Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[born]

Interesting find.

Grande Strategy

 

[sancho]

Rumors

So as expected, nothing happend yesterday!

http://twitter.com/#!/livefist/status/157544277453438976

 

[sancho]

will there be any announcement today?

Twitter

 

[prabhakar]

The question is what is more important for GoI/MoD, the requirements of our forces or the requirements of the industry, because that might be the important factors![/QUOTE]

How can you say that we are compromising when both the planes have been selected by IAF ?

 

[Hello_10]

Advantages Rafale (for India):

- ready
- proven
- easier to induct
- at least 5% cheaper per unit
- cheaper to operate
- technologically more advanced
- high upgrade level and good future potential
- variety of available weapons
- 1 fighter for IAFs and INs needs
- fits perfectly in size and capability to LCA and MKI
- most reliable by long term experience
- best for future co-developments


Advantages EF (for India):

- good A2A capabilities
- very good offset offer including production partnership
- Consortium and partners are highly desperate
- political and economical advantages of 4 countries


The question is what is more important for GoI/MoD, the requirements of our forces or the requirements of the industry, because that might be the important factors!

Please add that Rafale also has already infrastructure of Mirage2000 in India which makes is known platform to IAF. Also, Indian pilots have confirmed that they were always impressed with performance of Rafale w.r.t. SU30MKIs during air shows/ dog fights.
Also, it was always found that EFT won contracts over Rafale mainly because of political reasons as it is made by four EU nations with backing of US also. Like in case of Saudi Arabia who had choice of either US’s aircraft or Eurofighter only which also has many US’s parts. Rafale never lost to EFT or F16s/ F15s because of its performance, but only because of political reasons. Rafale is definitely a better aircraft than EFT. Even with MMRCA, only the factor to impress four EU nations, being as a partner with them, makes EFT attractive as compare to Rafale.

Rafale is equally balanced with A2A and A2G operations, with having upper side on multi role operations which would be better than Mirage2000 mk2, as claimed by its manufacturers when they were closing production line of Mirage2000. So, if IAF has to go for either Rafale or EFT then they would go for Rafale only. It will always be easy to deal with one country which doesn’t have interference of US also. But IAF would try to negotiate with Dassault for becoming partner like how IAF is offered with EFT. Anyhow its looks like Rafale would die if they lose MMRCA contract so better they would accept IAF as a partner for Rafale. It will give IAF independence on future upgrades of Rafale and at the same it will help Rafale to win new customers with publicity of MMRCA, with opportunity to supply this aircraft for IAC-2 also.

 

[sancho]

Please add that Rafale also has already infrastructure of Mirage2000 in India which makes is known platform to IAF.

That's what I meant with easier to induct.

So, if IAF has to go for either Rafale or EFT then they would go for Rafale only.

Probably, but IAF will not decide about MMRCA and the competition is not just to provide a new fighter, but to add new techs and capabilities to Indian industry too, so MoD will have to look at all sides and then decide which offer (not which fighter) is the best and cheapest.

Recap:

MMRCA, Admiral Arun Prakash analysis of Indian military procurements

Monday, July 11, 2011

The Jaguar, inducted in mid-1980s, was a great improvement and could deliver a 4 ton payload to over 300 miles. Today’s combat aircraft carry 6-8 tons of lethal weaponry to ranges of over 400 miles and deliver them with pinpoint precision on the target. Such is the accuracy and lethality of “smart” weapons that a single modern fighter can achieve the same effect in one mission as 15-20 earlier generation aircraft using “dumb” weaponry. This was amply demonstrated by the Mirage-2000 on Kargil heights in 1999. The “multi-role” appellation represents the ability to switch rapidly between interceptor, strike and recce tasks.

The IAF had decided, in the early years of the last decade that the logical answer to its problems of obsolescence, attrition and declining strength was to induct additional numbers of the Mirage-2000. With a few upgrades, this excellent machine could become the future multi-role aircraft; bridging the gap between the heavy-weight Su-30 and the light-weight Tejas. It was the MoD’s rejection of this proposal that gave birth to the MMRCA project.

For the MMRCA offsets to be beneficial to India, they must be selectively chosen to fill known gaps in key technologies or provide high-end production-engineering skills lacking in our aerospace industry today


Having flown both the F/A-18 and the Rafale, I can say that while the former would certainly have met all the IAF requirements competently and economically, the breathtaking performance of the latter leaves one in no doubt that it is a “generation-next” machine. The Eurofighter Typhoon, by all accounts, is equally impressive

Rafale News: MMRCA, Admiral Arun Prakash analysis of Indian military procurements


Rafale is obviously the better fighter for IAF and IN, but the EF partners and consortium are very desperate and looking at how far they bend to offer such a prize, we can expect them to bend similarly at offsets too, which is a strong point for them anyway with BAE and EADS Germany & Spain.
When the French offers a good offset package next to the better fighter and lower costs they win, when the EF offer such a good offset offer to equal the higher costs and less capabilities of the fighter, they can win too.
Personally I think, all the rumors in the media could be placed as well and we are trying to do it like the Saudis did, only the other way around. They used Rafale to lower the price of EF and we might use EF to lower the prize of Rafale. We saw similar before, when rumors about Rafales rejection put pressure on Dassault and France to renegotiate their initial offer. Nothing of that was official, but neither are the rumors at the moment.

 

[sudhir007]

old news but relevant

A Stealthier Rafale?
Our colleagues at Air & Cosmos report that the French government is funding a demonstration of improved stealth technology for the Dassault Rafale fighter, with a focus on active cancellation techniques. The story itself is not online but is being discussed at the Key Military Forum.


blog post photo
Dassault

Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can't be detected.

It's quite as difficult as it sounds. Some reports have suggested that the so called SP-3 or ZSR-62 "radar jamming device" planned in the early days of the B-2 program was an active cancellation system. It did not work and was scrapped in 1987-88. In 2005, Northrop Grumman paid $62 million to settle a False Claims Act case involving the system.

This may not be the first French attempt to implement AC on the Rafale. At the Paris air show in 1997, I interviewed a senior engineer at what was then Dassault Electronique, about the Rafale's Spectra jamming system. He remarked that Spectra used "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO aircraft."

"You mean active cancellation?" I asked. The engineer suddenly looked like someone who deeply regretted what he had just said, and declined any further comment. (As Hobbes once put it after pouncing on an unsuspecting Calvin: "We tigers live for moments like that."*)

The fact that a new demonstrator is being contemplated suggests that the technology may not have been up to the job the first time round - but since AC depends on electronics and processing, that picture may have changed. MBDA and Thales, which absorbed Dassault Electronique and is now the prime contractor on Spectra, have since confirmed that they are working on active cancellation for missiles.

The whole Spectra program has been a major venture, including the construction of four new indoor test ranges, including the colossal Solange RCS range discussed in Ares in 2007. That facility will probably play a major role in the new demonstrator program.

 

[sudhir007]

 

[Jason bourne]

Livefist: Countdown To MMRCA?

 

[nomi007]

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

01/13/2012
Meinhaj Hussain, m.hussain@grandestrategy.com

Bismillah-arrahman-arraheem. GrandeStrategy sources suggest that the Eurofighter Typhoon may in fact be the winner of the long delayed Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. The MMRCA is India's largest single defense deal that seeks to purchase high-end combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The contract is estimated to be worth between 10-15 Billion USD for 126 or more combat aircraft. These aircraft will provide India with a credible boost in air combat capabilities significantly downgrading any advantage the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) may have clawed back over the last decade.

The contest has been essentially between the Eurofighter Typhoon built by a pan-European consortium which includes EADS, Alenia Aeronautica and BAE Systems, and the Rafale, its French equivalent built by Dassault. It is commonly believed that the Rafale has better air-to-ground, while the Typhoon enjoys superior air-to-air performance although both planes are closely matched. The competition was critical for Rafale because it has yet to secure an export order in the last 10 years. The loss of this competition to the Eurofighter consortium may possibly be fatal to the Rafale securing any major future international contracts.

The purchase will have a few significant ramifications to Pakistan, the premier air force of the Muslim world. Pakistan's JF-17 fighter is a capable multi-role aircraft but is not optimized for the kind of high-high (high altitude and high speed) BVR (Beyond Visual Range) combat that the future of air combat is increasingly leading towards and the kind of combat the Eurofighter Typhoon is purpose-built to perform. As a result this can provide a capability gap for PAF planners. This is likely to emphasize on more J-10s from China, an aircraft with superior air combat capabilities than the JF-17.

The Typhoon will also bring in the best platform for employing the MBDA Meteor, a new generation of BVR AAMs that can give an advantage to the IAF against both the PAF and the PLAAF (People's Liberation Army Air Force, or the Chinese air force). When combined with the high-high profile of the Typhoon, this can put lower kinetic energy fighters like the JF-17 at a disadvantage. The view of this author is to develop UCAVs customized for the Pakistani scenario and couple these with two-seater JF-17 Block II/III.

Another possible implication is that France may now be willing to trade weapons with Pakistan and some of the Rafale's technology may find itself to the JF-17. This is an unlikely possibility given the belligerence of Western powers presently towards Pakistan but the issue is not closed as France is known to have done such business in the past. The interest in such trade has multiple and important implications. Most importantly, France may be willing to sell weapons and avionics for an export oriented JF-17 where the customer is not Pakistan but a third country more amenable to the French. Countries like Egypt or Argentina for instance, may prefer a cheaper plane than the Rafale but want Western avionics and weapons. Pakistan may herself be interested in such parts as the excellent MMI (Man-Machine Interface), E/O (Electro/Optical) systems and EW (Electronic Warfare) systems, all of which are top grade subsystems of the Rafale.

A word of comfort is that the machines are highly expensive to buy and maintain and perhaps a degree more sophisticated than Indian engineers are used to handling. Coupled with a longer delivery timeline, Pakistan or China are unlikely to see these birds operational in significant number until at least 2016. Nevertheless, we have to hand it to the Indians that they have in all probability made the right choice.

Please note, the results of the MMRCA have not been officially announced, this article is based on unofficial channels and must be taken as speculative and not official. However, I have good grounds to believe it is true. - 01/13/2012

Grande Strategy

 

[SQ8]

Wow.. check the tone of jingoism in that article in an effort to play down such an important development.

 

[Abingdonboy]

^^ precisely- they are getting this platform but we shouldn't be bothered. Yeah right. Tbh this article is filled with sensationalism and straight out lies. "any advantages built up by the PAF over the past few years"?? This article somehow completely fails to mention the fleet of MKI which could easily manage the 50 odd F-16s of PAF not to mention the MIG-29UPG/M2K-9 which would also easily handle any ac in the PAF. Similarly saying Indian engineers won't be able to handle the EFT? They are doing such a job on the advanced MKI so EFT should be no problem. Btw this deal isn't the making of the IAF, it will only supplement the existing capability of the IAF.

And tbh I'd say the RSAF was by far the most advanced Muslim AF.

 

[tjpf]

my o my what an article

1.indian engineers not capable
2.any advantages built up by the PAF over the past few years!!!!!!!!!
3.Another possible implication is that France may now be willing to trade weapons with Pakistan and some of the Rafale's technology may find itself to the JF-17

wow

 

[SQ8]

my o my what an article

1.indian engineers not capable
2.any advantages built up by the PAF over the past few years!!!!!!!!!
3.Another possible implication is that France may now be willing to trade weapons with Pakistan and some of the Rafale's technology may find itself to the JF-17

wow

Not happening at all at any point in the future.