Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[luckyyy]

Not easy as you talk ... Any induction needs proper planning, funds, and infrastructure to support it.. other wise you will produce the fighter with higher cost.. In addition to this if you induct 40 LCA / year ... your factories will be idle and you will incur more loss.. All this will affect economy... A decent induction will be max of 15 with the infrastructure we have... which means it will take 6 yrs to induct 90 planes.. that means after 2018 you will wait till 2025 for induction of 90 planes.. while we will have squad strength reduced to 25 and more money will be wasted on upgrading age old fighters like Jaguar, 27 , 29 and M-2000.. which doesnt make any sense.. it is better to go for new fighters with induction promised from 2014 from the time 27 will be retiring ..

My guess if LCA MK-2 comes out before 2018 say 2016 with a competing technologies... its order will be surely increased to 250... while MMRCA will be kept at 126

90 planes..?

i think it would be 500 in case MMRCA get scraped...

 

[kingdurgaking]

90 planes..?

i think it would be 500 in case MMRCA get scraped...

I gave you the reason for need for MMRCA... 500 LCA is too much.. i dont think we need that much numbers.. 250 seems to be a decent number

so logical numbers by 2040

250 FGFA
150 AMCA
272 MKI
126 MMRCA
250 LCA

... by then MKI/MMRCA and LCA MK-1 starts retiring to be replaced by AURA

 

[luckyyy]

I gave you the reason for need for MMRCA... 500 LCA is too much.. i dont think we need that much numbers.. 250 seems to be a decent number

so logical numbers by 2040

250 FGFA
150 AMCA
272 MKI
126 MMRCA
250 LCA

... by then MKI/MMRCA and LCA MK-1 starts retiring to be replaced by AURA

so logical numbers by 2040

250 FGFA
150 AMCA
100 MKI rest 180 goes retire by 2040
000 MMRCA coz we are assuming we won't need mmrca

so , 500 LCA

 

[kingdurgaking]

so logical numbers by 2040

250 FGFA
150 AMCA
100 MKI rest 180 goes retire by 2040
000 MMRCA coz we are assuming we won't need mmrca

so , 500 LCA

hmmm what will happen to the gap between 2013-2020 when we are going to retire lot of fighters??? can you assure IAF that MK-2 will be ready by 2014? with all technologies equivalent to existing once?

 

[Dash]

that's what the member is saying ..
if Griphen can do the job what Rafale can do , then why not scrap the mmrca and just induct more LCA..

And how will LCA fill the gap then. The gap we have is not about less squadrons or less fighters.

The gap we have is too many different type and not a sinlge platform is matured.
Su 30 MKI will be the top end fighter and LCA will be the low end fighter. there shoould be something in middle and those fighters will have to be multiroled to perform a large amount of job.

MRCA is just visioned to gap the below things.

1. Reduce the dependancy on too many different fighters for different roles.
2. Reduce the maintainance issues we have for so many fighters, and its the biggest issue.
3. Now LCA is not multirole, and thats the biggest problem fort IAF for not including it in larger numbers. What will they do with 300 fighters? which by far is best for interception and escort and sume point defence????...

Errr...the Air Chief himself said that Tejas will be as good as the Gripen going forward. I am sure you won't be knowing more than him isn't it. Instead of buying gripen NG which will be available in 2017 its better to scrap MMRCA and buy 300 LCA MKII.

and you want to weaken the IAF

 

[GORKHALI]

SIMPLY WOW !!!!!!!!

 

[sancho]

One month old, but interesting to look at what they say and what they really mean!

Eurofighter Seeks India as Industrial Partner for Production, Future Developments

An industrial partner for production, not an equal partner of the consortium like UK, or GER as many people confused it!

Mr. Gerwert said: "Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc."

So far they offered:

- co production of avionics in India and that they would set up the neccesary production facilities
- Naval Typhoon specially for IN, if we fund it (and most likely similar to Saabs offer of the Sea Gripen, this re-design will be offered as part as the ToT, but with limited use)
- 3D TVC co - development for LCA and EF, if we fund it
- CFTs if we fund it
- even AESA radar is not funded by the partners yet and they've ordered their 112 T3A fighters with the normal Captor radar, which means, if we want AESA earlier, we have to fund at least parts of it too
- weapons like RBS 15, Hosbo, which won't be integrated, or fully developed by the partner countries, but are on offer for us, if we fund them

So "co-producing future upgrades" basically means, funding those upgrades they can't afford now, or are not interested in.


If they would offered this 10 years ago and we had the choice of MKI, EF, or Rafale, I would have supported the EF without any doubt!
It is the best air superioirty fighter, offers high potential, high industrial and political value for us. Even if several things has to be developed with our money and with additional time to be available and mature, in that time it would have been worth it.
However, things are pretty different now! FGFA is on the way, maybe even AMCA, LCA is finally turning to the right directions and will be inducted alongside of MMRCAs. In this situation, adding an expensive, immature and with the financial problems of the partners also risky fighter would clearly be the wrong way to go.

 

[sancho]

A. Most advanced AESA radar being offered to India thourgh MMRCA
B. Has some stealthy capabilties like Internal weapons pod
C.Great range, combat proven
D. International roadmap plan being offered

A) The most advanced AESA on offer is not the Apg 79, but the Captor - E of the EF, because it has more T/R modules, so higher range and the swashplate design.

C) Range is less compared to Rafale

B & D) the only features of the growth map available for India are the higher thrust engine, new MAWS and LWR. They just need additional fundings like all other options, but these can be available soon, while all other capabilities will be developmed only for the competition in Japan. That means, if Japan, or India would pay for the development of the weapon pod, we could retrofit them only during a later upgrade.

SH is going to win just becuase of political advantages.

True, if it wins, then clearly because of this reason and not because of capabilities!

What does Rafale, SH ,EFT can perform that Griphen NG cannot perform...

Anything where the heavy load limits Gripens performance by the lack of thrust (deep penetration with heavy strike weapons at long distances) and at least EF will be better in A2A as well (bigger radar, more thrust, better missile load configs).

 

[GareebNawaz]

A) The most advanced AESA on offer is not the Apg 79, but the Captor - E of the EF, because it has more T/R modules, so higher range and the swashplate design. C) Range is less compared to Rafale

B & D) the only features of the growth map available for India are the higher thrust engine, new MAWS and LWR. They just need additional fundings like all other options, but these can be available soon, while all other capabilities will be developmed only for the competition in Japan. That means, if Japan, or India would pay for the development of the weapon pod, we could retrofit them only during a later upgrade.




True, if it wins, then clearly because of this reason and not because of capabilities!




Anything where the heavy load limits Gripens performance by the lack of thrust (deep penetration with heavy strike weapons at long distances) and at least EF will be better in A2A as well (bigger radar, more thrust, better missile load configs).

Most advanced radar does not mean most matured radar. Correct me if I am wrong but it is to my understanding that there is no AESA on current EF aircraft. And personally i trust the quality of American products. European products are over hyped.

Yes I know rafale has greater range and higher payload, but maintenance costs are too high for rafale.

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

SIMPLY WOW !!!!!!!!

Aweosme mate!!!!

 

[the rafter]

IAS officer cautioned for dropping file on aircraft deal - The Times of India

The ministry of defence has cautioned a senior IAS officer for "accidentally dropping a secret file" related to the $10.4 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft deal.

Giving this information in a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha on Monday, defence minister A K Antony said, "A file relating to request by vendors regarding offsets was accidentally dropped by an officer in Asiad Village where he was residing on December 21, 2010... The officer responsible has been cautioned in writing."

Antony said the file did not contain any sensitive information and was recovered within half-an-hour. "It contained requests of some companies with regard to offsets," he said. After the file was recovered from a roadside in the area, the defence ministry and the Indian Air Force held separate inquiries into the incident. Two IAS officials, including an additional secretary-rank officer, were under the scanner after the incident.

 

[the rafter]

BAE Systems faces 'debarment' from exporting US war-tech ? The Register

US-centred but UK-headquartered arms globocorp BAE Systems may soon face serious restrictions on its operations imposed by the US government.

The Financial Times reports today that the BAE Systems plc, the London-based umbrella corporation for BAE's worldwide operations, is "braced for the imposition of strict curbs" by the US State Department as a year-long probe by State officials draws to a close.

The State Department is in charge of implementing the USA's strict controls on the export of advanced military technology, and it is responsible for ensuring that firms involved in illegal practices should not be licenced to make such exports.

Last year, following a deal with Justice Department investigators in which BAE admitted conspiracy to violate US arms-export laws and paid a $400m fine, the State Department placed certain new BAE Systems plc licences on hold and began a review of the firm's status.

Many products made, sold or assembled by BAE outside the United States nonetheless contain substantial amounts of controlled US technology - indeed almost all advanced Western-made equipment (and even some modern Russian stuff) contains kit subject to America's International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). Examples include the Eurofighter, which cannot be sold to export customers without US clearance, and the Swedish Gripen fighters which BAE was involved in marketing to the Czech republic and Hungary.

US District of Columbia court documents supplied to the Register following the Justice investigation last year stated that:

With respect to the lease of Gripen fighter jets to the Czech Republic and Hungary, and sales of other defense materials to other countries [our emphasis] BAE Systems caused the filing, by the applicant, of false applications for export licenses of US Munitions List defense materials and the making of false statements to the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls...

Previously, officials at the US Defense Department had expressed disquiet over BAE's involvement in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter stealh-warplane programme while also manufacturing combat aircraft outside the US. In a classified report which later broke in the news media, authors at the Defense Inspector-General's department wrote:

The Government needs to be particularly vigilant of attempts by foreign-owned or -controlled companies that could benefit by acquiring critical JSF technologies. The foreign-owned parent of BAE Systems has numerous interests in aircraft development...
BAE Systems manufactures both [Eurofighter] Typhoon and the JSF aircraft components at its Samlesbury site in the United Kingdom. With contractors such as BAE Systems plc, and its subsidiaries working on competing aircraft, the US Government needs to implement effective management accountability and security controls to safeguard sensitive JSF technologies...

More specifically, DoD advanced aviation and weapons technology may not be adequately protected from unauthorized access at facilities and in computers at BAE Systems.

The report caused a furore when it was published. BAE told the Reg at the time:

The DoD IG explicitly found no instances of unauthorized access to classified or export control information on the JSF program. We strongly disagree with the IG's suggestion that nonetheless, such information may have been compromised in some unidentified way by unauthorized access at BAE Systems. There is no basis whatsoever for that conclusion.

The Defense IG's office was later forced to publicly disavow the comments; but nonetheless the report served to indicate the viewpoint of some American security officials regarding BAE's unique position as the largest foreign-controlled defence contractor in the USA.

Following the ITAR conspiracy admissions by BAE last year, it now appears that the State Department may "debar" BAE Systems plc from transferring US technology to other entities (such as customers). Depending on how comprehensive this debarment is, it could exert an almost crippling effect on the company's non-US business: but the State officials have many less devastating options open to them.

In imposing the holds on licences at the beginning of the review, systems and products at war right now as well as future equipment vital to the US (for instance the JSF) were safeguarded.

“Dialogue continues and is progressing with the Department of State in order to address its concerns regarding matters arising from the [Justice] settlement," the firm tells the Financial Times.

No matter what degree of debarment is suffered by BAE Systems plc, this will not affect BAE Inc, the globocorp's US operation, which will be able to continue its lucrative work making equipment mostly for the US government. With BAE Inc unaffected, BAE Systems plc will probably be OK in the long run: the originally British company has effectively moved across the Atlantic in recent decades. Using funds garnered mainly from UK government deals BAE has made huge acquisitions in the States even as it has fired workers and closed factories in Britain.

Today, many more BAE employees are Americans working for BAE Systems Inc than Brits employed by BAE Systems plc: and more than half the group's worldwide profits come from the US company.

 

[the rafter]

Murphy's Law: Why Eurofighter Gets No Respect

March 7, 2011: Faced with more large cuts in its budget, Britain's Royal Air Force fears the worst. Over a decade of cutting corners because of similar economy moves is catching up with RAF. For example, a recent government investigation revealed that a lack of spare parts for the new Eurofighter limited the amount of time pilots could spend in the air. This, in turn, led to only eight pilots being certified as qualified to perform ground attack duties in the Eurofighter. While the Eurofighter is mainly an air-superiority ("fighter") aircraft, there is very little call for that sort of thing at the moment. Ground attack, on the other hand, is very much in demand. The RAF currently has 62 Eurofighters, an aircraft that will replace about 120 remaining Tornados.
Two years ago, Germany and Britain decided to cut back on the number of Eurofighters they will buy. Thus the final 37 Eurofighters Germany agreed to buy for its Luftwaffe (air force), will instead be offered for export. Germany would have preferred to just cancel the final 37 aircraft, but this would have resulted in over a billion dollars in cancellation fees. But the export option will hurt the Eurofighter project, as Germany will sell their 37 aircraft for whatever they can get, thus denying the Eurofighter consortium export sales.

Also in 2009, Britain decided to not take all of its third batch (or "tranche", as they like to call it in Europe) of 88 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. This will cost Britain $2 billion in increased maintenance costs and penalties. Britain will take 40 of the fighters from the third batch, and resell another 24 to Saudi Arabia. In effect, Britain is pulling out of the Eurofighter program, and cancelling 16 of the aircraft if was to have received from the third batch. The British government believes that 184 Eurofighters will be sufficient, and that it cannot afford any more than that.

Originally, Britain planned to buy 232 (Germany was to get 180, Italy 121, and Spain 87.) Britain already has 144 Eurofighters on order from the first two batches, and will end up with 184. There are currently 260 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters in service, four years after it first entered service.

Development of the Eurofighter began in the 1980s, and the first flight took place in 1994. Each aircraft costs over $120 million, including development costs. Current estimates indicate that about 600 will eventually be built. The Typhoon is a somewhat stealthy multi-role fighter. It is fast, maneuverable, and carries a lot of weapons. It also can be used for attack missions. This 23 ton aircraft will be the principal fighter in the air forces of Britain, Spain, Germany, and Italy. The Typhoon is closer in capability to the F-15, than the F-22, and is competing with the F-35 for many export sales. The Typhoon was recently purchased by Saudi Arabia, mainly to provide protection from Iran.

But some users, like Britain and Germany, see no urgent demand for the new Eurofighter. So when it comes time to make budget cuts, spare parts for the Eurofighter, and fuel to get pilots in the air for training, are among the first things to go.

 

[the rafter]

I don't think Eurofighter is any longer fit for the Indian MMRCA. But in any case, posting the article below as FYI....

BAE Systems achieves major capability milestone on Typhoon

New Delhi, March 7 (IANS) The Eurofighter Typhoon, which is one of the six aircraft in contention for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets, has achieved a major milestone in the development of its multi-role combat capabilities with the release of a Paveway IV precision guided bomb, a BAE Systems statement said.

'The milestone was achieved when, for the first time, the avionics system was used to safely release the weapon in an hour-long test flight over the Aberporth Range in Wales,' the statement said.

'The integration of Paveway IV demonstrates a commitment to enhance and upgrade the Typhoon's capabilities in its ground attack role and forms part of the Typhoon Future Capability Upgrade,' the statement added.

Typhoon Test Pilot Nat Makepeace, who was at the controls of development aircraft IPA6, said: 'This was a successful test flight demonstrating the avionics system is able to use global positioning system (GPS) data and target information sourced from the aircraft to prepare for the release. All communication with the aircraft and safe release of the bomb went to plan.'

Paveway IV is a highly accurate, precision guided bomb capable of significantly minimising collateral damage. It is low cost and will provide Typhoon pilots with the very best technology for operations with its all-weather, day and night precision capability,' the statement said.

'The test is part of an ongoing programme to integrate Paveway IV onto the aircraft and builds on the environmental and jettison trials which have already been performed,' the statement added.

'This work further demonstrates the systems integration capabilities of the BAE Systems Typhoon team,' the statement said.

Apart from the Typhoon, the other aircraft contending for the IAF order, valued at $10.4 billion, are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, the Saab Gripen, the Dasault Rafale and the MiG-35.

Evaluation trials have been conducted in India and the country of manufacture and the evaluation reports are now being considered. A decision on the eventual winner of the contract is expected to be taken later this year.

Eighteen aircraft will be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining will be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a transfer of technology agreement.

 

[luckyyy]

One month old, but interesting to look at what they say and what they really mean!



An industrial partner for production, not an equal partner of the consortium like UK, or GER as many people confused it!

Mr. Gerwert said: "Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc."

So "co-producing future upgrades" basically means, funding those upgrades they can't afford now, or are not interested in.

co-producing & co-developing means resources/funding sharing ...and it cost less then just going all alone or just buying off the shelf..

 

[luckyyy]

And how will LCA fill the gap then. The gap we have is not about less squadrons or less fighters.

The gap we have is too many different type and not a sinlge platform is matured.
Su 30 MKI will be the top end fighter and LCA will be the low end fighter. there shoould be something in middle and those fighters will have to be multiroled to perform a large amount of job.

MRCA is just visioned to gap the below things.

1. Reduce the dependancy on too many different fighters for different roles.
2. Reduce the maintainance issues we have for so many fighters, and its the biggest issue.
3. Now LCA is not multirole, and thats the biggest problem fort IAF for not including it in larger numbers. What will they do with 300 fighters? which by far is best for interception and escort and sume point defence????...
:

please update yourself , LCA is a multirole aircraft