Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions
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sancho
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A split was denied from MoD before, but even if, this combo would make no sense, because one would get 2 fighters that has commonality, or with different capabilities. If there would be a split, the only combo that makes sense would be Gripen NG and F18SH. Both could use the same US weapons, as well as the same GE 414 engine and while the NG will be for point defense and close combats, the F18SH would be for BVR and strike attacks.
karan.1970
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SSGPA1
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This article confirms that MRCA will be a US solution. We have enjoyed their friendship for 60 yrs and it is now your turn
An ideal solution for IAF would have been a French or Russian jet but the US knows how to win business in Asia.
Dash
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Where does the article say MRCA will be a US solution? It says they are making a strong pitch.This article confirms that MRCA will be a US solution. We have enjoyed their friendship for 60 yrs and it is now your turn
An ideal solution for IAF would have been a French or Russian jet but the US knows how to win business in Asia.
It's very unlikely that it will go to a US party as TOT is impossible for a simple reason that without signing of agreements which we are hesutant to sign US will not give the tech.
It will go to Europian.
flanker143
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as far as i know tot was a must for mmrca program.......which US cannot provide ...
so no use of selecting it when u will be denied of the tech transfer in later stages of procurement ...... resulting in another round of negociations resulting in even more delays......
so i personally think that India should not go for SH....
so no use of selecting it when u will be denied of the tech transfer in later stages of procurement ...... resulting in another round of negociations resulting in even more delays......
so i personally think that India should not go for SH....
MIG 35 will indeed be a good choice for the nation.It gives all features of a 4.5 generation fighter and more importantly it will show our show solidarity with a long standing ally Russia.Friends of such nature are hard to come by.Although the only disadvantage will be we may not get something new or different compared to su30mki
Dash
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Mig 35 is not yet developed, Its just an advanced version of Mig 29K and it offers no advantage in tech which might come in our way.
Well you have seen your friends arm twisting in recent Gorky deal, and 10 billion is too big to be given to any one based on friendship, its the least important factor, whats more important is best for IAF, tech political benifit and so on so forth.
What you will get here will complement your So30 MKI fighters. You will get a multirole platform and advanced and stronger than MKI in many terms.
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Dash Saare...
I beg to differ. Indians are no saints. They too advantage of the situation (Russian economic mess) and made a bargain which was simply practically not possible. Russians being in a economic mess wanted to get rid fo the ageing carrier -- they put in mig 29 clause which was beneficial for them -- we went ahead with the deal. Only to realize it simply is not possible.
We did the same thing for MKI, but unlike gorshkov , we were able to pull of MKI due to relatively short turn around time to produce a fighter aircraft.
anathema
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Rafale M F1 were pitted against the greeks F-16 b52 -- Cross posting from Military Aviation thread - Air superiority - Thanks to Antibody
4 Rafale F2 B, 1 Rafale F2 C.
The recent excercise wasn't the first occasion for a HAF squadron to counter the Rafale. In 2006 the Rafale M from CdG partecipated in excercises with F16block52+ and F4E AUP. But the Rafale M of the time, were F1, a version centered in air-to-air role with somewhat limited capabilities. In the Aegean Gust partecipated Rafale F2, with improved air to air capabilities, including the data link between aircrafts of a formation, combined with FSO and data fusion...
... Both greek and french pilots flew as backseaters in each other planes. As for the engagements:
4 sorties occured in the morning and 3 in the evening of Tuesday in 2 vs 2 scenarios, in BVR. The greek aircrafts were B52+. On Wednesday 8 sorties with Rafale B in 2 waves (morning, evening), with the partecipation of 1 french pilot and 4 greek backseaters. This time it was 4 vs 4. The greek aircrafts were B52+, B50D, B30.
Something that appeared strange to the greek pilots, was that while according to the HAF policy the pilots were doing the last pre-takeoff check of their planes (Leak check), the French pilots were taking position on the runway without doing so.
The impressions of the greek pilots were variable, as is natural , and their observations quite interesting. The whole of the greek F16 pilots, found the cockpit particularly functional, although a bit small, as is used in all french aircrafts. Also, the best impressions left the glass cockpit advanced disposition. It is known that the high operational output of the Rafale is result of high performance, excellent behaviour and friendly MMI that adopts to the high workload in multirole missions. The existance of so many displays and the characteristical absense of analog instruments, was natural to make a big impression to the greek pilots, who apart the Falcon's MFDs, are used to analog instruments. Some in fact, told us that they would feel more comfortable, if some analog instruments have been kept as backups in cases of malfunction or failiure of the electric system. Of course it is certain that safety valves has been thought, while evolution indicates that full glass cockpit will dominate in the future, as will happen in the case of F35 too.
It is also natural to be impressed by the high situation awareness provided by the Rafale thanks to data fusion. The Rafale, as the greek pilots had the chance to see, can receive tracking data from RBE2, Spectra, OSF, IFF, MICA IR sensors and accompanying aircrafts, ground command and control facilities and AWACS, elaborate them and produce system tracking data (system tracks). These are superior to quality compared to the single data of the individual sensors. This data is then used for fire control and is shown in the central tactical display and can be transmitted to fellow aircrafts. So, at a glance at the tactical display, the pilots can see the position of targets that may be inside the radar cone or outside and even in the rear hemisphere, no matter if the radar is on or off!
Also, it was verified that OSF provides advantage in air combat. As the greek pilots observed, once the target is locked from the radar, its image is then displayed in the central display which facilitates very much the target identification even in great distances.A similar function is provided in the F16 by the Lantirn Pod in air to air mode, with the difference that the backseater can make a search independent of the radar. On the contrary on the Rafale, the OSF is primarily slaved on the radar.
The best of impressions left to the greek pilots the performace of the Rafale's self protection suite, confirming the french reputation in the sector since the time that HAF operated the ICMS2000 in the Mirage2000.
Small reprimands were made to some small but important details, like the fact of the abscense of a countdown timer in the HUD when a BVR missile is flying towards its target. The greek F16 pilots are used to such an indicator on the lower left of the HUD, indicating the "Time On Target" of the Amraam and the time remaining until the Amraam's autonomous seeker is activated. If the missile fails tracking, then the indication "Loose" appears over the locked target on the HUD and the pilot is aware that the shot has failed. Something like this wasn't found on the Rafale, leading to a difficulty in the interpretation of the BVR shots during the engagements. And this, because the French were regarding that after a certain range , a MICA shot was always successful. As a result, the arrival to safe conclusions, was problematic.
Beyond that, it was also commented positively the agility of the Rafale. Of course the greek pilots still think of the F16 as a particularly capable aircraft in dogfight.
In the air, the Rafale is very agile, but for the greek pilots the sense of flying was very different from that of the F16. It was commented as perfectly stable, with very good response in all speeds and manouvers. Very good impressions were also left by the automatic pilot as well as the ability of maintaining very low speed during approach, prior to landing.
... The Rafale certainly proved that it is a very capable aircraft in the hands of the excellently trainned french pilots who have battle experience. The encounter with F16s, gave the greek pilots the opportunity to measure the F16 capabilities against a 4th gen aircraft, while it showed yet another time that the level of HAF pilots is one of the best in NATO airforces.
4 Rafale F2 B, 1 Rafale F2 C.
The recent excercise wasn't the first occasion for a HAF squadron to counter the Rafale. In 2006 the Rafale M from CdG partecipated in excercises with F16block52+ and F4E AUP. But the Rafale M of the time, were F1, a version centered in air-to-air role with somewhat limited capabilities. In the Aegean Gust partecipated Rafale F2, with improved air to air capabilities, including the data link between aircrafts of a formation, combined with FSO and data fusion...
... Both greek and french pilots flew as backseaters in each other planes. As for the engagements:
4 sorties occured in the morning and 3 in the evening of Tuesday in 2 vs 2 scenarios, in BVR. The greek aircrafts were B52+. On Wednesday 8 sorties with Rafale B in 2 waves (morning, evening), with the partecipation of 1 french pilot and 4 greek backseaters. This time it was 4 vs 4. The greek aircrafts were B52+, B50D, B30.
Something that appeared strange to the greek pilots, was that while according to the HAF policy the pilots were doing the last pre-takeoff check of their planes (Leak check), the French pilots were taking position on the runway without doing so.
The impressions of the greek pilots were variable, as is natural , and their observations quite interesting. The whole of the greek F16 pilots, found the cockpit particularly functional, although a bit small, as is used in all french aircrafts. Also, the best impressions left the glass cockpit advanced disposition. It is known that the high operational output of the Rafale is result of high performance, excellent behaviour and friendly MMI that adopts to the high workload in multirole missions. The existance of so many displays and the characteristical absense of analog instruments, was natural to make a big impression to the greek pilots, who apart the Falcon's MFDs, are used to analog instruments. Some in fact, told us that they would feel more comfortable, if some analog instruments have been kept as backups in cases of malfunction or failiure of the electric system. Of course it is certain that safety valves has been thought, while evolution indicates that full glass cockpit will dominate in the future, as will happen in the case of F35 too.
It is also natural to be impressed by the high situation awareness provided by the Rafale thanks to data fusion. The Rafale, as the greek pilots had the chance to see, can receive tracking data from RBE2, Spectra, OSF, IFF, MICA IR sensors and accompanying aircrafts, ground command and control facilities and AWACS, elaborate them and produce system tracking data (system tracks). These are superior to quality compared to the single data of the individual sensors. This data is then used for fire control and is shown in the central tactical display and can be transmitted to fellow aircrafts. So, at a glance at the tactical display, the pilots can see the position of targets that may be inside the radar cone or outside and even in the rear hemisphere, no matter if the radar is on or off!
Also, it was verified that OSF provides advantage in air combat. As the greek pilots observed, once the target is locked from the radar, its image is then displayed in the central display which facilitates very much the target identification even in great distances.A similar function is provided in the F16 by the Lantirn Pod in air to air mode, with the difference that the backseater can make a search independent of the radar. On the contrary on the Rafale, the OSF is primarily slaved on the radar.
The best of impressions left to the greek pilots the performace of the Rafale's self protection suite, confirming the french reputation in the sector since the time that HAF operated the ICMS2000 in the Mirage2000.
Small reprimands were made to some small but important details, like the fact of the abscense of a countdown timer in the HUD when a BVR missile is flying towards its target. The greek F16 pilots are used to such an indicator on the lower left of the HUD, indicating the "Time On Target" of the Amraam and the time remaining until the Amraam's autonomous seeker is activated. If the missile fails tracking, then the indication "Loose" appears over the locked target on the HUD and the pilot is aware that the shot has failed. Something like this wasn't found on the Rafale, leading to a difficulty in the interpretation of the BVR shots during the engagements. And this, because the French were regarding that after a certain range , a MICA shot was always successful. As a result, the arrival to safe conclusions, was problematic.
Beyond that, it was also commented positively the agility of the Rafale. Of course the greek pilots still think of the F16 as a particularly capable aircraft in dogfight.
In the air, the Rafale is very agile, but for the greek pilots the sense of flying was very different from that of the F16. It was commented as perfectly stable, with very good response in all speeds and manouvers. Very good impressions were also left by the automatic pilot as well as the ability of maintaining very low speed during approach, prior to landing.
... The Rafale certainly proved that it is a very capable aircraft in the hands of the excellently trainned french pilots who have battle experience. The encounter with F16s, gave the greek pilots the opportunity to measure the F16 capabilities against a 4th gen aircraft, while it showed yet another time that the level of HAF pilots is one of the best in NATO airforces.
Dash
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So what does that mean at the end???
anathema
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It means -- There is no sense in crying that we were bled by russians on Gorshkov deal --- we made a deal without thinking and taking advantage of the russian problems ---Russian's revised the price when the going was better for them..... Ultimately india is getting gorshkov for the actual price it would have if russia was in a stable condition....
Just my two cents --these are all hypothesis ----
sancho
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I don't agree on that, because they offered us that carrier and was ready to refurbish it, so it was their responsibility to know how much it costs and how long it takes. We might add some things that increased the costs, but these cost increasings from time to time and the huge delays (if I'm not wrong it was expected in 2008, but will only come by 2012) are not acceptable and are one more reason why we should be less reliable on Russia too.
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