Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Hi Sancho -

I dont see the French lobying hard for Rafale these days, even before while others a pitching too hard, including EF.
Mind that EF is pitching despite getting export customers (confirrmed) are trying level best to catch a deal with us, while French are just not seem to do nothing.

What couldd bee the reason?, are the very confident or they think Brazil is more important than India.

I talked with Benny recently about it too:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1253019-post3225.html


Generally one can say, those who have the less good product/the less chances, will also make more PR. EF Consortium and Saab are really desperate for a foreign customer, LM just tries the minimum, because they know that they have only limited chances and are concentrating on F35 anyway (which is badly needed!), Boeing for example advertise way less for F18SH, than for other products of them (P8, C17, recently CH47) and Dassault as I said focus mainly on convincing IAF/IN/MoD/GoI and not the public at the moment (womder what Sarkozy will offer when he will arrive in some weeks).

I hope things will change when the Brazilian competition is done and that the French will send their Rafales to Aero India 2011, because they have their carrier here in that time anyway.


Talking of EF consortium, there are rumors that UK sold 24 EFs to Oman for a systemcost of around $93 million each, but it is not confirmed so far and nobody knows if they are new, or used once.
However, that also shows the financial situation of the EF partners, because either they reduce their original orders (what still costs them penalty), or like in this case, try to sell those fighters to other countries. The UK did the same with EFs for Saudi Arabia, most of the Austrian fighters were used German Luftwaffe fighters and they try to sell Greece some EFs too. The fact that the partner countries can't even keep their own orders, should tell us something about fundings for upgrades, or integrations of weapon and techs in future. That's why they need India and why they are pushing so hard!

Imo the GE engine deal for Tejas was the kill for EF in MMRCA, because it would have reduced the costs of EF to produce the engine under licence for both fighters and further developments would have been possible too. Now EF still remains the most expensive fighter, with confirmed delays in the development of T3, limited available weapons and no versions for SFC, or IN.

 

[dbc]

I talked with Benny recently about it too:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1253019-post3225.html


Generally one can say, those who have the less good product/the less chances, will also make more PR. EF Consortium and Saab are really desperate for a foreign customer, LM just tries the minimum, because they know that they have only limited chances and are concentrating on F35 anyway (which is badly needed!), Boeing for example advertise way less for F18SH, than for other products of them (P8, C17, recently CH47) and Dassault as I said focus mainly on convincing IAF/IN/MoD/GoI and not the public at the moment (womder what Sarkozy will offer when he will arrive in some weeks).

I hope things will change when the Brazilian competition is done and that the French will send their Rafales to Aero India 2011, because they have their carrier here in that time anyway.


Talking of EF consortium, there are rumors that UK sold 24 EFs to Oman for a systemcost of around $93 million each, but it is not confirmed so far and nobody knows if they are new, or used once.
However, that also shows the financial situation of the EF partners, because either they reduce their original orders (what still costs them penalty), or like in this case, try to sell those fighters to other countries. The UK did the same with EFs for Saudi Arabia, most of the Austrian fighters were used German Luftwaffe fighters and they try to sell Greece some EFs too. The fact that the partner countries can't even keep their own orders, should tell us something about fundings for upgrades, or integrations of weapon and techs in future. That's why they need India and why they are pushing so hard!

Imo the GE engine deal for Tejas was the kill for EF in MMRCA, because it would have reduced the costs of EF to produce the engine under licence for both fighters and further developments would have been possible too. Now EF still remains the most expensive fighter, with confirmed delays in the development of T3, limited available weapons and no versions for SFC, or IN.

..and the French are selling land and wireless frequencies to finance the latest batch of eleven Rafale's - what's your point?

 

[sancho]

The only tender they can win is the Brazil one at the moment unless Sarkozy makes India a deal it can not say no to when he arrives, the rafale does not have a single export order so far.

And still has comparable orders like Saab with its normal Gripen, 60 of them even in the F3+ version that is on offer for MMRCA, while Gripen NG, or Mig 35 has no orders at all! F16 B60 has only the 80 orders from UAE and even the SH has hardly achieved any exports. So this isn't really an argument!
The only difference exports will make to Rafale are reducing the costs, because parts of the R&D, or further upgrades costs will be paid from other customers too. The fact that the French are ordering and upgrading the Rafale continuously, tells us much more about the future of that project.

..and the French are selling land and wireless frequencies to finance the latest batch of eleven Rafale's - what's your point?

The point is that IAF searches for a fighter that will be in service for 30 to 40 years, so must be capable in future too! While the EF partners already struggle to fund upgrade and keep their orders, the French did not reduced a single order so far (just like the didn't in A400, where the UK and Germany made cuts) and are upgrading their fighters and funding new development. They will replace all fighters with Rafale and that gives us the security to get a fighter with a good future in the expected life cylce too, something that only Dassault and Boeing can offer imo!

 

[razgriz19]

A very darn good documentary on typhoon!!!
it shows its multirole capability!

YouTube - Eurofighter Typhoon - Heir to a century of UK airpower

 

[the rafter]

The latest article posted on pakobserver.net (most likely is untrue) says that

Secret negotiations have been underway for the purchase of 126 F-18 Hornets from Boeing aircraft. The estimated cost is $3.78 billion dollars with spares.

Sounds like a spicy gossip to re-kindle the MMRCA debate.

Expansion of Indian Air Force

 

[MAFIAN GOD]

^^^^
126 F-18 Super Hornets at $3.78 Billion with spares.

ORDER ANOTHER 126 ASAP.



That news is so untrue.

 

[GORKHALI]

LAGO RAHO MUNNABHAI heheheh i think he missed so many things like deployment of mig 29 in north east,then hype about C17 then about 3.76 billon dollar deal thats also secret lol and thats also with spares

 

[prototype]

The point is that IAF searches for a fighter that will be in service for 30 to 40 years, so must be capable in future too! While the EF partners already struggle to fund upgrade and keep their orders, the French did not reduced a single order so far (just like the didn't in A400, where the UK and Germany made cuts) and are upgrading their fighters and funding new development. They will replace all fighters with Rafale and that gives us the security to get a fighter with a good future in the expected life cylce too, something that only Dassault and Boeing can offer imo!

So what every fighter can serve as for that time period,compared to EFT how many Rafales had been rolled out so far,if funding is the issue,they just get one more member with huge cash flow if we decide on EFT,their r no takers for Rafale untill now,so even we cannot expect a price cut.

 

[sancho]

So what every fighter can serve as for that time period,compared to EFT how many Rafales had been rolled out so far,if funding is the issue,they just get one more member with huge cash flow if we decide on EFT,their r no takers for Rafale untill now,so even we cannot expect a price cut.

Not only funding, also time till all the new upgrades are cleared of all members (which is difficult enough as we see with T3), time for the developments beeing done, testet and integrated and time till these new techs will mature in operational service. Take the AESA radar as an example!

- in 2008, or 09 the parters agreed to go to T3, but it was not decided what new techs and capabilities will be involved
- in 2010 the consortium companies said they start development of AESA and prefund it, because they can't wait any longer till the partner countries decides to go for it and fund it
- AESA is planed (hoped) to be operational in 2015 and that only if the funding will be cleared and the development goes through without problems
- MMRCA requires first squad build by winning vendor in 2014, but EF will start production only in 2015, which will also delay the licence production in India (as if we don't have enough delays with LCA)

And all this is unclear, unsure, not fixed...only in regard to the AESA radar! All the other things that must be cleared in regard to the Tranche 3 are even more unsure, because the partners have no clue what to develop, what to fund and how to pay all the costs.

Personally I can imagine an EF with AESA, CFTs, 3D TVC, with 4 x Meteor on semi stealth weapon pods, with only the SR missiles at the wings, what reduces the RCS even more and adds range. Latest avionics and passive detection features, integrated A2G missiles as well as JDAM, or SDB, as I often said it would be a hell of a fighter. But IAF can't rely on imagination only in such a dangerous neighborhood! We need fighters that are operational and ready whenn we induct, especially if we really consider such high costs like the EF would mean.

That is the same reason why the EF was rejected and not shortlisted in several competitions, because it still offer not enough in return for the high costs. In A2A it is clearly one of the best, or the best, in A2G the exact opposite, as sad it is.


An older report about EF and T3:

The Half-Full, Half-Empty Eurofighter Glass, Too

Tranche 3 will come with none improvements and advanced features.
Contract covers but aircraft to the Tranche 2 standard...

...And now, after much hesitation, bickering and not-so-well concealed attempts at cutting and running if only one could blame the others for this, the Tranche 3 contract (officially half-tranche, 3A) has finally been signed.

It is pretty obvious that unless WW3 descends upon us, this will in all likelihood be the last order by the four member countries, and there will be no Tranche 3B contract. This, however, is only too logical, given the radical evolution of the strategic scenarios, and the drastic reductions in defence spending since the Eurofighter programme was originally launched. If the United States thinks it can do with 183 F-22s, it is quite difficult to maintain that, say, Germany needs the same number of Eurofighters. If production is to continue beyond the 3A order, it would have to depend completely on export.

The really disturbing point, however, is that despite rather oblique attempts (not by industry) to conceal by truth by mentioning phantasmagoric multi-role capabilities, it is painfully evident that the €9 billion contract covers but aircraft to the Tranche 2 standard – i.e., absolutely identical to those currently being delivered.

None of the improvements and advanced features that were expected to be introduced with the Tranche 3 standard, and which the Eurofighter desperately needs in order to both adapt itself to the evolving operational scenarios and remain competitive on the export market, will actually be implemented.

There will be no AESA radar, no conformal fuel tanks, no TVC nozzles, no integration of weapons such as Meteor, Storm Shadow or Taurus – NOTHING. The aircraft will be fitted with electrical systems and interfaces to allow for the possible future integration of new weapons and electronic systems through retrofit programmes, but this is projected into a vague future.

One may speculate as to whether this is the tragic result of the Air Forces being absolutely unable to find the money for the aircraft they want, or rather having lost faith in the industry’s development and management skill, or possibly a combination of both factors.

Be this as it may, the unpalatable conclusion is that development of the Eurofighter is effectively terminated at Tranche 2 standard level. The aircraft’s development potential toward a true multi-role configuration is being thrown away.

defence.professionals | defpro.com


An that is the reality even today! As long as they don't fix the upgrade and we have no clear idea when all the proposed things really will be available, EF can't be a good choice for us, but time is runing and they know it well. It's not surprising that exactly now so many articles comes up in those partner countries and that the EF consortium is doing as much PR as possible. Although they don't say any new point and mainly sum up older articles.

 

[MAFIAN GOD]

@sancho
does Rafale has fully operational AESA like F-16 and F-18?

 

[sancho]

@sancho
does Rafale has fully operational AESA like F-16 and F-18?

Ready developed, operational from 2012 onwards, for the 60 x Rafale F3+ for the French forces.

 

[dbc]

A very darn good documentary on typhoon!!!
it shows its multirole capability!

YouTube - Eurofighter Typhoon - Heir to a century of UK airpower

Recall my comments about delta canards and the CG(Center of Gravity) sensitivity of such designs, notice the aircraft instability caused by release of the center line LGB @2:30 in slow level flight. Observe the main target structure is still intact post impact and detonation, the target survived.
Now imagine the instability that the release of a LGB closer to the wingtip (further from its longitudinal axis) at higher speeds can cause in such designs.

 

[the rafter]

Britain to discuss Eurofighter bid for IAF deal
London: The Eurofighter Typhoon consortium is to offer India the technological blueprint of its jets in a bid to secure a whopping 7.1-billion-pound contract to sell 126 combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force.

Britain's Defence Secretary Liam Fox will take up the issue with Indian authorities in Delhi in the next couple of days during his visit there.

According to 'The Sunday Times', Fox's meetings with Defence Minister AK Antony tomorrow and on Tuesday will mark another chapter in the intense lobbying of the Indian government for the 7.1 billion-pound contract.

Fox's visit, the first of a British defence secretary in six years, has been described as "pivotal" as the debate on the jet deal shifts from a technical to a more political phase.

The Typhoon received a boost in the race for the biggest defence deal in India's history after it was ranked in the top two of the Indian Air Force's technical trials of all six bidding aircraft, which included America's F-16 and F-18 and Sweden's Gripen, the paper said.

The report quoted Andrew Gallagher, chief executive of BAE Systems India, as saying that the deal being offered toIndia would bring New Delhi in as a full "fifth partner", including the transfer of full technical sovereignty, access to computer source codes and the objective of making the entire aircraft in Indian factories.

Fox will be followed over the next couple of months by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and French leader Nicolas Sarkozy.

They will be pushing Delhi to opt, respectively, for MiG-35 and Dassault Aviation's Rafale when the decision is made next year, the report said.

PTI

Link: Fox`s India trip: Eurofighter bid for IAF deal to be discussed

 

[the rafter]

UK readies defence pitch
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
New Delhi, Nov. 20: The British defence secretary is set to kick off a series of high-profile military exchanges with India beginning next week even as the defence ministry heads towards a “downselect” of combat aircraft for a $12-billion order.

Sweden’s defence minister is expected in December, to prop up Swedish firm SAAB’s bid with its Gripen fighter aircraft. French President Nicholas Sarkozy and Russian President Dimitry Medvedev are also slated to visit India in the same month.

A downselect from the six aircraft in the fray is likely only around February. The competing aircraft are the F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-16 Super Viper (Boeing and Lockheed Martin, both of the US), the Russian MiG-35, the Dassault Aviation’s Rafale (France), Sweden’s Gripen, and European Consortium EADS’ Eurofighter Typhoon that is being promoted in India by Germany and the UK.

British defence secretary Liam Fox is scheduled to visit Delhi on Monday and Tuesday “to take forward the broad-based cooperation in the defence sector envisaged by the Prime Ministers of the two countries at their meeting earlier this year”, a UK high commission statement said today.

He will also visit Cassidian’s Delhi office to discuss and promote the Eurofighter Typhoon’s bid. Cassidian is the new name of the defence and security division of EADS.

EADS has been promoting the Typhoon as not only a state-of-the-art aircraft but also suggesting a “partnership” that will bolster India’s diplomatic ties with the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy.

The statement said that together with Indian defence minister A.K. Antony, Fox “will provide senior political leadership to the bilateral defence relationship. This will ensure that the defence aspects of the new UK-India enhanced partnership play their rightful, central role”.

Link: The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | UK readies defence pitch

 

[Hulk]

My gut feeling says that IAF feels US aircraft's maybe F18 is the best but they are waiting for some relaxation from US government on these clauses.