Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Sri]

The Link
Race for `mother of all deals' for 126 fighters gets hotter - India - The Times of India

 

[flanker143]

is there any fixed date for mmrca decision ??

i seriously want this to end !!!! go rafale !!!

 

[maithil]

In some other forum a poster was saying that he has some inside informations and most probably the tender will be a split one..)i know this has been discussed to death here)..what do you guys think --126RAFALE+74SH

 

[Chanakyaa]

Yes, even my contacts state the same rafale+hornet... But that leaves me puzzled.....

 

[Leonidas]

In some other forum a poster was saying that he has some inside informations and most probably the tender will be a split one..)i know this has been discussed to death here)..what do you guys think --126RAFALE+74SH

Good to read but not practical. It would be a logistical blunder. I guess no air-force in the world operates so many different types of fighter aircrafts like that of India.
USAF operates 4 types -> F-22, F-18, F-16 & F-15 with F-35 in testing stage.
RAF operates 3 types -> Typhoon, Tornado & Harrier.
French Air Force 3 types -> Rafale, Mirage 2000, Mirage F1.
IAF - Su30MKI, Mirage 2000-5 mk2, MiG-29SMT, Jaguar, MiG-27, Tejas, MiG-21 & PAK-FA in 2018. Add to that 2 types of MRCAs. Thats an absolute logistical nightmare scenario. (Not including Sea Harriers here cz they r operated by the Naval Air Arm, not the IAF)
Do u still think we should go for 126RAFALE+74SH
And yes, different types of aircrafts does not make a great Airforce but the quality of personnel & aircraft does.

My 2 cents.

 

[Leonidas]

Rafale wont win the MRCA its engine thrust is too low thats why UAE wants to fund further development so it is more suited to hotter climates

I believe that the biggest advantages with Rafale are
First, its air-to-ground capabilities.
Second, the proven track record of Mirages in the IAF.
Third, full ToT with no strings attached.
Fourth, ease of induction in the IAF as it is already operating french jets.

Although I personally favour Typhoon but lets be honest, Rafale cannot be counted down & out as yet.
It is the second best in the competition IMO.

 

[Sri]

As far as I understand EF is the best fighter in the competition when it is fully developed, but thats good 5 years delayed and I don't think we can wait that long.

It looks like F 35 and EF are in similar states, one is in prototype stage and other is in initial stages of development ( Only AtoA is ready, and AESA, AtoG etc are still missing). As some one was saying F35 missed the bus as its 5-6 years late. I feel same goes to EF as well.

By reading from Brazilian competition- Mig 35, NG are strict NO (as both of them are not developed)

This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board," warns Cavagnari.

 

[Dash]

"Life cycle cost" and 50% offset clause...

Clearly shows Rafale will have advantage over others as they wont be able to give 50% offset clause with 1 or 2 higher end techs....

 

[maithil]

Good to read but not practical. It would be a logistical blunder. I guess no air-force in the world operates so many different types of fighter aircrafts like that of India.
USAF operates 4 types -> F-22, F-18, F-16 & F-15 with F-35 in testing stage.
RAF operates 3 types -> Typhoon, Tornado & Harrier.
French Air Force 3 types -> Rafale, Mirage 2000, Mirage F1.
IAF - Su30MKI, Mirage 2000-5 mk2, MiG-29SMT, Jaguar, MiG-27, Tejas, MiG-21 & PAK-FA in 2018. Add to that 2 types of MRCAs. Thats an absolute logistical nightmare scenario. (Not including Sea Harriers here cz they r operated by the Naval Air Arm, not the IAF)
Do u still think we should go for 126RAFALE+74SH
And yes, different types of aircrafts does not make a great Airforce but the quality of personnel & aircraft does.

My 2 cents.

IAF in 2020: Su-30, Mirage,Mig-29, Tejas ,FGFA and RAFALE+SH..

Jaguar and Mig-27 will start retiring by then..Mig-21 will be retired by then...

Even if we leave these 3 we will have 7 different types..and LCA will be in two different configs. MK-I and II..

add 5-7 years--

IAF- Su-30-- 270
Mig-29- 60 --- This will also start going out..
RAFALE- 120
SH-75
FGFA-100-120
LCA- ~200
MCA- ~20

Again 7 different types of manned aircrafts..not to forget the extra UCAVs..

looks very formidable force but very tough to maintain...

 

[flanker143]

IAF- Su-30-- 270
Mig-29- 60 --- This will also start going out..
RAFALE- 120
SH-75
FGFA-100-120
LCA- ~200
MCA- ~20

mca still on paper ...no way it ain't comin in 5-7 years......

rafale + sh ....... oh god plzz no ...

rafales fine !!!!

no sh plzzz

 

[maithil]

I was talking about 2020+ ( 5 to 7 ) years..

Although RAFALE is no doubt best..you cant discount the abilities if SH (no sanctions comment please) ..It has best radar..and who knows as a lollypop US may agree on giving us GROWLERs..

 

[sancho]

Can you please be objective in your assessment of the Rafale? Active cancellation has gone no where since Pierre-Yves Chaltiel first talked about it in the mid 90's - he is probably retired long ago and spends most of his time playing pétanque in some corner of France.

That's why I told him, that this tech is not developed and only possible in future right? Otherwise I would simply joined him and argued with Active cancellation too and future capabilities too.

The French for sure are working on somekind of stealth techs related to Spectra (in recent reports it was called active stealth), but only for future batches and nothing really reliable in know so far.

These are the possible upgrades of Rafale in future:

Revised acccording to the DSI, May, 2010........


Rafale F3-O4T Rafale Batch 4 (2012 ~ 2017)

A. The first productional fighter with AESA radar in Europe.
B. New weapons and equipments Damocles XF, new members of AASM family.
C. RBE-2 AESA radar.
D. FSO-IT.
E. DDM-NG.
F. Spectra EWS upgrading.
G. Possible upgrading choice: HMD.
H. M88 TCO upgrading (M88-4E).


Rafale UAE (2013 ~ )

A. Possibly the first member of Rafale with thrust enhancement.
B. New weapon Meteor BVRAAM.
C. The main electronic equipments should be the same as Rafale F3-O4T or Rafale Batch5.
D. GMTT and GMTI modes.
E. HMD.
F. New M88 engine with thrust enhancement (20,000 Ib class).
G. RCS reduction.
H. Improvement in weapon load capability at tropic area SCALP-EG*3 + 2,000 L tank*2 + AAM*6


Rafale Batch 5 (2018 ~ 2023)

A. Possibly the first member of Rafale with active stealthy techonology.
B. New weapon Meteor BVRAAM, Next generation of Damocles.
C. Upgrading RBE-2 AESA radar GaN +/- side-looking airborne radar antenna.
D. GMTT and GMTI modes.
E. OSF-NG Techonology of laser radar image.
F. DDM-NG upgrading.
G. Upgrading for Data Fusion.
H. SATCOM Datalink.
I. SPECTRA 5T EWS (GaN).
J. HMD-NG.
K. Air-launched cruising jammer / decoy with deployable wings.

A few months ago there was even e new article, that described the future Active Stealth and Spectra 5T capabilites, will post it if I find it again.

 

[sancho]

This will be the first time that "life-cycle costs" will be taken into account rather than just pitching for the lowest bidder. The "direct acquisition cost", the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, and the cost of the ToT will all be taken into account to arrive at a "verifiable cost model" for the commercial evaluation.

This is a hit for the Mig, because it rules out one of its major advantages, the low unit costs! Now there is even less it could offer IAF and why it is doubtful that it will be chosen.
Also interesting is, that they are aiming for a long term solution (over 40 years), not only a stop gap anymore. That's what I often said before, it's not a simple fighter replacement anymore and the best package should win.

 

[Hindustan Fighter]

I was talking about 2020+ ( 5 to 7 ) years..

Although RAFALE is no doubt best..you cant discount the abilities if SH (no sanctions comment please) ..It has best radar..and who knows as a lollypop US may agree on giving us GROWLERs..

It is not just a question of getting the best aircraft. India is not a rich country and cost will also play big role in selection of these aircrafts. When I say cost I mean cost of aircraft + cost of weapons + cost of spares + other cost (maintenance hours, fuel required/ sortie, single engine/twin engine).

Also if you see traditionally most of the world's major airforces who operate both single engine and twin engine fighters always have more single engine aircrafts than twin engine aircraft and so historically is the case with IAF.
If you compare the ratio of single engine : twin engine fighter in these airforces, we will see average ratio of about 2:1 or at least 1.5:1 in the favor of single engine aircraft.
e.g USA airforce- currently have than 1200 F-16 and 600 F15.
In 5 G planes they will have 187 F22 and more than 500 F-35 A.

Also currently India have about 270 odd mig-21(both bison and older ones), 145 odd Mig-27, 51 Mirages 2000.
Altogether about 350 to 370 single engine fighters

125 su-30mki 100 odd jaguars, 64 mig29
Altogether about 290 twin engine fighter.

In next 15 yrs we would have retired all of the mig- 21s and mig- 27s. By 2025 we will have about 51 upgrades mirage 2000-5 and around 140 LCA (both mark 1 and 2).
So in all about around 180 to 190 single engine fighters

Also 270 Su-30mki, 64 mig 29 SMT, 100 FGFA+PAKFA. Already around 340 twin engine fighters.
If we have twin engine MRCA then around 460 twin engine and 190 single engine.

We shouldn't be surprise if IAF selects one of the single engine fighters in MRCA i.e. F-16 IN or Gripen IN since the fact that IAF was originally looking for Mirage 2000 class fighter to begin with.

Even though most of us here want either Rafale or Typhoon to come out as winner, however the cost and other factors mentioned above might eventually favor F-16 or Gripen.

 

[sancho]

It is not just a question of getting the best aircraft. India is not a rich country and cost will also play big role in selection of these aircrafts. When I say cost I mean cost of aircraft + cost of weapons + cost of spares + other cost (maintenance hours, fuel required/ sortie, single engine/twin engine).

Also if you see traditionally most of the world's major airforces who operate both single engine and twin engine fighters always have more single engine aircrafts than twin engine aircraft and so historically is the case with IAF.
If you compare the ratio of single engine : twin engine fighter in these airforces, we will see average ratio of about 2:1 or at least 1.5:1 in the favor of single engine aircraft.
e.g USA airforce- currently have than 1200 F-16 and 600 F15.
In 5 G planes they will have 187 F22 and more than 500 F-35 A.

Also currently India have about 270 odd mig-21(both bison and older ones), 145 odd Mig-27, 51 Mirages 2000.
Altogether about 350 to 370 single engine fighters

125 su-30mki 100 odd jaguars, 64 mig29
Altogether about 290 twin engine fighter.

In next 15 yrs we would have retired all of the mig- 21s and mig- 27s. By 2025 we will have about 51 upgrades mirage 2000-5 and around 140 LCA (both mark 1 and 2).
So in all about around 180 to 190 single engine fighters

Also 270 Su-30mki, 64 mig 29 SMT, 100 FGFA+PAKFA. Already around 340 twin engine fighters.
If we have twin engine MRCA then around 460 twin engine and 190 single engine.

We shouldn't be surprise if IAF selects one of the single engine fighters in MRCA i.e. F-16 IN or Gripen IN since the fact that IAF was originally looking for Mirage 2000 class fighter to begin with.

Even though most of us here want either Rafale or Typhoon to come out as winner, however the cost and other factors mentioned above might eventually favor F-16 or Gripen.

Hi Hindustan Fighter, that's too simple I think. The F35 for example replaces single engine F16s as well as twin engine F18 Hornets, it's maintenance is much higher than the maintenance of F16s now. On the other side, the maintenance of Rafale was aimed at Mirage 2000 levels and some reports from Greece air force, that evaluated the Rafale too, confirms that. So only because you have 2 engines doesn't always mean twice the costs, just as a single engine doesn't mean lower costs.

The initial MRCA competition would have gone for a single engine fighter for sure (M2K-5, or Gripen C/D), but now MMRCA is aiming on more, but of course the lifetime costs will play a role. The one that gives the most advantages in different fields will most likely win. That can be a costlier fighter like Rafale, or EF, if we get much in return (ToT, offsets, partnerships, JV...), or a cheaper fighter like Gripen NG, that also offers less. It all depends on what the real reqirements are and what MoD wants!