Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[dbc]

Actually it is said, but I expected exactly this! I really liked your posts in the past, because they were often were very informative, but the recent discussions that we had showed me, that you are biased towards US arms and techs!

The part that you quoted and that I expected, is talking about the F18 Hornet, not the Super Hornet that is offered in MMRCA!
The Hornet has a T/W above 1 unlike the Super Hornet, as well as a lower wing load and as I showed you in my last post, that improves climb and turn rates, so manoeuverability.
So even the older F18 Hornet versions are more manoeuverable than the actual Super Hornet, let alone new fighter designs like the EF, or Rafale for example.
All you proved is, that you again claim wrong things and keep on with them, while completely ignoring the points I made in my posts, so a furhter discussion really makes no sence.
The fact remains, the F18 Super Hornet has one of the lowest T/W ratios and one of the highest wing loads in the competition!

It's extremely amusing you think the Hornet's capabilities diminished and the Super Hornet is less maneuverable than the original Hornet.
I guess we really screwed up by calling it "Super Hornet"

The F18SH is good in BVR and strikes, in WVR combats it depends on its techs and weapons, but can't point with flight performance.

Go on sir I have no wish to cure you of your ignorance.
For the rest, here is an article published by Flight International. This should debunk the poor maneuverability nonsense some members have been peddling.

Extraordinary at high AOA
At M0.84, we climbed at an average rate of 12,500ft/min, and quickly reached an altitude of 25,000ft over Death Valley. Once level, I pulled the throttles to idle to set up for slow flight. At 260kt indicated, I selected "speedbrake" to aid deceleration. Unlike most aircraft, the Super Hornet does not have a dedicated speedbrake. The speedbrake function is performed by deflection of various control surfaces, including spoilers and ailerons.
Although the system does not actively seek a constant deceleration rate, selected control surfaces are deflected more as airspeed decreases and hinge moment loads decrease. I found speedbrake operation to be totally transparent, at no time causing more than a slight variation in pitch attitude.
Speedbrake deselected, we slowed down in level flight. Light airframe buffet was present at 17° AoA (130kt), but was gone as AoA increased past 25°. At 30° AoA, I selected military power and captured 35° AoA. I was able to control AoA to within 1° as we descended wings level at 6,000ft/min and 105kt indicated. I put in partial right rudder, and the aircraft smoothly entered a 30° banked turn. After a 60 ° heading change, I released the rudder and reversed the turn direction using left lateral stick - I hesitate to say "aileron", because the E/F's flight control system (FCS) can use a number of different surfaces to perform the "aileron" function. I found control responsiveness in all three axes (pitch, roll and yaw) to be excellent, with no wing rock or yaw wandering tendencies.
With wings level, in an effort to demonstrate the E/F's resistance to departure from controlled flight, I simultaneously put in full right lateral stick and full left rudder. This abrupt cross-control input had no discernible effect, the aircraft remained rock steady at 35° AoA.
Next, I reduced the AoA to 30°, with the aircraft in a 25° nose-high pitch attitude. I rapidly pulled the stick to the full aft stop and held it there. The aircraft pitched to 45° nose up, an increase of 20° from the stabilised value, as the AoA peaked at 59°. This large pitch reserve, available at such a low airspeed, will be useful should the Super Hornet pilot find himself in a close-range visual fight.
The aircraft stabilised wings level at 48° AoA and 70kt indicated, in a full aft stick stall. Aircraft heading tended to oscillate ±3° from the steady heading at about 2Hz. Seeking to prevent a departure in the yaw axis, the FCS actively uses yaw rate feedback to keep the aircraft pointing forward. One benefit of this control scheme has been the elimination of the "falling leaf" departure mode present in the basic Hornet.
A full left rudder input rolled the aircraft into a 45° banked turn, with AoA stabilised at 45°. A stabilised yaw rate of 6.25°/s was attained, and I was able to control aircraft heading accurately. After levelling the wings, I moved the stick to the full forward stop to recover from the stall. The aircraft pitched over to 40° nose low at an impressive rate of 17°/s.
Next, we performed a full forward stick inverted stall. As was the case with the aft stick stall, the aircraft was extremely stable, attaining a steady state AoA of -32° at -1g.
The final high AoA manoeuvre we performed was a vertical recovery. A military power 4g pull to a vertical attitude started the event. Heading straight up at 100kt indicated, I selected maximum power. At this extreme condition, the digitally controlled engines, which have no pilot-observed limits, responded by smoothly lighting both afterburners. I started the recovery by pulling aft stick to bring the nose toward the horizon. The nose tracked smoothly downward, and I released the stick when the aircraft was in an inverted, 20° nose-low attitude. Without any pilot inputs, the aircraft slowly rolled upright and stabilised in a wings level 30° dive. It was as if the Super Hornet knew how to complete a recovery from an extremely low-speed vertical attitude.
Pirouette manoeuvre
Finally, we performed a pirouette manoeuvre. This is essentially the Hornet equivalent of a hammerhead turn - a slow-speed, nose-high to nose-low, yaw rate turn in the near-vertical plane. When first developed, the E/F was unable to perform this stock Hornet manoeuvre, but modifications to the yaw rate feedback schedule put this back into the repertoire.
In military power, I started the manoeuvre at 210kt and 13,000ft altitude by pulling the nose up. At 150kt in a 65° nose high attitude, using slight aft stick pressure to keep the AoA above 25°, I put in full left rudder and left lateral stick. To my amazement, the aircraft yawed smoothly 180° to the left, ending up in a nose-low attitude on a reciprocal heading. Recovery to level flight and 200kt completed the manoeuvre. The entire operation took less than 25s, yielding a turn rate of about 8°/s.
Area work complete, we turned to the west for our recovery to Lemoore. Flight control laws limit maximum roll rate to 225°/s in an air-to-air configuration, and 150°/s with wing-mounted fuel tanks or air-to-ground munitions. At 15,000ft, I performed full lateral stick rolls at 240kt and 360kt indicated. At both speeds, a 360° roll was complete in less than 2s.

During our cruise home, I was able to reflect on the Super Hornet's manoeuvrability. The second leading cause of Hornet losses in the US Navy has been departure from controlled flight. At all conditions, the flight control system had allowed me to manoeuvre the aircraft predictably without regard to airspeed or AoA. The Super Hornet's demonstrated departure resistance is exactly what "carefree" manoeuvrability is all about.

Extreme manoeuvres-11/07/2000-Flight International

 

[satishkumarcsc]

DBC...what engine was used in the aircraft?..was it the same Ge 414 or the GE 414 EPE engine?....

 

[dbc]

DBC...what engine was used in the aircraft?..was it the same Ge 414 or the GE 414 EPE engine?....

F414-GE-400

 

[Markus]

MMRCA RUMOUR: MiG-35 Out, Details Tomorrow

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: MMRCA RUMOUR: MiG-35 Out, Details Tomorrow

 

[marcos98]

Nose section of the Gripen NG on display, with the IRST Skyward Selex AESA radar and ES-05 Raven.

 

[CONNAN]

MMRCA BUZZ: MiG-35 Was Never In The Running?

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence

Quick disclaimer: with nothing official on the MMRCA competition available from the Indian government -- at one level, rightly so -- the only available information is hearsay. And I don't think debate about rumours is going to ever affect a professionally managed competition. This is a pot that stirs itself. It could be bang on, it could be totally off. I'm hoping everyone will look at the assertions on their own merit. These are bits of conversations with officers, ex-Chiefs etc over the last few weeks strung together. Ok, let's get down to it.

The overriding sense I get from my sources is this: It is not a question of what chance the MiG-35 has in the MMRCA sweepstakes but whether the MiG-35 ever had a chance in the first place. From the start, it turns out, both the MoD and a controlling section of the IAF have agreed on one crucial thing -- the next aircraft the IAF operated would need to be a truly modern platform that "broke the mould". That was to be the starting point of everything that followed. The IAF's next aircraft needed to be a top-of-the-line aircraft that broke out from the old mould and signalled new things for India in every possible sense: technology, diplomacy, security cooperation, political opportunity, military interoperability, logistical exchange and economics.

As late as mid-2006, a time when there was a breathless guessing game about precisely when the Indian MoD would send out its MMRCA RFP, there were apparently quiet discussions on over whether Moscow could be brought on board and persuaded to stay out of the proposed MMRCA competition. It was suggested that this be made possible through interactions at the highest levels, but first the MoD and IAF needed to figure the feasibility of such a proposal. It is said that the Russian Ambassador to New Delhi at the time was called in for an unofficial discussion on the highly controversial possibility of Russia actually being kept out of the sweepstakes. He was accompanied by Russia's Air Attache. As the IAF expected, the Russian envoy was incredulous. He said there was no way on earth his Russian bosses would ever be persuaded to agree to that. Obviously. A year before, in February 2005, Russia had sent a MiG-29M/M2 MRCA to AeroIndia 05. For AeroIndia 07, MiG pulled out all the stops. A month before that in January 2007 was an important event -- India and Russia finally formalised their joint fifth generation aircraft plan, though actual agreements came later.

In February 2007, the "MiG-35" (actually the MiG-29M2 No. 154, a 17-year-old airframe with blue-painted fins) was officially unveiled to the world at AeroIndia 07 at the IAF's Yelahanka base. Coupled with the bright red and blue thrust-vectored MiG-29OVT, the two aircraft put up a deeply memorable show. But IAF officers who had a chance to check out the aircraft came away very unimpressed. "It is an old aircraft with a few MFDs," one of them said at the time. At the time, it indeed was, but Russia had said it was merely a proof-of-concept platform that would be evolved into a formidable new Fulcrum.

Six months later, on August 28, 2007 -- two days after the MAKS 2007 air show at Zhukovsky (see photo, me and MiG's Stanislav Gorbunov after our sortie) -- the Indian government finally and belatedly issued its long-awaited RFP to six vendors, 211 pages long and delayed ostensibly by the offets and selection model sections. This probably means nothing, but in all MoD and official acquisition council papers concerning the MMRCA competition since the RFP, the MiG-35 is first in the list of six competitors. As a matter of record, the official order of the remaining competitors is Gripen, F-16, F/A-18, Typhoon, Rafale. A senior IAF officer who was part of a delegation to MAKS 2007 met UAC boss Alexei Fedorov on August 22-23, 2007, and is understood to have had a very "frank chat". Fedorov was told that the Indian government was willing to consider the MiG-35, though its chances were slim, considering the three explicit guiding principals of the selection process, and the two unspoken ones (more on these later). Fedorov is understood to have said that the Russian government was fully aware of the "winds of change" in New Delhi, but was confident that MiG would put up a good fight, politically too.

On a political level, it was conveyed to the Russians that the flagship Russian airplane, the Su-30, was being patronized extensively by India (plans were afoot already then to up orders), and that the MiG-35 was hardly a platform the Russian Air Force itself was interested in.

On March 7, 2008, the Indian government, after prolonged cost negotiations, finally concluded a $964.1-million contract to upgrade the IAF's entire fleet of over 60 MiG-29s (the Indian phase of the upgrade began in June this year). Shortly thereafter, on April 28, 2008, RAC-MiG/Rosoboronexport submitted an MMRCA technical bid for the MiG-35/35D to the MoD, offering a Fulcrum with an improved airframe, new generation avionics and an AESA radar, the Phazotron Zhuk-AE.

In October-December 2008, during evaluations of the MMRCA technical bids, two Russian MiG-29s crashed after critical structural failures of their fins, forcing the Russian Air Force to ground its entire fleet shortly thereafter. Coming as the accidents did so soon after the upgrade contract was concluded, the IAF generated a query, routed through the Russian Air Attache, asking for a full brief on the accidents on why the Russians had been forced to ground their entire fleet. In April 2009, Russia responded, saying there were structural faults in the MiG-29 platform, and that the accidents had been caused as a result of structural failure of the aircraft's fin root ribs. Significantly, the Russians conveyed that a specific "repair scheme" would be included in the March 2008 upgrade manifest. The IAF, however, demanded to know what immediate checks needed to be carried out and requested full accident reports. These were provided. The Russians grounding their entire Fulcrum fleet created a huge stir. Sections of the MoD/IAF debated the possibility of manipulating the entire issue to somehow put the MiG-35 out of the reckoning, but nothing whatsoever in the RFP terms would allow it. Also, by this time, the "guiding principles" as expounded by the MoD had begun to echo like a mantra.

The explicit principles -- first, the IAF's operational needs should be fulfilled. Two, the selection process needed to be competitive and transparent, and finally, that the competition would lead to a legacy leap for Indian industrial capabilities. The unspoken principles -- first, the competition should provide robust leverage to India's multifarious 21st Century political aspirations. And second, as previously stated, the competition needs to break old moulds in every sense to create strategic space for other partnerships.

A former IAF chief, who served during a crucial phase of the MMRCA planning, admits that the competition is a political opportunity that incidentally gives the Indian Air Force a chunky stop-gap to tide over legacy jet phase-outs and delays in the Tejas -- not the other way round. "You can argue ad nauseum about sanctioned strength and squadron strength. The fact is the IAF's requirement is not only much simpler, but much smaller too. As long as the pilots get a top-of-the-line airplane, nobody is complaining. Let the politicians do the politics. That is their job," he says, adding, "The IAF's requirements for a fresh batch of medium fighter jets came at a time when our strategic aspirations were in a state of great flux. It will be an enabler in many ways."

In March 2010, around the time the crucial MMRCA field evaluation trials were winding down, the Indian government exercised options and signed up for 29 additional MiG-29K/KUB shipborne fighters for the Navy at a cost of $1.46-billion, taking its total order to 45 planes. In other words, since the time the IAF first approached the government with a requirement for a quick induction of medium fighters (it wanted to quickly contract for 60-70 more Mirage-2000s at he time), the Indian government has pumped approximately $3.5-billion into procuring MiG-29 platforms or platform related services.

The maximum I could squeeze out from informed sources about the MiG-35's performance in the field evaluation trials is that the platform achieved "average compliance". Areas of poor compliance are said to have occured at the Leh leg, avionics exploitation and PGM delivery routines in Russia. The IAF are also said to have been fairly unimpressed with what the Russians had managed to achieve with the aircraft since they first saw it in February 2007. If the MiG-35's performance was average in the trials, they know about it, since the IAF trial team briefed every contending team about their horse's performance after trials concluded.

The Indian government remains utterly unconvinced of Russia's ability to provide any meaningful industrial package to India as a mandatory part of the MMRCA. The India-Russia relationship is anything but new -- it stretches back 47 years. India has learnt much from Russia, and has been provided the opportunity to cookie-cut airplanes through decades. But when it comes to meaningful industrial collaboration, the Indian government feels the Russians are better at selling and license building, rather than true blue industrial cooperation.

"It is not as though they have not had a chance to deepen their relationship with us industrially. Nobody knows the Indian industrial capability better than the Russians. They have exploited our weaknesses to the hilt for over four decades. But even then their industrial base is in tatters. In my opinion, whatever we can ever get from the Russians, we have already got or are soon to get. To expect anything more is unreasonable," says a former IAF Chief. Apparently, the Indian government also doesn't believe the Russians have anything to offer over and above what the Indians are already signing up for -- the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) will be an ostensibly joint effort.

While the initial MiG-29K deal was too good not to go for (at least in 2004!) and the upgrade was something the IAF could postpone but not sidestep, sources say the government has very low confidence in the industrial health of MiG Corporation, tottering as it apparently is from airframe to airframe. Russia's inability to stick to delivery timeframes, especially for MiG Corp, is another spoiler.

On a final note, the path taken by the MiG-35 so far in the MMRCA competition needs to be seen in the light of the unspoken guiding principles and what the IAF and MoD originally wanted to persuade the Russians about. I've put this post up now, but will be adding more to it over the next couple of days.

 

[anathema]

^^ not again .....

 

[karan.1970]

^^ not again .....

This will keep on going again and again, till the MoD babus have mercy on us and announce the decision. After that also, you never know if CAG will announce some irregularity and the whole thing will start again. Analysis Paralysis in its full glory

 

[anathema]

This will keep on going again and again, till the MoD babus have mercy on us and announce the decision. After that also, you never know if CAG will announce some irregularity and the whole thing will start again. Analysis Paralysis in its full glory

Yeah true...anyways.. babu's and mercy doesnt go together....I just hope that Babu's dont place their interest's over nation's/IAF's interests.

Can we get the information by filing RTI ? ... Damn...where is tehelka when we need them .... bloody they should have conducted some snooping missions...

 

[roach]

Looks like it's going to be a European aircraft this time- that's a good thing, The Jaguar and the Mirage 2000 have proven to be dependable and efficient platforms.

 

[karan.1970]

^ all of them are good planes. MoD should get on with it and buy one. Its less than $ 2 billion per annum outflow over next 7 years. Get it over with already..

 

[Dash]

Please dont blame Indian government.

Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor are the real culprits

 

[anathema]

Please dont blame Indian government.

Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor are the real culprits

If 'shook law' and 'error' are culprits then GoI is the godfather !!

MRCA drama years in the making...gun tender ...i think by the time artillery guns are ordered the concept of artillery will be outdated...there are many more such examples of government and its institutions...

Shukla and arror are saints when compared to them...

 

[SpArK]

India Discussing Offsets With Fighter

By admin at 22 August, 2010, 2:18 am

BY: AVIATION WEEK

Following the Indian air force’s flight evaluation of six Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) candidates, the Indian government is now considering technical offset proposals and beginning discussions with the prospective vendors.

The Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126-aircraft program.

A European contender was invited to the Indian air force’s head office on Aug. 20 to discuss the flight evaluation and has been invited to the defense ministry to present its offset proposal. The vendor’s team includes all partners associated with the bid, including the airframe manufacturer, weapons suppliers, avionics and engine makers.

The second part of the proposal — commercial offsets — is expected to be opened by April 2011.

“Those that make it to the downselect will be evaluated on the technical report, compliance with transfer of technology and with offsets,” a senior official said.

“Everything depends on the supply chain,” an official involved in the flight evaluations said. “The air force is also aware that it requires good management systems and an auto-diagnostic capability.”

“India needs to pit the lowest bidder against the second lowest bidder — a practice it tends not to follow — to get the best deal,” another official noted. “[There] is no point in deciding on a finalist and beating him further down to size.”

Given the challenges of life-cycle costs, India has made it clear that maintenance support will be essential to the offer.

 

[SpArK]

A very Hilarious observation.



No 1:Gripen.

The US has banned this filly from using an Israeli AESA radar,to keep its blinkers from being equal to or better than that of the F-18SH's (which seems to be the preferred choice for the US for India).Unless there is a setback to the LCA breeding programme,the Gripen is at the start of the race trotting at the tail end of the field,as though it would be perhaps cheaper than the others,it would mean acquiring a new aircraft and breeding tech.The SAAB stud farm also suffers from a major setback,the lack of a strong “jockey”,meaning a political powerhouse,who can steer the horse through the bunch at the finish.In this respect,the US,Russia and the French probably have the best jockeys.



N0 2:F-16 Falcon.

This famous gelding ,rather long in the tooth,has been racing for three decades now and has in the past won many a trophy.But it is handicapped by its age and the fact that our rival stable to our west,wearing “green colours”,has a horse from the same breeder and the same parents.Therefore,it is highly unlikely that we will want the equivalent of two Ambassador cars trying to race each other across Howrah Bridge (hilarious to behold),a task in which neither can defeat the other! In addition,the gelding is accused of quietly stealing secret measurements of the course from the clubhouse,infuriating its rivals especially the French,who want it disqualified or to run with a high handicap,The F-16 is slightly behind the Gripen at this stage of the race,gamely bringing up the rear.



No 3:MIG-35.

This Russian stallion from the famous MIG bureau,has in its early “Coltish” days got the better in sprint exercises of the American gelding above,especially those animals in German colours.It dances in the air like a Nuryev or Nijinsky.The animal,has been fed on some 100 proof vodka and now is unequalled in the sprint,thanks to its TVC tail,which can swish in any direction,able to swat flies “tous azimuths” ! Its former “farting” problems have been resolved with a better diet and since Indian jockeys have ridden its younger brother before and are breeding the same,buying more for the IN too,should make it one of the hot favourites.In addition,it has a splendid Russian jockey,the very same one who rode the SU-30MKI into IAF colours,who “knows” Indian Race Clubs and their stewards very well,should it all come down to a photo-finish.Acquriing this supersonic sprinter should be the cheapest option for the IAF,especially as a nuclear fuelled fish has just been launched with Russian breeding expertise and another Russian bred fish is due later this year for the IN.However,there is a handicap factor going against this fancy from winning,its blinkers capability and in that the IAF already have that incomporable undefeated stallion,the SU-30MKI Flanker in its stable and are going to breed an even finer stealthy sprinter called the PAK-FA ,of 5th-genetic strain,from the Sukhoi stud farm.The IAF's stable might like to indulge in some cross-breeding by acquiring a European or western genetic strain of horseflesh to avoid too much of in-breeding.It's well placed for the final sprint,just behind the leaders.



No 4:F-18 Super Hornet.

This expensive American pony has had as long an innings as the F-16 and the animal has been given massive doses of steroids to keep it racing like the late Flo-Jo.However,its long innings is coming to a close as owners like Oz do not want to buy any more from this family.Most of America's allies who race this beast are lusting after another young foal called the JSF F-35,plus this nag comes in at a very expensive price for its age and has no future for breeding.American breeders are trying their best to sell this pony with warpaint,claiming that their nag is favourite of western jockeys and has the best long-distance eyesight thanks to AESA blinkers.All the other animals in the race claim that they too have the same kind of blinkers,though of different make.However,the US had a smart jockey earlier called Bush,who saw to it that the supply of nuclear fodder was dependent upon India buying a US animal! The White House stud farm,under new Black management,will do its best to keep the deal from unravelling,and sent an experienced female jockey called Clinton to give it the whip.Unhappy Congressmen however are trying to put new conditions upon the supply of nuclear fodder and also dictate to India the specified courses where the animal can run and where it cannot.It also wants the right to inspect the animal wherever it is running and even during a race,to see if its testicles are not being used clandestinely for stud purposes!This to many in India is unacceptable,as it might prove impossible to entertain especially during a race againt mortal rival Pakistan.India is however willing to allow semen samples to be sent outside its stables for testing.It is this factor,that nuclear fodder ,other saddle-room spares and breeding technology might be witheld by America,especially if we test radio-active fodder again.Some insiders say that despite these handicaps,the stewards “have been made an offer they cannot refuse”.Watch this pony's progress carefully keeping in mind that old axiom,”Money makes the mare go”!
Leading the pack at the moment,but can it remain first at the finish?



No 5:Rafale.

This fine French filly is a raring to go anywhere and has great capability for the future.It can cavort across any course like a Moulin Rouge dancer and has a perfectly shaped body with superbly shaped boobs,lovely smooth legs and underbelly and an inviting behind.Having enjoyed the pleasure of riding iits older sister,the Mirage-2000,which has satisfied IAF jockeys for years,this animal should in fact be the hot favourite,but in typical French fashion,the horse entered the stalls facing in the opposite direction as they run so on French courses and was about to be disqualified to the delight of the Americans.The small made French jockey,Sarko,light in the saddle,came to its rescue and used Dassault's great influence with the stewards to allow it to continue in the race.The chief handicap of this splendid filly is that like all fine French wares,it is an expensive acquisition, and has not won any races outside Longchamp.It was unduly handicapped the French claim,thanks to some “pulling”,”doping” and opening the gates last at the start,due to American stable owners when running on pro-American courses in the Far East.Since the IAF jockeys have a taste for fine French fillies,this filly is in with a great chance.

The filly is running just behind the leaders ahead of the MIG-35


No 5:EADS Typhoon,

This fine stallion is a cross-breed genetically,of the best of non-French European traditions.It is racing for several European nations,especially in the colours of British and German stables.Both a powerful sprinter and endued with great stamina,this European animal has the advantage that its breeder,EADS,has already won a race for a breeding contract for the LCA Tejas programme,as the animal lacks both power and stamina and needs careful breeding programme.EADS is willing to provide both breeding tech and the right fodder machine (EJ-200) to make the LCA filly go.The breeders also claim that this stallion can compare favourably with the king of the course,the Flanker SU-30 MKI in the IAF's stables.Running juast behind the leader,the SH.