibility of the number of fighters going up to 120. The tender could run into several billion dollars, though the initial estimate was just $2.2 billion. Brazil has already made a pre-selection of three fighters - Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG and one will finally be selected.
"Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality," Amorim said. "Sharing of experience doesn't mean we follow your decision," he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia.
Brazil is also providing India an exclusively developed catalogue of NATO military equipment, in which India was interested, he said.
.
.
India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil
NEW DELHI: In an unusual bilateral tie-up, India has agreed to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out an open tender evaluation to select a fighter for the over $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. Brazil is presently in the process of selecting a fighter for its air force.
India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim.
"Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours," Amorim told TOI.
Amorim met Antony and national security advisor Shiv Shankar Menon on Monday in New Delhi, and the two sides held bilateral defence consultations at various levels.
Amorim said Brazil was eager to learn from India's process of finalizing Rafale, the French fighter, for the over $10 billion MMRCA contract. It is one of the world's biggest defence tenders right now.
Brazil is looking to buy 36 new fighters for its air force. The tender had left it open to the possibility of the number of fighters going up to 120. The tender could run into several billion dollars, though the initial estimate was just $2.2 billion. Brazil has already made a pre-selection of three fighters - Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG and one will finally be selected.
"Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality," Amorim said. "Sharing of experience doesn't mean we follow your decision," he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia.
Brazil is also providing India an exclusively developed catalogue of NATO military equipment, in which India was interested, he said.
praveen007
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A dogfight over Delhi | idrw.org
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.
A dogfight over Delhi
Published February 8, 2012
SOURCE:-FINANCIAL TIMES
.
.
Sir Stephen Dalton, the UK’s chief of air staff,
hurtled down the runway behind the controls of
a Russian-designed Sukhoi-30 at the Kalaikunda
air base in West Bengal. The deafening roar of the
engines of the mainstay of the Indian air force
swept over a small band of observers gathered
just over a year ago in the rising tropical heat.
Minutes later, a Royal Air Force Eurofighter
Typhoon built by a British, German, Italian and
Spanish consortium took to the skies as part of a
staged dogfight with India’s French Mirages and
Russian aircraft, designed to impress officials
seeking to modernise an ageing fleet. Its near-
vertical take-off was met with awed admiration.
Within the sights of Sir Stephen, a veteran of the
first Gulf war – as well as his political masters and
hundreds of aerospace executives – was one of
the world’s most sought-after jet fighter
contracts. London, Paris and Washington were all
vying to re-equip the world’s largest democracy
with 126 fighters – about one-10th of the force –
seeing it as a chance to put a seal on a defining
bilateral relationship of the 21st century.
Worth up to $20bn, the deal to supply India –
with its fast-growing economy and geopolitical
status, and concern about the threat from
Pakistan to the north and China to the east –
offered a European defence establishment
suffering shrinking military budgets back home
the chance to reshape the industry landscape.
But the mock battle was the closest the Typhoon
came to the target. New Delhi last week chose
Dassault’s Rafale over the Eurofighter at the end of
an eight-year competition. The significance of the
agreement is being compared to that of the UK’s
record al-Yamama deal with Saudi Arabia, signed
in the 1980s. Optimists say it could be signed
within eight months, joining a $9.3bn agreement
for France to supply India with two nuclear plants
and another to build it a modern conventional
submarine fleet worth $4bn.
“This is a major win for France, and a major loss
for the UK … French political backing has been
essential in strengthening the French bid and the
Rafale win is therefore also a major victory for
President Nicolas Sarkozy,” says Endre Lunde, an
aerospace and defence consultant at IHS Jane’s, a
defence consultancy.
Rafale’s selection is a bitter disappointment for all
four nations in the consortium, and highlights
Indian doubts about a pan-European partnership
at a time of financial and political strain on the
continent.
It has a particular sting for David Cameron. The
UK prime minister identified the Indian market as
one of the most important for Britain’s exporters
– but this opening gambit to his premiership has
shown scant return even though accompanied
by £1bn of aid in the next four years.
The decision also deals a blow to Mr Cameron’s
attempt to style himself a champion of trade
missions led by the private sector – unlike
France’s dirigiste approach – and of Britain’s
dwindling manufacturing base.
Eurofighter’s backers thought it the lead
contender, bringing more advanced technology
and strategic clout than the Rafale, which had not
been sold outside France. Their confidence soared
after US rivals – Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet
and Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Super Viper – were
knocked out of the highly secretive medium
multi-role combat aircraft contest last year.
In London and Berlin, contractors salivated at the
idea of harnessing via industrial partnership a
greater share of India’s $36bn annual defence
budget – one of the world’s largest, and probably
a third of China’s. A big European purchase
would shift India away from reliance on Russia
and show the US was not the only alternative as
Delhi sought to rearm itself in light of mounting
concerns about a more assertive Beijing.
The executives of the consortium partners were
convinced Eurofighter offered a superior so-called
“4th generation” aircraft suited to aerial combat
and able to strike targets on the ground. They
were also confident they had priced it
competitively, in spite of some analysts’ claims
that the Rafale was up to 10 per cent cheaper.
.
. . . . , . . , for full article please go to above link
++
.
.
A dogfight over Delhi
Published February 8, 2012
SOURCE:-FINANCIAL TIMES
.
.
Sir Stephen Dalton, the UK’s chief of air staff,
hurtled down the runway behind the controls of
a Russian-designed Sukhoi-30 at the Kalaikunda
air base in West Bengal. The deafening roar of the
engines of the mainstay of the Indian air force
swept over a small band of observers gathered
just over a year ago in the rising tropical heat.
Minutes later, a Royal Air Force Eurofighter
Typhoon built by a British, German, Italian and
Spanish consortium took to the skies as part of a
staged dogfight with India’s French Mirages and
Russian aircraft, designed to impress officials
seeking to modernise an ageing fleet. Its near-
vertical take-off was met with awed admiration.
Within the sights of Sir Stephen, a veteran of the
first Gulf war – as well as his political masters and
hundreds of aerospace executives – was one of
the world’s most sought-after jet fighter
contracts. London, Paris and Washington were all
vying to re-equip the world’s largest democracy
with 126 fighters – about one-10th of the force –
seeing it as a chance to put a seal on a defining
bilateral relationship of the 21st century.
Worth up to $20bn, the deal to supply India –
with its fast-growing economy and geopolitical
status, and concern about the threat from
Pakistan to the north and China to the east –
offered a European defence establishment
suffering shrinking military budgets back home
the chance to reshape the industry landscape.
But the mock battle was the closest the Typhoon
came to the target. New Delhi last week chose
Dassault’s Rafale over the Eurofighter at the end of
an eight-year competition. The significance of the
agreement is being compared to that of the UK’s
record al-Yamama deal with Saudi Arabia, signed
in the 1980s. Optimists say it could be signed
within eight months, joining a $9.3bn agreement
for France to supply India with two nuclear plants
and another to build it a modern conventional
submarine fleet worth $4bn.
“This is a major win for France, and a major loss
for the UK … French political backing has been
essential in strengthening the French bid and the
Rafale win is therefore also a major victory for
President Nicolas Sarkozy,” says Endre Lunde, an
aerospace and defence consultant at IHS Jane’s, a
defence consultancy.
Rafale’s selection is a bitter disappointment for all
four nations in the consortium, and highlights
Indian doubts about a pan-European partnership
at a time of financial and political strain on the
continent.
It has a particular sting for David Cameron. The
UK prime minister identified the Indian market as
one of the most important for Britain’s exporters
– but this opening gambit to his premiership has
shown scant return even though accompanied
by £1bn of aid in the next four years.
The decision also deals a blow to Mr Cameron’s
attempt to style himself a champion of trade
missions led by the private sector – unlike
France’s dirigiste approach – and of Britain’s
dwindling manufacturing base.
Eurofighter’s backers thought it the lead
contender, bringing more advanced technology
and strategic clout than the Rafale, which had not
been sold outside France. Their confidence soared
after US rivals – Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet
and Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Super Viper – were
knocked out of the highly secretive medium
multi-role combat aircraft contest last year.
In London and Berlin, contractors salivated at the
idea of harnessing via industrial partnership a
greater share of India’s $36bn annual defence
budget – one of the world’s largest, and probably
a third of China’s. A big European purchase
would shift India away from reliance on Russia
and show the US was not the only alternative as
Delhi sought to rearm itself in light of mounting
concerns about a more assertive Beijing.
The executives of the consortium partners were
convinced Eurofighter offered a superior so-called
“4th generation” aircraft suited to aerial combat
and able to strike targets on the ground. They
were also confident they had priced it
competitively, in spite of some analysts’ claims
that the Rafale was up to 10 per cent cheaper.
.
. . . . , . . , for full article please go to above link
Nishan_101
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Really I have been thinking about the Rafael N the dual seat version of Rafeal M as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?
---------- Post added at 09:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------
Hoping that the Brazilian will going to select Su-35s in the end, although there are some sounds of Rafael out there.
---------- Post added at 09:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------
Hoping that the Brazilian will going to select Su-35s in the end, although there are some sounds of Rafael out there.
Alphacharlie
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with new engine, I heard IAF is negotiatng for something above F4 with F5 version in keeping mind
A Naval Embargo by US Navy for over 3 months could lead to issues with Oil Supply and Destroying of Trade However, in Case of China and Pakistan seeing our Coast line of 7000+ sq km this will be a "Farse"
By the way please be informed when you buy a weapon system, we also buy support equipment and spares. Look at the C 130J or ANTPQ systems the spares and support equipment has been bought in sufficent quantitys for entire Life cycle.
rockstarIN
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Is this the reason BraZil defence minister is in India?, a negotiating point with French in the deal though.
Black Widow
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depends on there need, If they need Air superiority Heavy fighter they will definitely select Su35BM. Su 35 belongs to Heavy class like F15s, F22, PAK-FA and J20.
While AFAIK Brasil is looking for medium class fighter.. Hope you understand the difference...
@topic: If Brasil too order Rafael, French will be very happy.
rockstarIN
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1. French naval Rafales were once ‘nailed to the ground’ after a virus infection.
2. Eurofighter came across as cheaper than Gripen In Austria on the basis of its payment plan.
3. Some believed that the selection of the GE414 engine for LCA over Eurojet meant Gripen, F/A-18 had an edge in the MMRCA.
4. Contrary to popular belief, the MMRCA tender process was not completely spotless.
5. Boeing offered more power for the F/A-18 SuperHornet it offered for the contest.
6. The previous IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik, apprehended graft complaints by the losers to the Chief Vigilance Commissioner.
7. The Eurofighter is the only aircraft of the MMRCA-6 that has never given a back-seat ride to any Indian.
8. Only the MiG-35 has never been in a combat operation, after Libya 2011.
9. How long to sign on the Rafale? IAF Mirage-2000 upgrade took 5 years to bargain to USD 2.4 B & USD 1.23 B for MICA missiles.
10. Normally, the Ministry of Defense sends loser the letter and calls winner in for a chat. In the case of the MMRCA, it was the reverse.
11. The F-16 aircraft has a really stiff joystick on the left side of the seat.
12. All you TopGun fans, that fighter was the F-14. Tomcat pilots initially hated the idea of converting to Hornets.
13. The F-16 is flown by 24 other countries. 25, now, with the Iraqi order.
14. Even after selection of Rafale, all 5 other aircraft cos wait with curiosity. Yes they do. Context.
15. The math for comparing the bids of Rafale & Eurofighter was completed by the 1st week of Dec 2011.
16. The contest is governed by 2006 rules, though rules were last updated in Jan 2011 | StratPost
17. Indian security minsters group can disregard the lowest bid and award the contract for strategic reasons.
18. Rafale won only because Eurofighter was the only other aircraft shortlisted.
19. Gripen replaced MiG-21 in the Czech Republic and Eurofighter replaced MiG-29 in Germany (brought about to replace the F-4).
20. In theory, this is how Gripen would operate off public roads.
21. Gripen only aircraft built by UN Security Council non-member, hence claimed to be free of political considerations.
22. Proof of concept: F/A-18 can operate off public roads too.
23. Only F/A-18 SuperHornet & F-16IN of the six aircraft satisfy the key IAF requirement of an operational AESA radar.
24. The F-16IN had the single most powerful engine of all 6 aircraft in the competition.
25. F/A-18 Super Hornet was accused of being underpowered, inspite of having offered a more powerful engine.
26. Rafale pissed off the UAE last year when a newspaper owned by Dassault said Israel provided it security assistance.
27. Rafale lost to F-16 in Morocco and Sarkozy said ‘the better aircraft won’ (see Wikileaks).
28. India will be the first and largest export customer for the Rafale if the contract is signed.
29. Rafale was once thrown out of the contest.
30. At the time of being kicked out, the excuse given was Rafale had low thrust to weight ratio .
31. Eurofighter’s left wing built in Italy, right in Spain & fuselage divided between UK & Germany.
32. Four of the six aircraft also made offers to Indian Navy, even though only 2 of them were carrier capable. F-35 JSF also pitched.
33. Eurofighter and Gripen offered Indian Navy a carrier-borne naval concept. F/A-18 SuperHornet & Rafale were other two.
34. The 4 aircraft ejected from the contest have only recently begun having their bid documentation returned to them.
35. IAF considered a total of 643 parameters to test the six aircraft in field evaluation trials.
36. Four of the six aircraft were ejected from the contest exactly the day before their commercial bids were to expire.
37. The contest saw lost files & attempted bribery at the Bangalore Air Show, AeroIndia.
38. The last US ambassador to India resigned the day after both the two US aircraft were ejected.
39. The F-35 JSF is waiting in the wings it it doesn’t work out. Kinda: US offers India the JSF.
40. Rules require MMRCA winner to plow back 50% of the order value into Indian industry.
41. The cost of the Rafale and Eurofighter was evaluated from the exchange rate at the Parliament Street branch of the State Bank of India in New Delhi.
42. Dassault stock rose 22% when the Rafale was announced L1, but could practically benefit only stockholders with 3.13% share.
43. EADS, one of the parent companies of the Eurofighter, owns 46% of Dassault, the manufacturer of the Rafale.
44. This contest tested all six aircraft by requiring them to land and take off from the highest
2. Eurofighter came across as cheaper than Gripen In Austria on the basis of its payment plan.
3. Some believed that the selection of the GE414 engine for LCA over Eurojet meant Gripen, F/A-18 had an edge in the MMRCA.
4. Contrary to popular belief, the MMRCA tender process was not completely spotless.
5. Boeing offered more power for the F/A-18 SuperHornet it offered for the contest.
6. The previous IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik, apprehended graft complaints by the losers to the Chief Vigilance Commissioner.
7. The Eurofighter is the only aircraft of the MMRCA-6 that has never given a back-seat ride to any Indian.
8. Only the MiG-35 has never been in a combat operation, after Libya 2011.
9. How long to sign on the Rafale? IAF Mirage-2000 upgrade took 5 years to bargain to USD 2.4 B & USD 1.23 B for MICA missiles.
10. Normally, the Ministry of Defense sends loser the letter and calls winner in for a chat. In the case of the MMRCA, it was the reverse.
11. The F-16 aircraft has a really stiff joystick on the left side of the seat.
12. All you TopGun fans, that fighter was the F-14. Tomcat pilots initially hated the idea of converting to Hornets.
13. The F-16 is flown by 24 other countries. 25, now, with the Iraqi order.
14. Even after selection of Rafale, all 5 other aircraft cos wait with curiosity. Yes they do. Context.
15. The math for comparing the bids of Rafale & Eurofighter was completed by the 1st week of Dec 2011.
16. The contest is governed by 2006 rules, though rules were last updated in Jan 2011 | StratPost
17. Indian security minsters group can disregard the lowest bid and award the contract for strategic reasons.
18. Rafale won only because Eurofighter was the only other aircraft shortlisted.
19. Gripen replaced MiG-21 in the Czech Republic and Eurofighter replaced MiG-29 in Germany (brought about to replace the F-4).
20. In theory, this is how Gripen would operate off public roads.
21. Gripen only aircraft built by UN Security Council non-member, hence claimed to be free of political considerations.
22. Proof of concept: F/A-18 can operate off public roads too.
23. Only F/A-18 SuperHornet & F-16IN of the six aircraft satisfy the key IAF requirement of an operational AESA radar.
24. The F-16IN had the single most powerful engine of all 6 aircraft in the competition.
25. F/A-18 Super Hornet was accused of being underpowered, inspite of having offered a more powerful engine.
26. Rafale pissed off the UAE last year when a newspaper owned by Dassault said Israel provided it security assistance.
27. Rafale lost to F-16 in Morocco and Sarkozy said ‘the better aircraft won’ (see Wikileaks).
28. India will be the first and largest export customer for the Rafale if the contract is signed.
29. Rafale was once thrown out of the contest.
30. At the time of being kicked out, the excuse given was Rafale had low thrust to weight ratio .
31. Eurofighter’s left wing built in Italy, right in Spain & fuselage divided between UK & Germany.
32. Four of the six aircraft also made offers to Indian Navy, even though only 2 of them were carrier capable. F-35 JSF also pitched.
33. Eurofighter and Gripen offered Indian Navy a carrier-borne naval concept. F/A-18 SuperHornet & Rafale were other two.
34. The 4 aircraft ejected from the contest have only recently begun having their bid documentation returned to them.
35. IAF considered a total of 643 parameters to test the six aircraft in field evaluation trials.
36. Four of the six aircraft were ejected from the contest exactly the day before their commercial bids were to expire.
37. The contest saw lost files & attempted bribery at the Bangalore Air Show, AeroIndia.
38. The last US ambassador to India resigned the day after both the two US aircraft were ejected.
39. The F-35 JSF is waiting in the wings it it doesn’t work out. Kinda: US offers India the JSF.
40. Rules require MMRCA winner to plow back 50% of the order value into Indian industry.
41. The cost of the Rafale and Eurofighter was evaluated from the exchange rate at the Parliament Street branch of the State Bank of India in New Delhi.
42. Dassault stock rose 22% when the Rafale was announced L1, but could practically benefit only stockholders with 3.13% share.
43. EADS, one of the parent companies of the Eurofighter, owns 46% of Dassault, the manufacturer of the Rafale.
44. This contest tested all six aircraft by requiring them to land and take off from the highest
Nishan_101
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Really I have been thinking about the Rafael N the dual seat version of Rafeal M as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?
sancho
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The M88-3 was never speculated for IAF, only for the UAE but even they understood that more thrust is not needed at the moment. More interesting would be a possible integration of Kaveri/Snecma engine, which would be based on the M88-3. Why fund and integrate M88-3, if Kaveri/Snecma might be possible too?
Wrt customisation, Indian forces mainly customised aircrafts in fields where changes were needed. The P8I, C130s for example couldn't be bought with certain communication or navigation techs, due to US restrictions, therefor we had to integrate Indian, Israeli or European counterparts. The Russian fighters offered less capable avionics, that's why they were customised...
For Rafale, we might add some parts that the French didn't funded yet like HMS, or IRST in the F3+, maybe even the Litening pod for more commonality, but it won't get major parts from Israel or India.
Su 35 was rejected in Brazil, only Rafale, F18SH and Gripen E/F were shortlisted and the Rafale is the prefered fighter, just too costly at the moment.
However, news from Switzerland said that Dassault was able to offer a reduced bid because of the Indian deal and lowered production costs. That is very interesting for Brazil, UAE or other possible export countries too!
rockstarIN
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Economies of scale...cool, in fact we too should benefit from it.
sancho
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Of course and it will be interesting to see what parts will be produced in India then, but much will depend on the capability to Indian industry to absorb the ToT and quickly start production.
praveen007
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It was one of the reason.
The main focus was on defence coopration between Brazile and India on various aspect, such as-
awacs, missile, aviation and other defence industries.
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