Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

It takes 5 years to master "any' winner of the MRCA. Better master the one which enemy has.

Not really, because PAF it will make it only easier for PAF, because they know that fighter better than we do. If we get a new fighter instead, we can master it in 5 years, if you want, but PAF has to build complete new counter tactics, which are based on estimations, but not on actual experience. Not to mention that F16 B52 and F16IN will use even the same weapons, so no advantage their either, while Eurocanards offer latest missiles combos!
Also don't forget that MMRCAs will be deployed mainly against PLAAF and they have more more capable fighters than PAFs F16s and will the F16 IN have an edge against J10Bs? I have my doubts!

We dont need 100% TOT for F-16s. We just need the things we need to know.

We already have AESA radar And all in the making.

No offense, but is this an argument? You do know that we are asking for more ToT than it is usual in such deals right? So the more ToT we can get from latest techs (not only airframe parts), the higher the use for us and the preferable!

So what??? let them have the source codes with them.

And ask them anytime we want to reconfig the radars for a mission? Why should IAF makes itself so dependent if they have several options with source codes?

Nobody has any doubt about the capabilities and orders will keep the production line open and we can even convince them to move the production line to India.

Ofcourse the winner will serve till 2050 or more so does F-16s.

The only F16 that could be in service for that long and needs higher upgrades, are the UAE Block 60s (80 in numbers). All other F16 operators will phase out them way earlier and some new operators that bought B52s, will get upgrades from B60, or IN. This obviously mean that there are only 2 customers that needs further upgrades and who will pay for them? UAE is likely to just sell their F16s if they can get F35s, way before their live comes to the end, but IAF isn't, especially not in the estimated numbers.
The future of F16 is for sure more than limited and if we want to keep these MMRCAs in service for up to 40 years, they have to offer not only latest designs, but upgrade potential too!

The F16 was a good fighter and got good upgrades too, but it's life is
over and with our potential opponents in mind, it don't offer enough advanatges.

 

[!!craft!!]

man i am bored now ..i dont understand how certain members can discuss this crap for five years..just imagine what would happen if our babus say that ''none of these aircrafts a fit for the airforce requirement lets start the contract again''...

 

[gurjot]

man i am bored now ..i dont understand how certain members can discuss this crap for five years..just imagine what would happen if our babus say that ''none of these aircrafts a fit for the airforce requirement lets start the contract again''...

iaf should throw flying coffins on there residences if they start new trials.

 

[Trisonics]

Decision on multi-billion fighter plane deal may be political

New Delhi: India is now closer to finalising a USD 10 billion contract for 126 fighter aircraft with IAF submitting a report on the flight evaluation of six contenders for the 'mother of all deals', though top sources Thursday said the decision could be "political".

"We have submitted a voluminous report on the performance of the six bidding aircraft for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract. The report is yet to be approved by the Defence Ministry. The performance, cost and political considerations will all be factors in deciding the winning bid," IAF sources said here.

Mission objectives for the aircraft, national security considerations and international relations were cited by the sources as the "political factors" that could determine which way the contract would go.

With the Flight Evaluation Trial (FET) report of the six aircraft in the fray finalised, the Defence Ministry will soon open the commercial bids of the six global fighter jet manufacturers to identify the lowest bid.

American Lockheed Martin F-16IN and Boeing F/A-18, French D'Assault Rafale, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoons, Swedish SAAB Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the fray for the contract for which a tender was floated in August 2007.

"We have gone exactly according to the Request for Proposals (RFP) and have set 643 parameters or Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) which the aircraft were evaluated against for compliance. We have submitted an objective report on the compliance and non-compliance of the six aircraft," the sources said.

The sources made it clear that the IAF had not created a "merit list" and had only given its reports evaluating each of the aircraft against the ASQRs.

"The process of FET has been so rigorous and meticulous that the trial methodology and report is probably the best in the world and could be a model for other Air Forces for conducting their FETs for their contracts," the sources said.

Noting that none of the aircraft had complied fully with all the parameters set by the IAF, they said there were "varying degrees of compliance and non-compliance" by each of the contenders for the mega deal, estimated to be worth Rs 4,700 crore in Indian currency.

They also refused to comment on the aircraft's suitability for the IAF, but said, "all platforms are top of the line aircraft."

To a query if more number of MMRCA, over and above the 126 stated in the current bids, could be ordered, the sources said the option of going in for an additional number was part of the tender documents, though a decision would be taken on it only after the current deal was through.

PTI

Decision on multi-billion fighter plane deal may be political

 

[Trisonics]

another report

Indian Fighter Downselect Coming

With flight trials complete, the downselect process has begun for the six candidate fighters in India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, a competition with a $10 billion-plus payday for providing 126 aircraft.

Opinions vary widely among observers on how long it will take to narrow the field to two finalists from among the MiG-35, Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin F-16.

Some speculate an announcement might come in just two weeks. Others insist it will take much longer to evaluate the extensive technical reports that the tests have produced. Regardless, a commercial bidding process will follow the announcement. Final selection is to be made by the end of 2011.

Trials included 643 test points. Results are being forwarded as tabulated data without a quantification of the level of compliance achieved, a senior Indian air force official reports. “We have done an objective assessment and are taking into account the needs of national security,” he says. But cost and politics will play a role in the defense ministry’s selection, he acknowledges.

French President Sarkozy’s visit to India this year is expected to be followed by a host of inducements, including a large transfer of technology, on behalf of the Rafale.

India has yet to sign the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement with the U.S. that sets limits on what sensitive technology the U.S. will export. It may be signed during President Barack Obama’s scheduled visit to India in November.

Beyond informal briefings said to already have taken place, the six manufacturers are to receive a 250-page technical evaluation of how they did. Problems during the trials included the failures of engines and large electromechanical actuation systems.

Meanwhile, the defense ministry has revealed that it will buy 42 more Su-30MKI fighters, with deliveries to unfold between 2014-2018 (Aerospace DAILY, Aug. 11). The $4.3 billion deal, which will run through Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., is a top-up order that is to bring the Indian Su-30 inventory to more than 250 aircraft and the number of HAL-assembled versions to close to 200 fighters.

Talks continue with Russia about joint development of the T-50 (or PAK-FA), a fifth-generation fighter developed by Sukhoi. The program is valued at $8 billion. Whether those talks will work to the advantage of the MiG-35 MMRCA fighter candidate is unclear.

 

[gurjot]

to how many countries india will offer mrca.
u.s obama is cming,sarkozy is coming,cameron just reached the england.
who is left .......putin.

 

[lemurian]

wow! Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" in practice. Soon every newspaper and magazine in India will come up with their list until the public gets bored...

 

[ARCHON]

Gripens new adv.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Attention Please...

Going by the needs Rafale n SH seem to be the best.. The closest alternatives to Mirage V..


Can IAF shift the AC Roles ?

I wanna ask the respected members.. Can IAF shift the role of Air dominance to Typhoon while filling the multi role A2G.. Needs by the MKIs??

So.. In 2025..

Some 50 Top of the like PAK FA
126-200 Typhoon Not for A2G but Air dominance
280 MKI for primarily A2G..
60 Mirage 2000 Upgraded again A2G
Mig 29 SMTs n LCAs as Interceptors...

The thing is Typhoon is a close 5th gen AC... With poor A2G capability... But it will shive our neighbours.. More than any aircraft...

Comments awaited...

 

[Dark Angel]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Good one mate i have pitched for EF all the way and would be happiest if it wins cause there is nothing comes close to it just like in its promotional video

 

[flanker143]

Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"

Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, the Indian Air Force will have the option of adding evolutionary technologies to the platform within this decade on an incremental basis starting 2015. Funded by the US Navy and developed by Boeing, the roadmap on offer allows for the planned insertion of maturing technologies over time. Boeing says this would give the IAF flexibility over the years if they want to insert/ integrate the following new technologies:
Enhanced Performance Engine
Next-generation cockpit
Missile laser warning
Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)
Conformal fuel tanks
Enclosed weapons pod
Designed-in stealth
Future survivability technology that will "make the Block II Super Hornet harder to detect, harder to hit, and harder to kill"
According to a note that Boeing sent over, "While India is getting Block II of the Super Hornet, the International Super Hornet roadmap gives India the choice of considerable growth potential. India will be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could potentially enhance future Indian Super Hornets. The design and growth of the Super Hornet has been done keeping a 40 year life span during which the aircraft remains combat proven."

 

[anathema]

Attention Please...

Going by the needs Rafale n SH seem to be the best.. The closest alternatives to Mirage V..


Can IAF shift the AC Roles ?

I wanna ask the respected members.. Can IAF shift the role of Air dominance to Typhoon while filling the multi role A2G.. Needs by the MKIs??

So.. In 2025..

Some 50 Top of the like PAK FA
126-200 Typhoon Not for A2G but Air dominance
280 MKI for primarily A2G..
60 Mirage 2000 Upgraded again A2G
Mig 29 SMTs n LCAs as Interceptors...

The thing is Typhoon is a close 5th gen AC... With poor A2G capability... But it will shive our neighbours.. More than any aircraft...

Comments awaited...

Xinx --

Yes Typhoon can be used in Air Dominance role. But if selected in MRCA Air Dominance or superiority will not be its primary mission. why ?
Because IAF has invested significant time and effort of more than 1 decade of devising of Air Dominance strategy for Su 30 MKI. The strategies and weakness have been horned and learned after years of playing around with a/c and participating in the international excercises. So pretty much they will not go through the learning curve again to make it a dedicated A2G role fighter. Su 30 can do it when needed but it wont be its primary mission -- and this is precisely where Typhoon falls apart - it lacks in A2G.

 

[Dash]

Guys..
There is something you must read here. I hope our politicians in MRCA and burocrats play it safe.

just FYI....not directly related to MRCA but indirectly.

Federal Bureau of Investigation - The Washington Field Office: Department of Justice Press Release

 

[anathema]

Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"

Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, the Indian Air Force will have the option of adding evolutionary technologies to the platform within this decade on an incremental basis starting 2015. Funded by the US Navy and developed by Boeing, the roadmap on offer allows for the planned insertion of maturing technologies over time. Boeing says this would give the IAF flexibility over the years if they want to insert/ integrate the following new technologies:
Enhanced Performance Engine
Next-generation cockpit
Missile laser warning
Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)
Conformal fuel tanks
Enclosed weapons pod
Designed-in stealth
Future survivability technology that will "make the Block II Super Hornet harder to detect, harder to hit, and harder to kill"
According to a note that Boeing sent over, "While India is getting Block II of the Super Hornet, the International Super Hornet roadmap gives India the choice of considerable growth potential. India will be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could potentially enhance future Indian Super Hornets. The design and growth of the Super Hornet has been done keeping a 40 year life span during which the aircraft remains combat proven."

ouuchh...thats a sucker punch by Boeing...If they can convince IAF about these capabilities and give a definite plan ...then SH stands a great chance.

 

[sancho]

Attention Please...

Going by the needs Rafale n SH seem to be the best.. The closest alternatives to Mirage V..


Can IAF shift the AC Roles ?

I wanna ask the respected members.. Can IAF shift the role of Air dominance to Typhoon while filling the multi role A2G.. Needs by the MKIs??

So.. In 2025..

Some 50 Top of the like PAK FA
126-200 Typhoon Not for A2G but Air dominance
280 MKI for primarily A2G..
60 Mirage 2000 Upgraded again A2G
Mig 29 SMTs n LCAs as Interceptors...

The thing is Typhoon is a close 5th gen AC... With poor A2G capability... But it will shive our neighbours.. More than any aircraft...

Comments awaited...

Besides the points that anathema provided, by 2025 even the EF should be fully developed and should offer better A2A and A2G capabilities than the MKI. Not to forget that by that time IAF hopefully will habe some Pak Fa / FGFA for air superiority too, so besides them and MKI, there is no need for another air superiority fighter. That leaves A2G only for the EF and by then it could be useful for that role too, but what will IAF have in between (2015 - 2025)? In the aimed A2G roles only 50 upgraded Mirage 2000-5 and upgraded, but still old and limited capable Jaguars.

MKI is a good strike fighter too, but mainly for heavy strikes when air superiority is already achieved, or from distance with A2G missiles. To enter enemy air space in preemptive strike missions will be very difficult for it, because of the big RCS and the fact that our opponents now have AWACS support too. So imo, in the timeframe you pointed out, MKI should remain the workhorse in air superiority with the first Pak Fa / FGFA above it and a second day strike fighter if you want. MMRCA instead should take over the air defense roles of Mig 29 and M2k (which will be phased out by then too), but more over the strike role of Mk2 and Jags from 2015 onwards. Which means it should offer good A2G capabilities now and also enough potential for a long time in service. The F16IN would offer a good strike capability too, but I have big doubts about its future potential, so I agree Rafale and F18SH suits IAF at best.