Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[angeldemon_007]

WTF? Rafale? In IAF? Aapka demaag kharab hai kya? No country really wants it, it is way to expensive, the AESA on that thing is not even fully matured, how can it boast of stealth like capabilities with that stupid mid-air refueling stick sticking out (i assume it will give more RCS).

FU...It was a personal opinion just like SH is yours. I don't think we can trust US that much. I value the level of technology transfer as an important thing in the agreement, you don't value this ans its your personnel opinion. Also it is you who is assuming while many famous aerospace magazines (not indian) are telling us about the RCS of Rafale. Also SH itself is not that cheap, yes agreed its cheaper than Rafale but this cheaper SH has only aesa on its side and that to without any sufficient tech transfer and without those new features.

Superhornet is the clear victor of MMRCA-

Its your personnel opinion, just like i had mine.

A. Most advanced AESA radar being offered to India thourgh MMRCA

I thought F16 had most advanced aesa. Even if we consider the range, i think Russia is offering the aesa with longest range. (Please correct me if i am wrong but with proper proof).

B. Has some stealthy capabilties like Internal weapons pod

Its not even tested on SH yet also its not coming in MMRCA contract. Its in International roadmap plan and we will have to pay for it. These new features are given to lure us by telling that we can offer you an upgrade offer in the future which LM cannot.
Also we don't know yet that how much will this international roadmap plan will cost. It might be possible that this new SH might cost us more than F35 while not even matching the F35 capabilities. Its just like F15 silent eagle, not same as F35 but yeah it is stealthy but cost more than F35. But the question then arises why not buy F35 then ?/

Also EF and Rafale has future plans although Rafale has not declared it in public but still they are doing research.

C.Great range, combat proven

Cannot be counted as pros as many of them has.

D. International roadmap plan being offered

Look it is a plus point that Boeing is offering us a well defined up-gradation plan in terms of technology but man this is called marketing. Boeing is making sure a continue business for it while we need something which is best right now, not which will be best 10 years later down the line. Boeing will need time to integrate all these new features and even if they do it on time, its not on offer in actual MMRCA contract, what i mean is boeing is not offering its new SH in MMRCA contract but instead it is offering an upgrade plan for future. Also who knows how much will this cost ?? May be more than F35, just like in the case of F15 silent eagle.

if possible we can port Kaveri also... what else you want?

Who said this ???/

Errr...the Air Chief himself said that Tejas will be as good as the Gripen going forward. I am sure you won't be knowing more than him isn't it. Instead of buying gripen NG which will be available in 2017 its better to scrap MMRCA and buy 300 LCA MKII.

Sorry but i never read any article indicating that AC said this. Please, can you post such article because i think he never said anything like this ??/
Also, have you seen that poster which showed the features of LCA mk2 ?? If not just go through LCA thread or LCA mk2 thread and you will find it. Then compare those features with that of Gripen NG and then tell me how can LCA mk2 match with Gripen NG. LCA mk2 don't even have an aesa while gripen can even take off from roads just like SH. ADA's work is commendable but lets face truth LCA mk2 is still not a match for Gripen.

Also as far as i know Gripen NG also flew during MMRCA tests and it was going through Swedish Air Force Clearance test during the MMRCA trials in 2010, so the news that it will be ready in 2017 is just a misinterpretation of the fact that Swedish AF will induct them in 2017 but if we select it for our MMRCA, we will get the deliveries just like any other fighter in the contract because as far as i know there is no news about delays in induction if Gripen is selected just like Mig35 and EF (Correct me if i am wrong).

How many times do we need discuss that gripen is one of the most risky planes. It has US engine. If we buy US plane we have some bargaining chip with them. We buy Gripen we won't even have that.

So is selecting a US fighter jet and so is going for Typhoon or Rafale or Mig 35. Look buddy, purchasing a military transport aircraft from US and stripping of its some key features infront of our eyes is a different thing but still it should have open your eyes. Also here we are talking about fighter jet and not a military transport aircraft. Stripping it of some key features later on will definitely effect the capabilities of fighter jet unlike a transport aircraft and thats why even IAF is not in favor of US fighter jets.

there was a news few weeks back that offset proposal files goes missing from MoD , and now media speculating that offset proposals will be submitted after downselection..

So what ??/ Its offset....FYI offset is not effecting the contract, they will talk about offset after selecting the file. FYI US companies are the one who are making fun of our offset policies which got cleared from the recent deals.

that's what the member is saying ..
if Griphen can do the job what Rafale can do , then why not scrap the mmrca and just induct more LCA..

I agree ADA has done a good job but LCA is not suitable for this job. It said that LCA is close to Gripen but here is a thing, LCA is not meant for multi role although it can do other jobs also while Rafale and Gripen are proven multi role fighter jets.

it's india's own , induct as many needed..

Looking at IAF's track record, i even doubt that IAF will induct the amount they are saying they will induct. I think they will increase MMRCA number and reduce LCA because lets be fair, LCA is not a match to any contender in the MMRCA, not even mk2.

An industrial partner for production, not an equal partner of the consortium like UK, or GER as many people confused it!

Well said. These guys are just changing the definition of offset.

even AESA radar is not funded by the partners yet and they've ordered their 112 T3A fighters with the normal Captor radar, which means, if we want AESA earlier, we have to fund at least parts of it too

I heard aesa was finally funded in 2010.

So "co-producing future upgrades" basically means, funding those upgrades they can't afford now, or are not interested in.

well said...

Yes I know rafale has greater range and higher payload, but maintenance costs are too high for rafale.

How do you know, SH is different from Rafale in terms of maintenance ?/ If we would have selected F16, then i understand this because for maintenance we wouldn't have to depend on US because many countries are allowed to offer this facility but the thing is, we are not buying F16.

 

[luckyyy]

The Indian Air Force's Western Air Commander, Air Marshal NAK Browne, whose area of responsibility includes the northern sector with Pakistan, indicated today that the PAF JF-17 was inferior to the yet to be inducted Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. "The LCA is ahead of the JF-17 in terms of contemporary technology. It will achieve final operational capability by the end of next year. The airplane is our design, uses our software, and is fully under our control. I'm not sure what in the JF-17 is under the PAF's control. What do you do if you don't have access to codes," he said.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/10/lca-far-ahead-of-jf-17-in-contemporary.html

point to note is that he is giving a very high emphasis on codes , also LCA is very very cheap..just 30million


The distinguished scientist said the cost of aircraft, which stood around Rs.130 crore, was expected to come down once the HAL started large-scale production of Tejas.

The country had been placed in comfortable position as far as Tejas was concerned as it was not depended upon anybody for lifecycle support, maintenance cost and others because of the indigenous technology.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/article1518094.ece

 

[MST]

and you want to weaken the IAF

And how is that
Are you saying that inducting LCA will weaken the IAF and inducting Gripen will make it strong?

 

[kingdurgaking]

I agree ADA has done a good job but LCA is not suitable for this job. It said that LCA is close to Gripen but here is a thing, LCA is not meant for multi role although it can do other jobs also while Rafale and Gripen are proven multi role fighter jets.

Can you define what is Multirole and how LCA lacks?

 

[angeldemon_007]

Can you define what is Multirole and how LCA lacks?

Look buddy, LCA's main purpose or you can say only purpose was to take the place of Mig21 as a interceptor jets. Now if ADA calls it multi-role or even air superiority, then what can i say. Actually you can always use any fighter jet for any purpose but if that fighter jet is not made for that purpose then its performance won't be good in that field. DRDO chief even called it an air superiority fighter, what that means we can use it in place of Su30 ???

 

[luckyyy]

Look buddy, LCA's main purpose or you can say only purpose was to take the place of Mig21 as a interceptor jets. Now if ADA calls it multi-role or even air superiority, then what can i say. Actually you can always use any fighter jet for any purpose but if that fighter jet is not made for that purpose then its performance won't be good in that field. DRDO chief even called it an air superiority fighter, what that means we can use it in place of Su30 ???

what for you to say , accept it if ADA saying so..

 

[shaktiman2010]

The Indian Air Force's Western Air Commander, Air Marshal NAK Browne, whose area of responsibility includes the northern sector with Pakistan, indicated today that "The LCA is ahead of the JF-17 in terms of contemporary technology. It will achieve final operational capability by the end of next year. The airplane is our design, uses our software, and is fully under our control. I'm not sure what in the JF-17 is under the PAF's control. What do you do if you don't have access to codes," he said.

Livefist: "LCA Far Ahead Of JF-17 In Contemporary Technology": IAF Western Commander

point to note is that he is giving a very high emphasis on codes , also LCA is very very cheap..just 30million


The distinguished scientist said the cost of aircraft, which stood around Rs.130 crore, was expected to come down once the HAL started large-scale production of Tejas.

The country had been placed in comfortable position as far as Tejas was concerned as it was not depended upon anybody for lifecycle support, maintenance cost and others because of the indigenous technology.

Good points, he made.

 

[duhastmish]

Its crazy how can people compare tejas with mrca.

its a LCA AND MCA diffrence - WEIGHT IS DIFFERENT , engine power , need and doctrine is diffrent.

tejas will be one good machine but lets not choose between them even ,NAVY, IAF ......dont compare them who and why would we ?

let them both come in and there is need for both.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Look buddy, LCA's main purpose or you can say only purpose was to take the place of Mig21 as a interceptor jets. Now if ADA calls it multi-role or even air superiority, then what can i say.

You are partially correct. Correct part is, LCA will replace Mig-21.

It was IAF's official requirement that LCA should be designed as 'multi-role'. That's what ADA guy has said. So, both are on same page.

And whether its air-superiority fighter or not, is quite rudimentary. LCA is the holy grail of Aerospace industry in India. That's what is going to be of highest significance for India's future as aerospace giant.

 

[sancho]

co-producing & co-developing means resources/funding sharing ...and it cost less then just going all alone or just buying off the shelf..

Not for those parts that the partners don't want, or need, in that case co-producing and co-developing is not equal to co- funding!

For example the TVC which the partners don't want, because they are happy with the agility of the EF and don't want to fund the development and integration. So if we want it, we have to pay for it, but our industry will be integrated in the development (which is not possible in this case, because it is already developed) and parts of the production of the TVC will be diverted to our industry.
Same will be the case for the naval typhoon, possibly CFTs, or weapons that the partners don't want. AESA radar instead is not needed for the partners now, which is the reason why they don't want to fund it yet, but they will upgrade their fighters with it later. That means if we want EF with AESA, we have to pay a part of the development and can join the development (to some extend) and the production of it.

If we are realistic we know, that we can't contribute much to the developtment of upgrades, even absorbing the ToT will be a difficult issue (remember what Boeing said about HAL?) and will take time. So we mainly fund and co-produce possible upgrades of the EF, without a real co-development included.

 

[sancho]

You are partially correct. Correct part is, LCA will replace Mig-21.

It was IAF's official requirement that LCA should be designed as 'multi-role'. That's what ADA guy has said. So, both are on same page.

And whether its air-superiority fighter or not, is quite rudimentary. LCA is the holy grail of Aerospace industry in India. That's what is going to be of highest significance for India's future as aerospace giant.

Even Mig 21 Bison have some multi role capabilities, because they can use some A2G weapons. LCA is was more capable in this regard, because it can use several different A2G weapons too and even the MK1 can use targeting pods and LGBs.
The difference to MMRCA will mainly be the numbers of weapon stations, the payload and variety of weapons to fulfill different roles and the single engine design with lower thrust will be a limiting factor of course.

 

[sancho]

Some pics regarding Paveway IV integration on EF:

 

[SpArK]

@sancho..

Every manufacturer except France has got 5' th gen plans including sweden.

Do you think if we go for Rafale , France would have enough funding to go for its own 5th gen, since there are no plans yet for them to acquire or built any 5th gen fighter, except that nEUROn UCAV.

 

[sancho]

@sancho..

Every manufacturer except France has got 5' th gen plans including sweden.

Do you think if we go for Rafale , France would have enough funding to go for its own 5th gen, since there are no plans yet for them to acquire or built any 5th gen fighter, except that nEUROn UCAV.

Hi Spark, we have to differ here between European countries that will develop a 5. gen fighter and manufacturers that has made some studies.
Apart from those countries that are commited to F35, the Europeans mainly aim on modern 4th gen fighters (Eurocanards) and later possibly UCAVs (2 to 3 different were under development, but could merged to 1 now). The vendors however have to do at least studies, or even tech demonstrators to develop an experience base for these NG technologies, that's EADS, SAAB and even Dassault made some studies:

MBB Lampyridae

Saabs offer for S. Korean KFX fighter

Dassault FACE concept

Not to mention that the Germans basically were (just like on many other high tech arms), the inventors of stealth fighters:

Horten Ho 229

Check these links:

:: Tecnogeek - Historia en Tecnogeek - Horten Ho 229 :: (the national geographic videos are very interesting!)

Stealth technologies - British, Swedish and French aviation projects and solutions

Meet the European Stealth Fighter…from 1981!


Btw, this is a stealthy Rafale concept that is rumored to be planed for the future, although it's not a real stealth fighter and more comparable to Boeings Silent Hornet:

However, Dassault is said to be developing "stealthy" changes for the Rafale, as well as for weapon pods and the weapons, or fuel tanks as well.
Europe is often seen as far behind the US in the aero, or arms field, which imo is plain wrong! The difference is simply that Europe neither wants to go for war as often as the US does, nor do they want to spend so much money on arms developments. If they would combined their financial budgets and develop aircrafts together instead of independent, they could easily compete with the US and the developments of the recent years are going that way (Tornado => EF => NH90 => NEURON...).

 

[SpArK]

^^^^

Brilliant info and thanks...

And its good to know about Rafale's plan for the future with its fighter.

Any news of Dassaults participation in AMCA programme?