Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Back again , just not getting enough time to keep discussion going . Anyways ..... my reply in red

Again
I explained before EW suite of other contenders are as good as Rafale esp F16 F18 , built for SEAD
I explained that before also , link for my that post

Hehe, distracting from EFs shortfalls with F16 B60 capabilities now?

Yes I remember and I thanked you for those infos back then, but we both also agreed on the fact that the F16 IN won't have the Northrop EWS and avionics the UAE has, but new developed versions by Raytheon, which will be the base for upgrades of older F16 in future.

From one of your own posts:

Lockheed Martin plans Raytheon protection suite for F-16

Bangalore: The race for the Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets just got hotter with US defence major Lockheed Martin opting to equip its F-16IN Super Viper with electronics giant Raytheon's protection suite, which the company described as the “world's most advanced electronic warfare system”.
The two companies announced the tie-up on the sidelines of the seventh edition of the Aero India international air show that opened here on Wednesday.

The advanced counter measures electronic system (ACES) comprises a radar-scanning receiver, a jammer and a chaff and flare dispenser, as well as a decoy that is towed behind the aircraft...

Lockheed Martin plans Raytheon protection suite for F-16


From the official website itself:

Raytheon’s Advanced Countermeasures Electronic System is a fully integrated EW suite with robust situational awareness and powerful jamming capabilities. ACES represents the most modern EW digital technology available, providing a secure electronic shield against anti-aircraft missiles and threats from enemy radars

ACES represents the most modern, all-digital internal EW suite available today. The system features a new, all-digital, low cost, high performance RWR for dense signal environments and a new digital RF memory-based (DRFM) jammer with enhanced resource management and technique-rich capabilities.

Built on a legacy of EW suites for the F-16, including Raytheon’s Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suite (ASPIS and ASPIS II), ACES reflects the next generation of advanced EW for the F-16. Legacy efforts and core elements of ACES have proved highly effective against real threats in acceptance flight trials, combat exercises and spontaneous defense of sovereign territory. Designed to detect, identify and counter contemporary threats in a high density environment, the system integrates the Raytheon ALR-69A all-digital RWR with the Raytheon ALQ-187(V)2 jammer and the ALE-47 countermeasures dispenser system — offering an effective and dependable F-16 advanced countermeasures electronic self- protection system.

Raytheon Company: Advanced Countermeasures Electronic System (ACES)


Lets sum up the facts once again! SPECTRA has interferometry techs to not only detect threats, but also geolocate them. Yes, UAEs F16 B60 has similar techs, but that EWS was specially developed for them (also funded by them), not for India, or other F16 operators. F16IN has the Raytheon ACES EWS, without such locating capabilities, just like EFs DASS, or the normal F18SH (the Growler might have it, by the fact that it carries more specialised EW equipment, for example in the ESM wingtip pods) don't have it. The only other MMRCA apart from Rafale is Gripen NG that is planed to have similar techs in future, or at least available for us, but with SPECTRA beeing an operational system for nearly a decade now and still beeing improved, it should be clear which system is the best.

If you want to admit it or not, it is more than a normal self- protection system and offers more defensive and offensive capabilities. These are unique so far and are the key to make Rafale more suited alongside MKI and LCA than any other MMRCA contender!

Point you are overlooking or not emphasizing - is SPECTRA's capability to use ESM to guide weapons is MICA+AASM specific . It is built around MICA IR version only .
While its almost guaranteed few years down the line top tier BVR missile of IAF Arsenal will be either METEOR , / AIM120 . Supplemented by ASTRA ver2
Even if Rafale is chosen meteor is sure.

Yes, Rafale will use it's AESA with METEOR, maybe even with Astra, but unlike other fighters, it will have a secondary BVR missile capability with MICA IR that no other fighter has, so if you have such a unique capability, how is that a disadvantage?
Moreover, you still have the wrong assumption that BVR combats means only long range detection and firing missile at maximum range, which is plain wrong! Most Aim 120 shots were even at lower distances than those 60Km, because of the no escape zone and by the fact that the pilots had to identify their targets first, when no AWACS support is available. Both the no escape zone and visual identification is only possible at lower ranges than the 80, or even 100Km maximum range of Aim 120.
That's why Meteor btw is said to be a great BVR missile, not because it offers long maximum range, but mainly because of the propulison that allows to fly at full speed for the whole range and not only at the start. That dramatically reduces the time to reach the target and reduces the no escape zone for the enemy fighter again => high kill probability!

As I said from the start, Rafale will have less AESA radar range than other fighters in the competition (while not beeing worse at all!), but they did that on purpose, because they don't wanted to rely on a single sensor only, but make full use of all sensors and weapon capabilities they have and the key to this is SPECTRA!

 

[dbc]

Lets sum up the facts once again! SPECTRA has interferometry techs to not only detect threats, but also geolocate them. Yes, UAEs F16 B60 has similar techs, but that EWS was specially developed for them (also funded by them), not for India, or other F16 operators. F16IN has the Raytheon ACES EWS, without such locating capabilities, just like EFs DASS, or the normal F18SH (the Growler might have it, by the fact that it carries more specialised EW equipment, for example in the ESM wingtip pods) don't have it. The only other MMRCA apart from Rafale is Gripen NG that is planed to have similar techs in future, or at least available for us, but with SPECTRA beeing an operational system for nearly a decade now and still beeing improved, it should be clear which system is the best.

F/A -18 E/F has 360° geolocation capability, it is standard equipment on modern fighters.

 

[sancho]

Price talks for 126 jets to begin this month: IAF chief

NEW DELHI: India will this month begin the price negotiation for the $10.4-billion contract for 126 combat planes for its air force to conclude the deal by July this year, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik said here Thursday.

"The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year," Naik, who interacted with the capital's women journalists, said.

India is buying 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for which it issued tender in August 2007. The six contenders for the contract, described in defence circles as 'mother of all deals', are American majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin , Russian United Aircraft Corporation , French Dassault, European consortium EADS-Cassidian and Swedish Saab.

Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed Martin's F-16, United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35, Dassault's Rafale, EADS-Cassidian's Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab's Gripen are the fighter aircraft in the fray.

The chosen combat jet will be the mainstay of IAF's fighter aircraft fleet for the next 40 years. The new MMRCA will replace the IAF's existing fleet of MiG variants.

Price talks for 126 jets to begin this month: IAF chief - The Economic Times

 

[SpArK]

 

[SpArK]

 

[Archie]

Price talks for 126 jets to begin this month: IAF chief - The Economic Times

There are certain errors with this article

For one mmrca will not be the Mainstay or backbone of Indian fleet , at best it would be the backbone of the ground attack fleet which currently comprises 280 fighters including Mig27 , Jaguars and Mirage 2000

Su30MKI will be the backbone of Indian airforce till atleast 2030 thanks mainly due to them being the most numerous fighters in IAF with 270 being inducted by 2015-16
Post 2030 , this role will be taken over by FGFA whose Numbers might be more than 200 in 2030 and would rise to 250-300 by 2035

Hence compared to FGFA and MKI , 126 mmrca are only meant to fill the gap or enhance ground attack capability of IAF coz both MKI and FGFA are air dominance Fighters

 

[sancho]

IAF should invite those Thai Gripens to exercises in India, maybe with Singapores F16s as well. Good experience and also good for the relations to those countries.

There are certain errors with this article

For one mmrca will not be the Mainstay or backbone of Indian fleet , at best it would be the backbone of the ground attack fleet which currently comprises 280 fighters including Mig27 , Jaguars and Mirage 2000

Su30MKI will be the backbone of Indian airforce till atleast 2030 thanks mainly due to them being the most numerous fighters in IAF with 270 being inducted by 2015-16
Post 2030 , this role will be taken over by FGFA whose Numbers might be more than 200 in 2030 and would rise to 250-300 by 2035

Hence compared to FGFA and MKI , 126 mmrca are only meant to fill the gap or enhance ground attack capability of IAF coz both MKI and FGFA are air dominance Fighters

First of all, Mirage is not a ground attack fighter, it was just used in that role, because it is capable to do it and because the others wasn't able to do it in that time.

Secondly, there won't be any ground attack fleet in future, because the fighters will be multi role capable. LCA, MMRCA and MKI together will takeover the ground attack roles. Check one of my last post in the LCA thread, where I showed how that might be divided.

Don't underestimate the potentials of MMRCAs, an EF with AESA imo is better than the MKI in A2A and Rafale can hold pretty well against MKI in A2G. And as we know, there is a possibility that the number of MMRCAs will rise to at least 200. If that is enough to call it backbone or not, is not the important point imo, but some of them has the capability for it.

 

[jha]

Good News for EF fans..


Paveway IV Integrated On Typhoon

A major milestone in the development of Eurofighter Typhoon’s multi-role combat capabilities has been achieved with the release of a Paveway IV precision guided bomb. The milestone was achieved when, for the first time, the avionics system was used to safely release the weapon in an hour long test flight over the Aberporth Range in Wales.
The integration of Paveway IV demonstrates a commitment to enhance and upgrade Typhoon’s capabilities in its ground attack role and forms part of the Typhoon Future Capability Upgrade.

Typhoon Test Pilot Nat Makepeace, who was at the controls of development aircraft IPA6, said: “This was a successful test flight demonstrating the avionics system is able to use global positioning system (GPS) data and target information sourced from the aircraft to prepare for the release. All communication with the aircraft and safe release of the bomb went to plan.”

Paveway IV is a highly accurate, precision guided bomb capable of significantly minimising collateral damage. It is low cost and will provide Typhoon pilots with the very best technology for operations with its all-weather, day and night precision capability.

The test is part of an ongoing programme to integrate Paveway IV onto the aircraft and builds on the environmental and jettison trials which have already been performed.

Paveway IV is expected to be provided to the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) early in 2012 when the RAF will start operational evaluation.

This work further demonstrates the systems integration capabilities of the BAE Systems Typhoon team. These skills are essential for the continued development of the Typhoon aircraft. The team is working closely with the MOD, the Eurofighter partner nations and Raytheon on this development programme.

Chindits: Paveway IV Integrated On Typhoon

 

[SpArK]

Eurofighter:  News Detail

 

[jha]

Conspiracy theory? Aero India bribe episode aimed at ousting Rafael from MMRCA race, says Deccan Herald

The Aero India bribe-for-better-display-case is getting interesting by the day. Popular South Indian daily Deccan Herald has got another interesting report today (March 9), this time linking the issue to the much-awaited MMRCA deal. It doesn't get bigger than this!


Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Conspiracy theory? Aero India bribe episode aimed at ousting Rafael from MMRCA race, says Deccan Herald

 

[GORKHALI]

HATE EUROFIGHTER NOW EVEN WORST CONTENDER IN MMRCA ........

 

[SpArK]

Deeper conspiracy in Aero India’s bribe-for-display case?​

Chandan Nandy and Chethan Kumar, Bangalore, March 8, DHNS:

An Indian Air Force (IAF) officer who allegedly took bribes from one or more foreign aircraft companies to provide them favourable positions at last month's Aero India 2011 could be the prey in a conspiracy to oust a European firm in the race to bag the multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Investigations by Deccan Herald indicate that the name of P V Rao, a representative of French Dassault Systemes, manufacturer of the Rafael fighter aircraft, which is one of the planes being considered by the Indian establishment for the MMRCA, emerged in the bribes-for-display scandal involving Wing Commander A K Thakur against whom the IAF has initiated a Court of Inquiry (CoI) here.

Wg Cdr Thakur allegedly took Rs 20,000 from Rao to give the Rafael a favourable position on the static display area at Yelahanka airbase where the Aero India 2011 show was conducted. When contacted, Rao said: “An inquiry is on and I will make no comments at this point. Let the inquiry be over and only then will I make any comment.”

According to top defence sources familiar with the complaint against Wg Cdr Thakur, neither Rao nor any other Dassault representative complained against the errant officer either with the IAF top brass in Delhi or in Bangalore.

The sources said senior IAF officers in Yelahanka received a "verbal" complaint from an official of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, saying that Wg Cdr Thakur had taken a bribe of Rs 20,000 from Rao. Incidentally, officials belonging to the Defence Exhibitions Organisation (DEO), which is under the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, had set the trap on Wg Cdr Thakur, as reported by Deccan Herald on March 6.

In this context sources said that Wg Cdr Thakur could only have come under the scanner if had taken bribes in the days before he was actually caught. "There are blacksheep in every organisation. The sources said that Wg Cdr was not senior enough in the hierarchy to make any huge difference to foreign vendors at the static display area. Besides, they said, decisions on placement of individual vendors would have been taken by the MoD at least a month in advance. However, due action in accordance with the IAF's procedures are on and he will be punished if there is sufficient evidence against him," a top defence official requesting anonymity told Deccan Herald.

On the day the complaint was lodged against Wg Cdr Thakur by the Assistant Provost Marshal, a joint secretary rank officer of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, Satyajeet Rajan, was present. When Deccan Herald asked department's secretary Raj Kumar Singh whether Wg Cdr Thakur was a victim of a more sinister move, he refused to comment, saying only that the MoD spokesman would respond to all queries. The New Delhi-based spokesman, when contacted over phone, said he has "not been given a brief" by the ministry on this issue.

However, knowledgeable sources in the MoD suspect while Wg Cdr Thakur did accept the bribe, there could be a move afoot to push the French company out of the race by throwing in its name in the scandal that has hit the IAF and thereby scuttle its chances of bagging the ambitious multi-billion dollar contract that six foreign companies are vying for.

Deeper conspiracy in Aero India’s bribe-for-display case?

 

[Paan Singh]

Deeper conspiracy in Aero India’s bribe-for-display case?​

Chandan Nandy and Chethan Kumar, Bangalore, March 8, DHNS:

An Indian Air Force (IAF) officer who allegedly took bribes from one or more foreign aircraft companies to provide them favourable positions at last month's Aero India 2011 could be the prey in a conspiracy to oust a European firm in the race to bag the multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Investigations by Deccan Herald indicate that the name of P V Rao, a representative of French Dassault Systemes, manufacturer of the Rafael fighter aircraft, which is one of the planes being considered by the Indian establishment for the MMRCA, emerged in the bribes-for-display scandal involving Wing Commander A K Thakur against whom the IAF has initiated a Court of Inquiry (CoI) here.

Wg Cdr Thakur allegedly took Rs 20,000 from Rao to give the Rafael a favourable position on the static display area at Yelahanka airbase where the Aero India 2011 show was conducted. When contacted, Rao said: “An inquiry is on and I will make no comments at this point. Let the inquiry be over and only then will I make any comment.”

According to top defence sources familiar with the complaint against Wg Cdr Thakur, neither Rao nor any other Dassault representative complained against the errant officer either with the IAF top brass in Delhi or in Bangalore.

The sources said senior IAF officers in Yelahanka received a "verbal" complaint from an official of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, saying that Wg Cdr Thakur had taken a bribe of Rs 20,000 from Rao. Incidentally, officials belonging to the Defence Exhibitions Organisation (DEO), which is under the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, had set the trap on Wg Cdr Thakur, as reported by Deccan Herald on March 6.

In this context sources said that Wg Cdr Thakur could only have come under the scanner if had taken bribes in the days before he was actually caught. "There are blacksheep in every organisation. The sources said that Wg Cdr was not senior enough in the hierarchy to make any huge difference to foreign vendors at the static display area. Besides, they said, decisions on placement of individual vendors would have been taken by the MoD at least a month in advance. However, due action in accordance with the IAF's procedures are on and he will be punished if there is sufficient evidence against him," a top defence official requesting anonymity told Deccan Herald.

On the day the complaint was lodged against Wg Cdr Thakur by the Assistant Provost Marshal, a joint secretary rank officer of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, Satyajeet Rajan, was present. When Deccan Herald asked department's secretary Raj Kumar Singh whether Wg Cdr Thakur was a victim of a more sinister move, he refused to comment, saying only that the MoD spokesman would respond to all queries. The New Delhi-based spokesman, when contacted over phone, said he has "not been given a brief" by the ministry on this issue.

However, knowledgeable sources in the MoD suspect while Wg Cdr Thakur did accept the bribe, there could be a move afoot to push the French company out of the race by throwing in its name in the scandal that has hit the IAF and thereby scuttle its chances of bagging the ambitious multi-billion dollar contract that six foreign companies are vying for.

Deeper conspiracy in Aero India’s bribe-for-display case?

just for 20000 Rs,shame on them they sold themselves in low cost

 

[SpArK]

4 mica IR/EM mix
2 meteor (on the rear fuselage hardpoints)
1 scalp/black shaheen cruise missile
1 AM-39 bk2 exocet anti-ship missile
3 SBU-38 Hammer INS/GPS/IIR bombs

 

[SpArK]

Rafale​

Air defence #1 : 3 RPL 1250L. + 4 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR

Interception #1 : 1 RPL 1250L. + 4 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR

Anti ship #1 : 2 RPL 1250L. + 1 AM39 Exocet + 4 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR

Close Air Support #1 : 3 RPL 1250L. + 6 GBU-12 + 1 Damocles LDP + 2 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR

Close Air Support #2 : 3 RPL 1250L. + 3 GBU-10 + 1 Damocles LDP + 2 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR

Close Air Support #1 : 3 RPL 2000L. + 6 SBU + 2 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR

Stand off Strike #2 : 3 RPL 2000L. + 2 Scalp/EG + 2 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR

Stand off Strike #1 : 2 RPL 2000L. + 1 Scalp/EG + 4 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR​