Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Skull and Bones]

^^^^@Sancho
That pretty much sums up the whole discussion.

 

[KEETARP]

Back again , just not getting enough time to keep discussion going . Anyways ..... my reply in red

So basically you don't know it exactly, especially not if any fighter could detect such signals, because that's what we are talking about. The advantages Rafale offers to complement MKI in BVR combats and passive detection features, alongside of beeing hard to detect itself, because it don't emit signals the opponent can detect gives Rafale an advantage that EF don't have.

Still dosen't change the fact -
You claimed Rafale is fully passive while simple laws of physics will explain it can't be ( to update your A2A missile seeker via data link you must emit) - exactly why F22 is also emitting .
Point is how low your emission's are - and whether LPI or not ??

A Bill Sweetman blog from Aviationweek - to get my point thru

F-22 and F-35 Suffer From Network Gaps | AVIATION WEEK


Just like Rafales SPECTRA EWS offers advantages, that EFs DASS don't have, but it seems you still did not understand the difference, although we talked about it several times before.
SPECTRA can detect radar signals of A2A and A2G targets with the RWR and identify them via ESM, EF can do the same, because it has similar systems (although not as capable). That means both detect a possible threat, identify it and gets a basic bearing to avoid it, this mainly adds to the situational awareness of both fighters and to the self defense capabilities, but now comes the difference of both systems!
SPECTRA also uses interferometer antennas to geolocate the radar and gather accurate target datas. SPECTRA makes use of all these sensors, not only for enhanced situational awareness and self defense by avoiding these threats. It also use them for offensive actions, by providing these datas to FSO, or directly to weapons and engage the threats. That's why Rafale can do SEAD with AASM and SPECTRA, or why Rafale can engage passively in BVR, with MICA IR and SPECTRA. Both unique capabilities that EF and several other MMRCA contenders simply don't offer yet, or even will not have at all!

Again
I explained before EW suite of other contenders are as good as Rafale esp F16 F18 , built for SEAD
I explained that before also , link for my that post
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-147.html#post996995

FALCON EDGE - BAE Systems Investor Brief - March 2002

(One of the most secretly held pieces of equipment in the new batch of block 60 F-16s seems to be the EW gear, aka Falcon Edge or IEWS (Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite).
According to the Norhrop Grumman's Defensive Systems Division (DSD) website, Falcon Edge is "based on a revolutionary concept that leverages the latest radio frequency (RF) and digital technologies(...). Falcon Edge is comprised of two major subsystems: a passive receiver and an active jammer. Both systems utilize common technology that allows higher levels of subsystem interoperability. Falcon Edge features high sensitivity, wide-band digital receivers, and digitally based countermeasures".
The advanced EW system is "entirely internal, as opposed to the external pods carried by USAF F-16. The system incorporates classified digital technology that warns pilots of enemy radars while simultaneously sending out countermeasure signals, and will automatically dispense chaff and/or flares to decoy enemy radar or missiles. A significant capability is that it also provides the location of the threat emitter, rather than simply showing the direction the radar is comming from, to allow the pilot to attack it".)

Point you are overlooking or not emphasizing - is SPECTRA's capability to use ESM to guide weapons is MICA+AASM specific . It is built around MICA IR version only .
While its almost guaranteed few years down the line top tier BVR missile of IAF Arsenal will be either METEOR , / AIM120 . Supplemented by ASTRA ver2
Even if Rafale is chosen meteor is sure.
So at BVR ranges - Rafale has to turn on its RBE2 radar and use active guided Meteor missile , until you want to give advantage to your adversary flying with a 60kms range MICA only . (Now with Aim120c and sd10 in active service ).
No matter how much your RCS in clean state is , once fully armed you wont hide from AWACS or modern AESA radars at BVR ranges.

 

[SpArK]

Old video.. the making

 

[kingdurgaking]

That's what I thought at first again, but when I checked for other reports, I realised that there are no reliable reports about it so far and they all are stating different points:



IAF orders probe against Wing Commander for taking bribe | TruthDive

So Dassault complaint about it and helped to catch him?




http://idrw.org/?p=954


In another forum someone said 20 000 Rs are not bribes, but just a tip, because that's only around 300 Euros. Three lacks ion the other side would be a totally different point, but why should a vendor pay so much just for a better position on the static display. Which leads me to the next strange point! Dassault came to Aero India only with 2 Rafales and both were used for the flight displays, while EF (a mock up) and Gripen had also versions at the static display showing possible weapon systems. So when it really was for a favourable position at the static display, how should Dassault be inolved?

Lets wait for some official statements on this issue and not these unreliable media reports.

Rafale is in serious trouble... If Dassault is part of the scandal then it will be put on hold until enquiry is over which will take more than a year...

 

[jha]

Rafale is in serious trouble... If Dassault is part of the scandal then it will be put on hold until enquiry is over which will take more than a year...

Infact RAFALE itself is trouble..I am all for F-16 now..

 

[notorious_eagle]

Infact RAFALE itself is trouble..I am all for F-16 now..

If you look at the requirements of the IAF right now, the F16 fulfils these requirements perfectly. F16 is a true multi role fighter aircraft with a record to prove its lethality for A2A and A2G roles. But given PAF's mastery of the F16, chances are that the IAF will likely go for either the Super Hornet or Rafale. I previously used to argue that the IAF would go for the Super Hornet, but reading the statements of some IAF officials its clear that they are not comfortable buying American technology because of their track record. I think the Indians will go for the Rafale, Sancho has posted some very valid arguments to support this premise.

 

[dbc]

Back again , just not getting enough time to keep discussion going . Anyways ..... my reply in red



Point you are overlooking or not emphasizing - is SPECTRA's capability to use ESM to guide weapons is MICA+AASM specific . It is built around MICA IR version only .
While its almost guaranteed few years down the line top tier BVR missile of IAF Arsenal will be either METEOR , / AIM120 . Supplemented by ASTRA ver2
Even if Rafale is chosen meteor is sure.
So at BVR ranges - Rafale has to turn on its RBE2 radar and use active guided Meteor missile , until you want to give advantage to your adversary flying with a 60kms range MICA only . (Now with Aim120c and sd10 in active service ).
No matter how much your RCS in clean state is , once fully armed you wont hide from AWACS or modern AESA radars at BVR ranges.

While we're talking about sensors the F/A-18's are currently being used in Afghanistan to detect IED(s) from the air.
I can PM you the details if interested.

An improvised explosive device (IED), also known as a roadside bomb, is a homemade bomb constructed and deployed in ways other than in conventional military action. It may be constructed of conventional military explosives, such as an artillery round, attached to a detonating mechanism.

 

[typhoon77]

While we're talking about sensors the F/A-18's are currently being used in Afghanistan to detect IED(s) from the air.

Didn't SAAB offer India a radar that can do that, to be used from helicopters for counter terrorism??

 

[luckyyy]

Infact RAFALE itself is trouble..I am all for F-16 now..

Rafale don't even fullfill the MMRCA tendor requirements..
1) low TWR <1
2) high maintanence and lifycycle cost
3) low radar range

but the point here to note is that F-16 , F-18 , Rafale and Typhoon all fall in the 100million basket , then why not buy the one that offering maximum taking the future insight....if IAF/MoD has to buy any of these four then my vote in this regard is for typhoon...otherwise Mig-35 offeres a cost effective solution at half the cost , gripen is in my view will not be selected taking LCA inview ..

 

[angeldemon_007]

While we're talking about sensors the F/A-18's are currently being used in Afghanistan to detect IED(s) from the air.

But is that offered to India ??

Didn't SAAB offer India a radar that can do that, to be used from helicopters for counter terrorism??

Yes...

Rafale is in serious trouble... If Dassault is part of the scandal then it will be put on hold until enquiry is over which will take more than a year...

I think this might be the beginning of troubles created by the losing parties which might cause delays in MMRCA as indicated by Air Chief. I hope its solved quickly because Rafale is my favorite and i won't doubt if its IAF favorite too.

 

[kingdurgaking]

I think this might be the beginning of troubles created by the losing parties which might cause delays in MMRCA as indicated by Air Chief. I hope its solved quickly because Rafale is my favorite and i won't doubt if its IAF favorite too.

Rafale may be your favourite or IAF too but it is too costly and what does it offer compared to NG? you are talking about range and payload? it has got all what Rafale has provided... it full fills IAF base requirement which is the most necessary thing.. secondly Rafale has got a very poor AESA radar.. while NG will get a good AESA radar compared to Rafale.. mainly most important of all it is cheap both in fly away and life cycle.. further it has got all good weapons which is utmost important.. weapons is important buddy then comes the fighter..

As far as Range is considered it can surely do IFR which is a good sign and range can be increased...
Coming to Payload most of the war time doctrine for a fighter is designated for one mission and i guess a payload of 6000 kg is more than enough for the mission.. never ever we will do carpet bombing like B2.. for that bombers are there.. so 2 BVR, 2 short range and 2 LGB's is more than enough for a mission....

In addition to this never ever MMRCA will be tasked for serious work.. it will be MKI while MMRCA just complements MKI by carrying payload because every IAF mission is always a formation

 

[angeldemon_007]

secondly Rafale has got a very poor AESA radar

while NG will get a good AESA radar compared to Rafale..

I am all for Gripen but it has parts from other countries like US which might cause problem later. I think this was the reason why India was insisting on agreement with the third parties also but contenders were not ready for that but later on some solution was found but nobody knows what that solution was.
Also i couldn't find this anywhere, please share some basic specs of these 2 aesa.

As far as Range is considered it can surely do IFR which is a good sign and range can be increased...

Look we already have Su30, if iaf select gripen then it will also do the job. I think comparing with the cost and tech transfer gripen is good. We can squeeze saab as much as we want. But only problem lies with the component which does not belongs to saab, can we get techs of those components ??/

In addition to this never ever MMRCA will be tasked for serious work..

MMRCA has very important task. Su30 is not good in dog fight and there we will need mmrca.

 

[MilSpec]

MMRCA has very important task. Su30 is not good in dog fight and there we will need mmrca.

Su30 is not good in dog fight??? Please Enlighten

 

[jha]

Su30 is not good in dog fight and there we will need mmrca

Are you sure..?? Su-30 MKI is the most agile and maneuverable Plane ever flown..

 

[MilSpec]

MMRCA has very important task. Su30 is not good in dog fight and there we will need mmrca.

IMO if you are talking dog fights... there is nothing that comes close to the MKI.... as for the continent is concerned nothing comes close to it even in BVR... maybe you had a typo

None of the MMRCA contenders can stand up to the upgraded MKI with AESA in both WVR and BVR engagements...