Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Shaurya]

a naval embargo and the country turning into a war zone would instantly take out the PAK-FA and Rafale out of action, as the only plane that could be maintained on India supplied parts would then be the MKI.

Whoever told you that, please slap him from my side, maybe, you didn't read correctly that HAL will manufacture these crafts, it WON'T be imported from France or Russia, I used to think you people have a IQ of 105 , then why ask such silly questions?

 

[sancho]

So thats Recon, SEAD, Deep Strike, Anti Ship role - all done very well by a 30 year old fighter - and trust me it could even take on air superiority missions if the britishers weren't too focused on showing off the typhoon. The Libyan air force used decades old equipment - mirage f1 and su 22 - shooting down a couple of those planes can hardly be a proof of air superiority.

You are putting too much emphasis on the age, without taking into account, that the Tornado was able to do so much (but still less then Rafale), because it was upgraded and is now a very capable fighter. By your logic, our Mirage 2000s and Mig 29s that also are around 25 years old, are not capable too, which is a big mistake mate! Even our Mig 21 Bisons can take out a modern fighter today with it's BVR capability, although compared 1 on 1, tech by tech it is clearly inferior.
The Tornado were the prime fighter of the RAF in Libya and the EF only assisted them, while Rafale clearly showed the best performance in all roles and that's why it's omni role proven now. Especially it's penetration capablilities thanks to SPECTRA and it's low detectability, as well as the SEAD capability impressed even journalists that normally prefered EF.

Here's a report on libyan air defence before the campaign began - and this is the conclusion

I was talking about an official statement of the US denfence ministry, after the B2 and cruise missile strikes. Again, the fact that neither their F15s, nor even the F18 Growlers were used before these strikes says enough about how the US assessed the risks.

Thats exactly what I said - The point is debatable - We cant conclude that the rafale is the stealthier than its competitors because the EFT was also called stealthy by some so was the super hornet - the russians claimed they had reduced the RCS of the mig 35 5 times as compared to the mig 29. So no conclusions can be made as to this.

Exactly, we can't say it for sure and that's why I don't debate on figures, but we can take certain things into account! EF don't has these special RAM treatment, so don't has the same benefit in reduction of the RCS. EFs engine has a higher IR signature and is easier to detect in this regard. It also has active puls doppler MAWS, which makes it more detectable in the EM fields than Rafale with IR MAWS. EF has passive targeting capability only via IRST, which makes it dependable to active radar in BVR and in the same field it can't offer a MICA IR, that allows silent interceptions from long ranges. All this are reasons why Rafale is less detectable than EF, because that was one of the development aims of the Rafale, beeing hard to detect and offer alternative detection and targeting capabilities, beside the radar.

My point was that this factor probably did not effect the decision. I hardly think any other european nation is going to put an arms embargo over such a lucrative market any time in the future, especially when their own economies are not doing so well( to put it mildly)

It don't have to be embargos, but it can be simpler things. During Kargil war we changed certain things on the Mirage fighters, neither Dassault, nor France ever complained about it. On the other side, when we sold the old Islander aircrafts to Myanmar, what was the reaction?

Britain warns India against selling aircraft to Myanmar

NEW DELHI: British High Commissioner Michael Arthur on Monday said India's sale of aircraft to Myanmar could impact its Navy's plan to replace fighters on the aircraft carrier INS Viraat and supply of spares for helicopters. ...

The Hindu : National : Britain warns India against selling aircraft to Myanmar


And now we are again not doing what they or the US wants again, by not imposing an oil embargos on Iran, so is it possible that we get spare issues for British or US aircrafts again? Sure it is, we simply can't rule it out and since it effects the security of our country, we shouldn't test it.

Transfer of technology was a clause in the agreement - The question was extent and while it is true that the US might not have given us the ToT of AESA radar all the rest were willing - so this was not an offer from france alone and hence not a factor in it getting chosen OVER another plane offering the same deal

Yes, ToT was part of the agreement, but not "full" ToT and not of "critical" parts, everybody new what we wanted and this competition gave us the chance to get a hand on these high techs. Rafale, EF and the Mig were the only fighters that could be offered with much or even full ToT of the radar, since they develop their radars on their own unlike Gripen and from these 3 only Rafale has an AESA developed yet. The Zhuk AE is still under development, the Captor E is not even available as a prototype or fully funded. So the French indeed had some advantages here!

As I said many times, Rafale for India means the best package of advantages, because it offers advantages in all areas and that's most likely why it was selected. It simply was the obvious choice for us, while in other countries it might not.

 

[sancho]

UAE may or may not.. Typhoon has a pretty good chance there..

Not really, the EF is only mentioned because the UAE tries to put pressure on Dassault to lower the costs, that's all. Even I say the EF would be the better fighter for the UAE, since they would love to fund upgrades and it offers exactly what the UAE needs, a twin engine air superiority fighter above the single engine F16 B60 for strikes, that is also able to use their Black Shaheen missiles. The key problem is, that the UAE has close political relations to France and wouldn't risk that, secondly that they don't really replace older fighters. France has asked them to buy Rafale, they asked to rebuy the Mirage instead although some of them are brand new! The EF partners can't buy them back and that's why they can go only for Rafale, in case they want new fighters now. Either they buy Rafale, or they stick with Mirage 2000-9!

The "china card" has been a stupid ruse from the start to justify the MMRCA where India's neighbors are concerned.
Its been for Pakistan mainly..

Surprising statement from you!

 

[danger007]

hmmm, glad to see no rafale vs jf-17 threads

 

[Shaurya]

@Oscar please say it's a joke, MKI's are more than enough for you, infact it's the china card that's more important and justifies, pakistan is no longer a threat (and I suspect it wasn't a threat for a long long time) the only problem are the non state actors or guests that pakistan sends regularly which is a bit of a headache otherwise, I doubt pakistan can even afford a 15 day showdown

 

[SQ8]

You can't keep saying such things, Pakistan isn't the centre of the universe and I think India has far moved on from seeing Pakistan as the sole threat to her.

Yet the MMRCA is being focused on Pakistan.
What incentive do you offer that Pakistan is still not the center of India's focus?
All India needs to take out Pakistan are the MKI's,Mig-29's and M2K's.. the PAF will fall in two weeks max.
Then why the focus of the MMRCA on the west?

 

[Indus Falcon]

No matter how good relations are nations don't just let other nations thoroughly evaluate their warplanes. Not to mention UAE aren't stupid, they are continuously improving relations with India and would be unlikely to favour Pakistan over India in this circumstance. This is a myth Pakistani members like to assert.

I guess it's a myth that Pakistani military personnel, as well as ordinary Pakistanis serve in the GCC forces?

Btw, there is a member on this forum who used to fly Apaches, and served in Bosnia as well. So now you need to decide how stupid you are and how good your relations are with them!!

 

[Bl[i]tZ]

General Jean-Paul Paloméros, France 49th Chief of Staff of the French Air Force

EXCLUSIVE. By the time New Delhi has selected the Rafale, General Jean-Paul Palomeros, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, told France-Soir in which the French intervention in Libya has demonstrated the qualities the unit to potential buyers.


France-Soir Is Operation Harmattan, Libya - during which the Rafale was committed - played a decisive role in this first export success?

General Jean-Paul Palomeros It is clear that the success of the Air Force and the Rafale during Harmattan were studied by every army in the world. My foreign counterparts want to talk with me. They wonder why we have been able to send the Rafale as quickly perform all types of missions. This operation was a demonstration of the capabilities of versatility of the device.

F.-S. Can you elaborate on these missions?

J. Gal-PP had to both impose a flight ban over Libya, involving ground forces against Gaddafi who were at the gates of Benghazi and information on its military enemy. March 19, 2011, the first patrol, these three goals were achieved. Apart from the imposition of the no flight zone, we have learned the precision weaponry and fed our data for the following assignments. Thanks to its detection systems and protective ground / air, the Rafale was able to intervene without destroying all previously Libyan antiaircraft systems, including missile ramps for which we were the most worrying threat.

F.-S. You have participated directly in negotiations to sell the Rafale with the Indian authorities. What was your role alongside engineers, commercial and political and French?

J. Gal-PP I play my role as Chief of Staff. The partnership with the Indian military is old. For years, we do exercises with the Indian Air Force (IAF) Mirage 2000 that uses a camera valued throughout its ranks. My role is that this relationship is maintained at the highest level, arguing the merits of our facilities and those of the training of our pilots.

F.-S. And for the Rafale, specifically?

J. Gal-PP Show what qualities of the operational device, its benefits in terms of availability and maintenance. The availability of the fleet is the responsibility of the Chief of Staff. It was 95% during Operation Harmattan. In this field, France has set a high bar. To maintain a permanent Rafale, we need seven or eight mechanics. For some of our competitors, this is almost double. The cost of aircraft maintenance is thereby reduced. It was one of the primary criteria in the design of the aircraft.

F.-S. What is this sale going to change for the Air Force?

Gal J.-PP The big interest for us is to work with the armed forces of friendly countries which have the same weapons systems than ours. The Indian Air Force will bring us an original feedback that will allow us to develop the capabilities of the device. This is what happened with the crews of Qatari Mirages that participated with us in operations in Libya. Finally, increasing the series, it will reduce production costs and maintenance. Just yesterday, we were told that the Rafale was very expensive. It just proved today that he is probably the best aircraft in the world and, in the end, it is not expensive.

Général Palomeros : "Le Rafale est le meilleur avion du monde" | France Soir

 

[jha]

Someone in BRF is saying that 65-70 Gripens with Full TOT are being procured in addition to these 126 Rafales...

 

[KRAIT]

Someone in BRF is saying that 65-70 Gripens with Full TOT are being procured in addition to these 126 Rafales...

Credible link if you have will be appreciated....
BTW my view is that india won't go for Gripens.

 

[KRAIT]

Yet the MMRCA is being focused on Pakistan.
What incentive do you offer that Pakistan is still not the center of India's focus?
All India needs to take out Pakistan are the MKI's,Mig-29's and M2K's.. the PAF will fall in two weeks max.
Then why the focus of the MMRCA on the west?

You yourself answered the question. If PAF will fall in two weeks max, why would we need deep strike excellent A2G fighter with advanced avionics and weapons...may be for a neighbor like China which has superior aircraft and larger airforce, rail and road network to border areas.

 

[Shaurya]

I guess it's a myth that Pakistani military personnel, as well as ordinary Pakistanis serve in the GCC forces?

Btw, there is a member on this forum who used to fly Apaches, and served in Bosnia as well. So now you need to decide how stupid you are and how good your relations are with them!!

Funniest thing eva so you mean just because gorkhas (I love them) serve in the Indian army, we would prefer nepal even if they are not economically powerful?? lol, we all can see who is the stupid here...

 

[Nishan_101]

China has nothing like the P-8 sub hunter we can make mincemeat of their noisy Han class subs

I have been hearing that INAF will going to order even more P-8Is other than the 8 order and they have a total requirement of 30 of such machines? What do you say. I have heard the same thing with C-130Js that IAF will going to have 30+ C-130Js(or other improved models) till 2025?

 

[Shaurya]

I have been hearing that INAF will going to order even more P-8Is other than the 8 order and they have a total requirement of 30 of such machines? What do you say. I have heard the same thing with C-130Js that IAF will going to have 30+ C-130Js(or other improved models) till 2025?

Maybe, maybe not, also, a joint development is underway between India-Russia to develop a transport aircraft (similar to C-130s) so it's better to wait and watch...

 

[Nishan_101]

Sorry
Really I have been thinking about the Rafael N the dual seat version of Rafeal M as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?