Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"

Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, ...

This is an upgrade of the F18SH and will of course make it more useful for the future too, but we must have 2 things in mind here:

1. USN have invested in the study for possible future upgrades, but not cleared them so far. Most of it will depend on F35, because they don't need most of these upgraded techs, if F35 will be available. The GE 414 EPE for example is offered for export customers and must be funded and developed first, but USN has shown no interest on funding this.

Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade
By Stephen Trimble

Boeing is seeking an international launch customer for a 20% higher thrust version of the General Electric F414 turbofan that powers the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet...

...While the USN seeks a new engine core to make the F414 more durable, some international customers are interested in a new engine fan that enables higher thrust, Gower said.
"The 'enhanced durability engine' becomes the 'enhanced performance engine' when you put the fan on it," Gower said.

Although the core enhancements are already under contract with the USN, the programme is seeking an export customer to launch development of the F414 EPE, Gower said.

The international order would lead to follow-on sales for the USN, which would gradually replace its current inventory with the improved version, Gower said.

Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade



2. The other upgrades as I said are good, but needed mainly to upgrade the older techs of the F18 design. Next-generation cockpit,
Missile laser warning, Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST), are lates standard and already availabe in most of the other fighters.

Here the actual F18SH cockpit, in comparison to Rafale and Mig 29K (which should be similar to Mig 35):

As you can see some of these upgrades are mainly needed, just to make the F18SH comparable to the others.


The rest of the upgrade is tricky imo, CFTs are a good idea and but I am not sure about these stealthy weapon pod. It's mainly for BVR and smaller A2G weapons, in very limited numbers, should increase drag and manouverability is an issue with the F18SH anyway. Don't know if it could reduce the RCS so far, that it really would give an advantage. The best would have been such CFTs with weapons bays like the F15SE, but they seems to be not possible for the F18.

So these upgrades are good, but who pays for them and what difference will they really make?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

We should avoid US unless there is no other choice.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

We should avoid US Unless there is no other option.

 

[Trisonics]

MKI is a good strike fighter too, but mainly for heavy strikes when air superiority is already achieved, or from distance with A2G missiles. To enter enemy air space in preemptive strike missions will be very difficult for it, because of the big RCS and the fact that our opponents now have AWACS support too. So imo, in the timeframe you pointed out, MKI should remain the workhorse in air superiority with the first Pak Fa / FGFA above it and a second day strike fighter if you want. MMRCA instead should take over the air defense roles of Mig 29 and M2k (which will be phased out by then too), but more over the strike role of Mk2 and Jags from 2015 onwards. Which means it should offer good A2G capabilities now and also enough potential for a long time in service. The F16IN would offer a good strike capability too, but I have big doubts about its future potential, so I agree Rafale and F18SH suits IAF at best.

MRCA's role primarily is for deterrence against the Chinese, in that regard, EF will play the role superbly well since they(the Chinese) already have more flankers and do not have anything to match EF in A2A combat(at least for now). However, that would be only in the short-term until the Pak Fa/FGFA is inducted. Considering the A2G role of EF will be improved, it does offer great advantages albeit with a large purchase price. If negotiations can get the price down EF would be my first choice.

My second option would be F-16 probably in numbers of 126 and further supplemented by f-35 with MKI playing the role of A2G fighters.

I'm all for Rafale or EF, big no for SH, a big yes for F-16 if it came with F-35s in later stages.

 

[dbc]

This is an upgrade of the F18SH and will of course make it more useful for the future too, but we must have 2 things in mind here:

1. USN have invested in the study for possible future upgrades, but not cleared them so far. Most of it will depend on F35, because they don't need most of these upgraded techs, if F35 will be available. The GE 414 EPE for example is offered for export customers and must be funded and developed first, but USN has shown no interest on funding this.



Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade



2. The other upgrades as I said are good, but needed mainly to upgrade the older techs of the F18 design. Next-generation cockpit,
Missile laser warning, Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST), are lates standard and already availabe in most of the other fighters.

Here the actual F18SH cockpit, in comparison to Rafale and Mig 29K (which should be similar to Mig 35):


As you can see some of these upgrades are mainly needed, just to make the F18SH comparable to the others.


The rest of the upgrade is tricky imo, CFTs are a good idea and but I am not sure about these stealthy weapon pod. It's mainly for BVR and smaller A2G weapons, in very limited numbers, should increase drag and manouverability is an issue with the F18SH anyway. Don't know if it could reduce the RCS so far, that it really would give an advantage. The best would have been such CFTs with weapons bays like the F15SE, but they seems to be not possible for the F18.

So these upgrades are good, but who pays for them and what difference will they really make?

How do you know this? Have you ever flown a Super Hornet?

 

[ARCHON]

 

[!!craft!!]

How do you know this? Have you ever flown a Super Hornet?

come on lady give the guy some slack for posting such informative content!!

 

[dbc]

come on lady give the guy some slack for posting such informative content!!

its not informative its speculative.

 

[anathema]

From Shiv Arror ----

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Gripen's 32-Page Supplement With Latest Edition Of INDIA TODAY Magazine

Damn these PR stunts --with every PR stunt--my decision making capability is affected.

I guess -- MRCA down selection is near !! The way these PR stuff is coming out...in a month or two -- we may get to hear whos in the race !

 

[sancho]

its not informative its speculative.

John P. Fielding, Introduction to Aircraft Design

Figure 4.1 shows a plot of combat wing loading against thrust / weight ratio, which is a good indication of the manoeuverability of the combat aircraft...
...Recent requirements for high agility have moved aircraft towards the top left-hand corner where high thrust / weight and low wing loading improve climb, sustained turn and attained turn performance.

So: high T/W ratio + low wing load => better climb and turn rates = > better manoeuverability!

But the F18SH offers exactly the opposite! It has one of the lowest T/W ratios and one of the highest wing loads of all contenders in the competition. It has no canards, or even TVC to increase manoeuverability in other ways, so compared to the other contenders in the competition, it has obviously issues in this field.

The F18SH is good in BVR and strikes, in WVR combats it depends on its techs and weapons, but can't point with flight performance.
But of course, from an US point this is speculative only!

 

[sudhir007]

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Lockheed Pipes In: F-16IN Has Great Growth Prospects

The American teens are working overtime to battle deep perceptions that their wares -- the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper -- are essentially old aircraft (i.e. not modern) with a few new systems bunged in, and are basically platforms in the twilight of their operational lives, being replaced as they are with new assets by US forces. Boeing tried dealing with that perception a few days ago when it revealed that India was being offered something called the International Roadmap as part of the MMRCA competition. Arch-rival Lockheed-Martin articulated something similar recently, which they sent over. Posting it in full:

"While the Super Viper is a new design just for India, it is also the starting point for future growth. The F-16 has a well documented history of continuous evolution in capability. This is very important since the F-16IN is inherently designed for a long service life (in excess of 6500 flight hours). During this service life the desire will likely arise for significant upgradation to add capability for expanded mission roles, improved combat capability, and reduced operating costs. There are two primary enablers to this evolution: technology advancements and a proactive upgradation strategy.

Technology Advancements. The Super Viper is on the cutting edge of fighter aircraft technology with its 5th gen-based AESA radar, fiber optics data network, large flat panel color displays and the latest precision weapons. Starting now the Super Viper has inherent growth capacity due to ample unused space and large processing reserves. Nevertheless, emerging technologies will enable even greater capability. The history of technology advancement, especially for digital systems, shows that this added capability comes in increasingly smaller packages with lower power requirements. (Today’s mobile phone includes web browsing, games, and video in a smaller size than yesterday’s voice-only device.) The F-16 has demonstrated this many times across seven major block changes. This includes five generations of core avionics, five radar versions, ten different EW suites, and dozens of new weapons without changing the aircraft structure or size. To take advantage of these new technologies the Super Viper has a growth-oriented architecture for adding new systems and capabilities. Maximum use has been made of commercial standards and technology such as processing, software and networking.

Upgradation Strategy. The U.S. Air Force along with the European operators of the F-16 have been jointly executing a long term continuous upgradation strategy since the beginning of the F-16 program. As part of the overall sustainment philosophy, this strategy recognizes the need for continuous improvement and it defines a step-wise approach to keeping the F-16 on the forefront of war fighting capability. There are F-16s flying today in the U.S. and in Europe that are 30 years old but they have the same systems and capabilities as a new Block 50 F-16. At the heart of the strategy is a long term capability improvement roadmap which is synchronized with technology-driven improvements in weapons, sensors, displays, and computing. These key technology areas have their own improvement roadmaps which dovetail with the aircraft capability improvement roadmap. The roadmap is implemented through a series of software releases and hardware updates. For the U.S. and European Air Forces there is typically a major software release each 18 months. This allows for balance between rapid fielding of new capability and time required to assimilate the new capabilities into operational use. Major hardware updates are likewise spaced out to optimize fleet management while aircraft are being inducted into the modification program.

In summary, the growth potential for the Super Viper is much more than just the currently available spare capacity. Combining the latest technologies with a long term continuous upgradation strategy will keep the F-16IN relevant from the day it is first inducted until it is finally retired from service."

 

[dbc]

John P. Fielding, Introduction to Aircraft Design




So: high T/W ratio + low wing load => better climb and turn rates = > better manoeuverability!

But the F18SH offers exactly the opposite! It has one of the lowest T/W ratios and one of the highest wing loads of all contenders in the competition. It has no canards, or even TVC to increase manoeuverability in other ways, so compared to the other contenders in the competition, it has obviously issues in this field.

The F18SH is good in BVR and strikes, in WVR combats it depends on its techs and weapons, but can't point with flight performance.
But of course, from an US point this is speculative only!

This is what the Federation of American Scientist have to say about the F-18. I'd go into details and explain why the F-18 has exceptional handling but it'd be a complete waste of my time since you are not man enough to admit you are wrong

The F/A-18 has a digital control-by-wire flight control system which provides excellent handling qualities, and allows pilots to learn to fly the airplane with relative ease. At the same time, this system provides exceptional maneuverability and allows the pilot to concentrate on operating the weapons system. A solid thrust-to-weight ratio and superior turn characteristics combined with energy sustainability, enable the F/A-18 to hold its own against any adversary. The power to maintain evasive action is what many pilots consider the Hornet's finest trait. In addition, the F/A-18 was also the Navy's first tactical jet aircraft to incorporate a digital, MUX bus architecture for the entire system's avionics suite. The benefit of this design feature is that the F/A-18 has been relatively easy to upgrade on a regular, affordable basis

Federation of American Scientists :: F/A-18 Hornet

Unlimited angle-of-attack and carefree flying qualities for highly effective combat capability and ease of training.

Boeing: F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Home
Answer me this why is the Rafale's AoA limited by FLCS while the Super Hornets AoA isn't.

 

[anathema]

Typhoon during Farnborough air show !!! Note it is doing it full combat load...very impressive the way it takes of and climbs into air.

 

[dbc]

The F-18 holds the record for the quickest recovery from an out of control falling leaf maneuver. Typically the result of sustained high angle of attack, most aircrafts need atleast 10,000 ft to recover, here is HUD footage of an F-18 doing it in less than 4,000 ft.

So to me its laughable when folks claim the F-18 lacks maneuverability.

 

[sancho]

This is what the Federation of American Scientist have to say about the F-18. I'd go into details and explain why the F-18 has exceptional handling but it'd be a complete waste of my time since you are not man enough to admit you are wrong .

The F/A-18 has a digital control-by-wire flight control system which provides excellent handling qualities, and allows pilots to learn to fly the airplane with relative ease. At the same time, this system provides exceptional maneuverability and allows the pilot to concentrate on operating the weapons system. A solid thrust-to-weight ratio and superior turn characteristics combined with energy sustainability, enable the F/A-18 to hold its own against any adversary. The power to maintain evasive action is what many pilots consider the Hornet's finest trait.

Actually it is said, but I expected exactly this! I really liked your posts in the past, because they were often were very informative, but the recent discussions that we had showed me, that you are biased towards US arms and techs!

The part that you quoted and that I expected, is talking about the F18 Hornet, not the Super Hornet that is offered in MMRCA!
The Hornet has a T/W above 1 unlike the Super Hornet, as well as a lower wing load and as I showed you in my last post, that improves climb and turn rates, so manoeuverability.
So even the older F18 Hornet versions are more manoeuverable than the actual Super Hornet, let alone new fighter designs like the EF, or Rafale for example.
All you proved is, that you again claim wrong things and keep on with them, while completely ignoring the points I made in my posts, so a furhter discussion really makes no sence.
The fact remains, the F18 Super Hornet has one of the lowest T/W ratios and one of the highest wing loads in the competition!