Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Contrarian]

Buying Russian is difficult to image-for now. Buying the MiG 35 would make our entire Airforce fleet of Russian Origin-which would make IAF completely dependent on Russia. I highly doubt if the MiG 35 wins.

It might even turn out to be Gripen-for neutrality's sake!

 

[nitesh]

Nope I think gripen's chances are lower as the ToT issues will come in to picture. How they will give the ToT of the equipments that are owned by USA. USA can simply turn the favor in there way. I think as of now F 18 is the front runner with it's proven AESA and the range of weapons it can carry.

 

[Contrarian]

I dont think they'd go with the US either. That for sure is going to piss the Russians apart from being dependent on the US for something as major as this!

I think its a 3 way competition b/w Rafale, Typhoon and the Gripen.

MRCA is as much about politics as it is about technology.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I dont think they'd go with the US either. That for sure is going to piss the Russians apart from being dependent on the US for something as major as this!

I think its a 3 way competition b/w Rafale, Typhoon and the Gripen.

MRCA is as much about politics as it is about technology.

IAF is pretty reluctant to buy US orders.. India's shift of policy and more closer ties with US is going to pay off.. Nuclear deal has also assured that US will win the orders. FA-18 is a more realistic choice for IAF which will supplement MKIs. you can mark my words.. Boeing will win this contract this was probibly decided 2-3 years ago but india just wants to drag this contenders to attract more defense companies.. i mean come on think . all this is publicity stunt.. this way IAF will also attract more boys for the air force..
mean while.. india will try to make ruski papa satisfy by buying couple of mig-29K squadrons..
in another words. EF-2000 Rafale and typhoon are too expensive.. IAF will be better off with Su-50s.

 

[JEFF]

IAF is pretty reluctant to buy US orders.. India's shift of policy and more closer ties with US is going to pay off.. Nuclear deal has also assured that US will win the orders. FA-18 is a more realistic choice for IAF which will supplement MKIs. you can mark my words.. Boeing will win this contract this was probibly decided 2-3 years ago but india just wants to drag this contenders to attract more defense companies.. i mean come on think . all this is publicity stunt.. this way IAF will also attract more boys for the air force..
mean while.. india will try to make ruski papa satisfy by buying couple of mig-29K squadrons..
in another words. EF-2000 Rafale and typhoon are too expensive.. IAF will be better off with Su-50s.

Don't you think those F/A-18EF alongwith all other ammunitions are expensive either?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Don't you think those F/A-18EF alongwith all other ammunitions are expensive either?

then is any of those MRCA not expensive? india has been inducting just about any US Israeli armaments for MKI and possibly for 120 new MRCA use..

 

[Black Stone]

I think if India sees the Lightning II in their future inventory then they should go for the Falcon.

 

[nitesh]

10.2 billion dollars is good money plus the winner gets an advantage in future orders. The F 18 and rafale/typhoon is a good choice because boeing is going to come up with Block III version also, whereas rafale/typhoon being a comparatively new platform can see lot of upgrades. Russia has less chances because they already have too much on beg. But they can win if the come up with some really good offer. The F 16 is almost getting end of it's life in USAF with F 35 coming online. So until lockheed comes up with and idea of providing f 35 as a future roadmap. it's chances looks bleak. regarding Gripen it is a dark horse. It is using US technology, weapons. So I don't know how they can be a neutral choice. When u want US technology then why not buy from US.

 

[Nihat]

guys , I found this on BR

this news is all over the indian media - here is the english version:

‘France clears technology transfer for Rafale fighter’

Paris, Nov 05: The French government has cleared the full transfer of technology for the Rafale combat jet that is one of the six aircraft in contention for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 fighters in a deal worth USD 10 billion, its manufacturer Dassault Aviation says.

"When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces," JPHP Chabriol, Dassault's senior vice president for military sales, told a group of visiting Indian journalists at the company's headquarters here.

"The way we work, we first have to obtain clearance of the government before putting in our proposal. If we win the order, we can begin work on transferring technology from day one - unlike our competition," he added.

The technology transfer would include that of a cutting edge radar that gives the Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), Chabriol maintained, adding that the software source code would also be provided with the equipment.

The Advanced Extended Search Array (AESA) radar that Dassault is offering is still under development by French aerospace giant Thales, a partner in the Rafale project, and is expected to be integrated with the aircraft by 2012, around which time the IAF is expected to narrow down its choice of aircraft.

"We have full faith in the competency of Thales to deliver a top of the line AESA radar," Chabriol added.

Transfer of technology is a key clause in the Defence Policy-2006 (DPP-2006) that governs India's purchases of military hardware. Two other companies in the fray - Boeing and European conglomerate Eurofighter - are also offering an AESA radar with their F/A-18 Super Hornet and Typhoon respectively but say the transfer of this technology would be dependent to the extent the American government permits as the radar's manufacturer is US electronics giant Raytheon.

At least one of these two companies has said they would definitely not transfer the software source code that enables the programming of the radar. What this means is that the IAF would have to specify the mission parameters to enable the manufacturer configure the radar.

Defence analysts point out that this could seriously compromise India's national security as the IAF would not be able to re-programme the radar should it wish to at a later stage.

"This is not an issue with us. We will not only fully transfer the technology for the AESA radar but also provide the software source code so that that the IAF can programme it in the way it wishes to," Chabriol said in response to a specific query.

Apart from the Rafale, the F/A-18 and the Typhoon, the other aircraft in the fray are the Lockheed Martin F-16, the Saab Grippen and the MiG-35, which is essentially an upgraded version of the MiG-29 that the IAF already operates.

The IAF had floated its global tender for the jets in September 2007 and these were opened earlier this year. The technical bids are currently being evaluated after which all the six aircraft will be put through a rigorous testing process in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.

The first is meant to gauge the aircraft's ability to operate in the humid conditions of south, the second their effectiveness in the deserts of Rajasthan and the third to study their suitability in the icy Himalayan heights of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir.

By the time the evaluation process is complete, the size of the order is likely to rise to around 200 jets, as the IAF, which is down to 32 squadrons from a high of 39-1/2, is expected to see a further depletion of its fleet due to the retirement of some its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 aircraft. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 squadrons.

Chabriol also pointed out that being 100 percent French gave Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the technology transfer issue.

"The Grippen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US government's approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament (the US Congress).

"This legislative approval is not an issue in our case," Chabriol added.

IANS

I found this article on aajtak and if it's true then it should give Rafael a distinct edge as it was one of the front runners already and this just puts them ahead even furthur.

 

[nitesh]

you will here more news's like this soon, every body is trying to sell off there product. So let's wait and watch for the evaluations to begin

 

[nitesh]

Just wanted to add here that as snecma is working with GTRE for engine of LCA so if the same engine can be fixed on rafale then it will drastically reduce the logistics cost. It will be a good choice.

 

[ejaz007]

Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale news
05 November 2008


Paris: The French government has cleared full technology transfer for Dassault's Rafale combat jet, one of the six contenders for the Indian Air Force's (IAF) 126 multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which is estimated to be eventually worth atleast $11 billion over its lifetime.

Briefing Indian media representatives at its Champs-Elysées, Paris, headquarters Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales, JPHP Chabriol, said, ''When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces.''

''The way we work, we first have to obtain clearance of the government before putting in our proposal. If we win the order, we can begin work on transferring technology from day one - unlike our competition,'' he added.

Critically for India, the transfer-of-technology (T-o-T) would include that of a state-of-the-art Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that would provide Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), apart from its designed function as a fighter. The AESA radar T-o-T would also include transfer of software source code, according to Chabriol.

This is a matter of great concern for India, or any country, that seeks T-o-T of sensitive equipment. Lack of access to the source code would not allow a country to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment should it so wish.

Defence analysts point out that this could seriously compromise India's national security as the IAF would not be able to re-programme the radar should it wish to at a later stage.

The AESA radar on offer from Dassault is still under development by French aerospace giant Thales and is expected to be integrated with the aircraft by 2012. This is roughly the time the selected aircraft from the MMRCA tender may be expected to enter IAF service.

''We have full faith in the competency of Thales to deliver a top of the line AESA radar,'' Chabriol added.

Two other competing fighters Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet and the European conglomerate Eurofighter's Typhoon are also being made available with AESA radars though with the provision that transfer of technology for this equipment would be dependent on the decision of their respective governments.

Earlier statements from manufacturers of AESA radars has been categorical about the fact that transfer of source code is not on the cards. Since source code enables programming of the radar, what this implies is that the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.

''This is not an issue with us. We will not only fully transfer the technology for the AESA radar but also provide the software source code so that that the IAF can programme it in the way it wishes to,'' Chabriol informed journalists.

Apart from the Rafale, the F/A-18 and the Typhoon, other MMRCA contenders are the Lockheed Martin F-16, Saab Gripen and the MiG-35.

The technical bids for the MMRCA tender are currently being evaluated after which all six aircraft will be put through a rigorous testing process at Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.

While Bangalore as as a location is meant to test the ability of these aircraft to operate in the humid conditions of south, Jaisalmer would test their effectiveness in the deserts of Rajasthan while Leh would test their suitability in the Himalayan heights of Ladakh.

The MMRCA tender is meant to replace legacy MiG-21 and other fighters and raise IAF's squadron strength to atleast 39, from the current depleted level of 32.

Chabriol also pointed out that being 100 per cent French also provided Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the issue of technology transfer.

''The Gripen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US government's approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament (the US Congress).

''This legislative approval is not an issue in our case,'' Chabriol said.


domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale

 

[nitesh]

can we give some more twist

originally IAF wanted Mirage2k but it got delayed and now the MRCA tender is running.
Snecma is with GTRE to develop a new engine which will be used by LCA which will have the same core as used in rafale and perhaps MCA also
now this full ToT news
isn't it looks like a writing on the wall?

 

[ejaz007]

MMRCA: Updates and Developments


Nov 6/08: India Defence reays concerns from Dassault Aviation’s senior vice president for military sales J.P.H.P. Chabriol. After observing that the Rafale, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter constitute one tier of price and capabilities, and the F-16, JAS-39 Gripen, and MiG-35 constitute another, he adds that:

“The IAF’s RFP (request for proposal), in the first analysis, in terms of performance, is not extremely demanding. We don’t want a situation where the other three aircraft are compliant with the RFP but we lose out on the price differential…. The IAF has to decide whether it wants a heavy aircraft or a light aircraft…. Quite obviously, there would be a price differential if a single or a twin-engine jet is chosen. If India takes the L-1 (lowest tender) route this would be unfair because we have a good product but this quality comes at a price.”

It shoud be remembered that Dassault withdrew its own Mirage 2000 lightweight fighter from the MMRCA competition before the RFP was finalized. Chabriol reportedly added that Dassault had made an ‘unsolicited offer’ of 40 Rafales as well, presumably as an inducement toward a dual platform “high-low” MMRCA buy. India Defence.

Nov 5/08: domain-b reports that France’s government gas approved full technology transfer for the Rafale fighter, including the AESA radar currently under development for that platform. The decision could also have corollary benefits for Saab’s Gripen, as Saab is currently engaged in a joint development arrangement with Thales around the RB2 for its JAS-39 Gripen NG.

Dassault Aviation’s senior vice president for military sales J.P.H.P. Chabriol added that Source code transfer would be included. This is a major step, as it would enable the IAF to program the radars itself without having to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers. Chabroil also pointed to the lack of American components in the Rafale, which generates concern in some Indian quarters despite sbstantially improved relations with Washington:

“The Gripen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US government’s approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament [US Congress]. This legislative approval is not an issue in our case.”

Oct 7/08: A domain-b report quotes Alexei Fyodorov, chief of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC). Fyodorov says what he’s expected to say, then adds an interesting allegation:

“The competition is very tough, but we have several trump cards – the MiG-35’s superb performance characteristics and the fact that Russia and India share a long-standing partnership in strategic and political cooperation…. So far, none of the participants has met the demands of the tender put forward by the Indian air force….”

Sept 10/08: Saab announces a letter of intent with Tata Consultancy Services Limited (TCS), regarding establishment of an Aeronautical Design and Development Centre (ADDC) in India. The centre is not aimed at any particular program but will explore market opportunities in areas such as aero structures, aero systems, avionics and after market support for both military and civil aeronautical applications. Saab release.

India’s MMRCA Fighter Competition

Its a long article and I have only posted the latest updates. It seems the battle is heating up and with the passage of time new issues will come up.

 

[p2prada]

We should go with Rafale. We can license build the AESA, airframe and also incorporate the kaveri engine into the rafale. It would make us less dependent on the french for spare parts. The use of composite materials also helps us in maintaining the craft easily.