What's new

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Is Gripen-NG/IN which is offered to India comparable to F-16 blk-52+ which Pakistan have?
Bcoz F-16IN which is offered by LM to India is superior than Gripen-NG/IN.
Absolutely -

Gripen IN will have AESA, Meteor, and its a new airframe design, it has HMD, and mostly its different from F-16s operated by Pak. Now if India opts for F-16IN then Pak wwill have an upper hand as they already operate it since 80s, but Gripen for them will be a completely new platform.

But it will be good for us to keep Pak out of our conversation. F-16 itself is a proven aircraft but you wouldnt want to operate a craft whose design is 20 years older at least, when you are looking out for a craft which can serve you for 30 years.

This is a very generic openion.
 
.
Is Gripen-NG/IN which is offered to India comparable to F-16 blk-52+ which Pakistan have?
Bcoz F-16IN which is offered by LM to India is superior than Gripen-NG/IN.

To my knowledge F16 IN with a very matured AESA radar is superior to Gripen NG which started testing its AESA radar only last year.
 
.
YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME RIGHT ?:woot:YOU MEAN THIS
gripen-ng-2.jpg


OR this
f16i.jpg

If you compare a computer Generated graphic with a real Image its no surprise. CGI can make anything look super deadly :devil:
 
.
If you compare a computer Generated graphic with a real Image its no surprise. CGI can make anything look super deadly :devil:

lalala hope this is not !!!!!
jas39ng_200811201.jpg


hope you not gonna forget to say THANKZ :cheesy::cheesy:
 
  • Like
Reactions: MST
. . . .
Sancho -

If we take the cost into consideration wlong with diplomacy behind it...

...What do you think at this moment, I know I like Rafale, but want to keep the personal openion out for the time being as shotlisting will happen soon. Just a check before we hit tha pot.

Hi Dash, there are many things in your post that doesn't really fit, but it would take too long to answer them 1 on 1, if i get you right your main issue here is costs right?

But if you compare the costs, you can't just compare the basic price only, but have to consider what is offered for the price too!

As I showed in the comparison with the SH, the Rafale offered in MMRCA has a higher tech level than the F18SH Block 2 and which can be equalised only with the Block 3 upgrade, so with additional costs. Not to mention that the SH needs more costs for new weapons and logistics that are not available in IAF now. So the F18SH for IAF can turn out costlier and with with less difference to Rafale than the pure fly away cost difference tells us.
Gripen of course is most likely the cost-effective solution, but the problem is, that it is still a paperplane! The Gripen NG, is just a tech demonstrator and not a real prototype of the Gripen E/F and besides several changes at the performance specs, the costs can be different later too. That's why it was marked as high risk in Brazil, because at the moment it is difficult to calculate it's real costs. Saab says that it costs $4000 per hour (later corrected to $5000) to operate Gripen E/F, but the Brazilian air force calculations says $8000. Of course it is still the cheapest, but much closer to the twin engine fighters than advertised by Saab and for India they are advertising with $3000 per hour only!
EF is undeniably the most expensive fighter in the competition, but I always said don't look at costs only, look at what we get in return for it! The partnership offer, is obviously one of the most interesting one and their offset offer will be good for sure too. But imo, EF doesn't fulfill our technical needs as a fighter, be it for IAF, SFC, or IN. That's why it offers not enough in return for all the money we have to spend, because we have to add costs for integration of new weapons an capabilities too, not to mention that we still need 2 different fighters for SFC and IN. The costs would have been better if we had opted for EJ 200 for Tejas too, but we didn't and that's imo a clear sign against the EF too.

With the infos available (for us), I still say Rafale is the best choice for us, because it offers the most in return for the costs!
 
.
Hi Dash, there are many things in your post that doesn't really fit, but it would take too long to answer them 1 on 1, if i get you right your main issue here is costs right?

Yes, what you are pointing out here is cost v/s availablity, present v/s future costs.

Now, My point is if we ever have to consider cost V/s tech i think cost will play a major role in deciding who is going to be the winner. tech is not everything and thats what EJ-2000 rejection tells us (also knowing they forged the deal), but tech wasnt considered at all.

Now if we look at the cost of life cycle, compared against, cost for upgrades, maintainance, and mostly the life of the plane, then cost runs parallaly with everything. Now my point is the acquisition price is capped at $10-12 billion . Obviously thats the price for flay away and TOT, plus maintainace and support for 5-6 years. Im sure the price of each plane will get down drastically when they are made in India with TOT as oppesed to being made in respective countries. so to say whatever the price offered to other countries will not be applicable to us. The best reference we can take is of Brazil coz they are also dealing on the similar lines. So whatever price they are offered the same or even lower saying this is a much bigger deal and Indian production prices will be on offer to us. So if $78 million for a Rafale for Brazil may become $ 72-73 for India.

As I showed in the comparison with the SH, the Rafale offered in MMRCA has a higher tech level than the F18SH Block 2 and which can be equalised only with the Block 3 upgrade, so with additional costs. Not to mention that the SH needs more costs for new weapons and logistics that are not available in IAF now. So the F18SH for IAF can turn out costlier and with with less difference to Rafale than the pure fly away cost difference tells us.

My question is F-18 SH can be decided without the EPE engine, but its a wait to see if we are getting that engine for LCA, if not the same engine with the current AESA can be opted. As this will reduce the logistical challenge for IAF. cosz they will maintain 200 LCAs and 126 F-18 with ease. and the same comes to Gripen too...So that saves cost here. and GE no where mentioned about additional pricing for EPE or EDE for LCA engine bid and deal price was still lower. Americans can save a you a of money when it comes to their fighters.

EF is undeniably the most expensive fighter in the competition, but I always said don't look at costs only, look at what we get in return for it! The partnership offer, is obviously one of the most interesting one and their offset offer will be good for sure too. But imo, EF doesn't fulfill our technical needs as a fighter, be it for IAF, SFC, or IN. That's why it offers not enough in return for all the money we have to spend, because we have to add costs for integration of new weapons an capabilities too, not to mention that we still need 2 different fighters for SFC and IN. The costs would have been better if we had opted for EJ 200 for Tejas too, but we didn't and that's imo a clear sign against the EF too.

EF doesnt have a chance and we both know that so not talking abt EF.

What I am trying to understand here is How Rafale will fare considering its still an expensive plane when we come down to the same analysis.

cost of life cycle, compared against, cost for upgrades, maintainance, and mostly the life of the plane, then cost runs parallaly with everything.
and cost v/s availablity, present v/s future costs. Though it is difficult to predict that now, but this will help us get close to know who can be the closest when it comes to MRCA winner.
 
.
Yes, what you are pointing out here is cost v/s availablity, present v/s future costs.

Now, My point is if we ever have to consider cost V/s tech i think cost will play a major role in deciding who is going to be the winner.

Not neccesarily, because you will compare the fighters on tech requirements first and only those who will fulfill them will be compared on price too. As I said, if there is such a T/W requirement as some reports said, the SH does not fulfill it and therefore the cost-effectiveness doesn't matter anymore.


So whatever price they are offered the same or even lower saying this is a much bigger deal and Indian production prices will be on offer to us. So if $78 million for a Rafale for Brazil may become $ 72-73 for India.

Yes, that's why I also keep trying to get infos from there, but not only the licence production will make a difference, the number of fighters will be a big difference too. It will be interesting to see how much Brazil will pay at the end and then we might be able to translate it for a possible deal in India too.


As this will reduce the logistical challenge for IAF. cosz they will maintain 200 LCAs and 126 F-18 with ease. and the same comes to Gripen too...So that saves cost here.

By the same logic, Rafale is a good option for another 80 fighters for SFC and IN too, moreover, if we can integrate Kaveri - Snema engine, it will have common engines with AMCA too! So126 + 40 + 40 + around 250 AMCA that are planed, which means over 900 indigenous engines, not to mention that there is an option for 74 more MMRCAs! Again what is more cost-effective for us? Investing in an licence produced foreign engine, or investing in an indigenous engine? We have to pay for the Kaveri developments anyway and it would be nuts to not use the engine on Rafale, but wait till 2022 for AMCA serial production to start.


and GE no where mentioned about additional pricing for EPE or EDE for LCA engine bid and deal price was still lower.

The EPE is not funded, GE is searching for an export customer to start the development for it, which means additional costs. So far there is not a single proof that LCA get more thrust than the normal GE 414, I searched for a reliable source about it too, but we have to wait till the contract is signed by next year I guess to get the details. Lower than what?


What I am trying to understand here is How Rafale will fare considering its still an expensive plane when we come down to the same analysis.

cost of life cycle, compared against, cost for upgrades, maintainance, and mostly the life of the plane, then cost runs parallaly with everything.
and cost v/s availablity, present v/s future costs. Though it is difficult to predict that now, but this will help us get close to know who can be the closest when it comes to MRCA winner.

As I said, Rafale is more costly but offers more in return, the F18SH needs more changes to make it equal, especially when we consider the service life of 30 - 40 years, where a modern designed fighter like the Rafale simply offer more future potential.
However, I don't think that this will help us at all, because all we can do is take a guess on the requirements and speculate. For me the shortlistings will be interesting and might give a guess on what the deal really is about.
 
.
...and talking of Brazil, Boeing is making a desperate attempt to win the competition by offering production of F18SH parts for all SH in Brazil, as well as to team up with Embraer on KC 390:

SAO PAULO — Boeing is offering to partner with Brazil's Embraer on a new fighter jet, in an effort to strengthen its bid for a multi-billion-dollar Brazilian defense contract, the US manufacturer said in a report Monday.
Joseph McAndrew, Boeing's vice president for Europe, Israel and America, told business publication Valor that the firm proposed 10 partnership projects with Brazil's aviation leader, including building a new plant in the country to build parts for Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet.
[...]
Valor reported that Boeing offered Embraer assembly of the F/A-18, as well as manufacture of the nose, wings and tail.
"Never before has Boeing offered such a broad, clear package of technology transfer dedicated to Brazil," McAndrew told the journal.
"All elements of the US government that could veto such a transfer signed a pledge saying they will not veto it. Both Congress and the Defense Department," he said.

Rafale News


Very interesting news, because on the one side in confirms what I said before, that the US might offer only ToT of non critical parts, like these airframe parts and the "assembly" of critical abroad only.
On the other side, that exactly these parts were rumored for India, so if Brazil suddenly turns to the US, what would be left for us?
However, I think the partnership offer at KC 390 is way more interesting for them, because it opens a chance on the US market. Sooner or later the US forces have to replace older C130 aircrafts and the KC 390 would be a good alternative. Saab and Dassault had offered partnerships too and France would even buy 12 of them, but the US might order way bigger numbers.
 
.
...and talking of Brazil, Boeing is making a desperate attempt to win the competition by offering production of F18SH parts for all SH in Brazil, as well as to team up with Embraer on KC 390:

I wouldn't say Boeing is desperate, 36 orders hardly makes a dent in Boeing revenues.

Speaking of Brazil, according to rumors emanating from Brazil,
it is alleged that two Rafale's were killed by old Brazillian F-5M's. Also interesting that the Brazilian's complained the Rafale lacked power. A bit embarrassing for the French if this is true, I wonder if this impacts the Rafale's chances in Brazil, perhaps not considering Rafale is strongly supported by Jobin and Lula.

Again, these are internet rumors but the engine lacking power is consistent with what was reported by the Emirati's.

Google translated
Well I have heard rumors, RUMORS repeat, the only 100% proven is that the only participant who performed all scheduled departures were the F-16 BL 50 Chileans.

Again, the BL 50 BRV always fought with silence radar and using the AIDWS (EW) were able to complete missions without activating their radars, in fact on one occasion, an aircraft carried out a ground attack without being detected.

The villains of the film F-5BR achieved several successful battles, especially that brought down 2 Rafale
, one of these using Python IV, a type of weapon without the French.

The Rafale's performance was far below expectations, especially mounted and acceleration in a tropical environment, the maneuverings of Mirage 2000 and F-16 were considered superior, I leave the FAB worried and FX-2 program

It is the first time that U.S. F-16 used in maneuvers in the continent with the AIM-9X achieving good results.

The Gringos were more than satisfied with the use of KC-135 in Chile, who acted together with him and supplied the F-16 of both air forces.

In conclusion it comes to the FACH used in missions Derby BRV and no AMRAAM and achieved great success rate.

There are other things, but when you have confirmation of at least 2 additional sources, the purblicare.

Cruzex v - Página 27 - AviaciónArgentina.net

PhotoHandler.ashx

The Rafale apparently has trouble with legacy fighters the above German Phantom accounted for five Rafale's during Frisian Flag 2008.

Rafale Eater ....cute :D
 
Last edited:
.
UK shows support to Eurofighter Typhoon for Indian Air Force MMRCA contract


Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Cassidian Air Systems, said ” We are grateful for the visit of the UK Secretary of State for Defence in our Delhi Office and his encouraging messages to further intensify our campaign activities. Our Governments in the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain and Italy are strongly supporting the Eurofighter Typhoon campaign in India. Europe’s leading aerospace and defence companies are ready to enhance their industrial cooperation with India’s advanced defence industry for the benefit of all parties. Our goal is to integrate India into the global supply chain of the Eurofighter Typhoon by developing a strong and diverse supplier base in India which will also cater to this global programme.”
The consortium members will also provide India access to key technologies in a unique industrial partnership designed to further catalyze India’s indigenous defence sector.
During a recent meeting of the Eurofighter Supervisory Board in New Delhi, senior representatives of EADS (Germany and Spain), BAE Systems (United Kingdom) and Finmeccanica (Italy) highlighted their combined commitment to develop a long-term strategic relationship with India and establish a new bnchmark for Europe’s defence and industrial cooperation with Indian defence and aerospace companies.

More at *****************
 
.
I wouldn't say Boeing is desperate, 36 orders hardly makes a dent in Boeing revenues.

Desperate, because it was obvious that the deal is going to Rafale, or Gripen and the SH has no real chance there and even 36 SH would make Brazil to the biggest export customer, not to mention that the deal could go up to 100.


Speaking of Brazil, according to rumors emanating from Brazil...
...Again, these are internet rumors but the engine lacking power is consistent with what was reported by the Emirati's.

Please:

a forum "friend" provides
Very reliable :disagree:

And once again, there is no issue with the thrust, especially not in A2A combats what ATLC proved! UAE wants more thrust because they want to use higher loads, that's also why the F18SH Block 2 can never be an opponent for Rafale in UAE, because it lacks way behind Rafale in this field. That's nothing but PR to put pressure on the French and according to the latest reports about that deal, the issue is not even the fighter at all, but the clearance for UAE airlines to get more flights to France, what would be a problem for Air France.


PhotoHandler.ashx

The Rafale apparently has trouble with legacy fighters the above German Phantom accounted for five Rafale's during Frisian Flag 2008.

Rafale Eater ....cute :D

The funny thing about the picture is, that it actually shows a EF, not a Rafale (canards besides the nose, not the air intakes!). :D
 
.
The funny thing about the picture is, that it actually shows a EF, not a Rafale (canards besides the nose, not the air intakes!). :D

..his old Phantom took out five Rafale's, I'm willing to pardon his drawing skills :) "Rafale eater"...don't ya just love it :smitten:

What do you make of the interview in Brazil in which Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers said Rafale's AESA radar would not be in service until 2017 :eek: and Meteor in 2018? Oh!I didn't realize the Meteor was co-developed by the US :eek: so much for sanction proof Rafale :blink:

AIR POWER: We have not seen here in the Damocles CRUZEX the Rafale. It is fully integrated into the Rafale? We come from many sources that he was not yet ready to operate, is this true?

Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers - Deixe-me dizer.
Let me tell you. The French Navy has Damocles, because they bought it and there it is fully integrated. The French Air Force should buy the pods at the beginning of next year, but we need when we get the pods of the Navy and put in our aircraft...


AIR POWER: When placed into service the new AESA radar for the Rafale?

Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers -
On paper it is scheduled for 2017.


AIR POWER: And the Meteor?

Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers
- The Meteor missile is an international, done jointly with the U.S., with the Eurofighter and the community with Sweden. He has done testing of fire and due to enter service around 2018, almost together with the new AESA radar..

CRUZEX V: Entrevista com o Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil
 
.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom