Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[calcutta]

that active cancellation thing is bullshit . still doing its rounds in the labs . i don't know the exact mechanism ... it sounds like the suite tracks down the signals from the radar and emits such a signal itself after passing it through a 90 degree phase shift .. thus leading to destructive interference..... the result : to the radar it would seem the signal has passed through ... ie there is nothing to worry about......well sounds difficult..........believe it is as difficult as it sounds............best of luck to the French people.

 

[Sri]

Hi Sancho,

I agree with you about the per unit cost of Rafale 67m$ is without maintenance etc. but we should see that the cost of SH is 55 m$, NG 50 m$ what I mean to say is total package of all the fighters will still be very high unlike what has been claimed for NG. so when we are comparing the total package cost then all the fighters might be in similar factors.

i.e. sh might cost something like 100 - 120 m( as we need to buy everything), and rafale might cost 130-160 m $( we might save on some infra, weapons bcoz of mirage), and NG might cost around 100 m$ ( as we need to buy everything), what I mean to say total package of rafale might still be attractive.

comments pl

tx
sri

 

[sancho]

Hi Sancho,

I agree with you about the per unit cost of Rafale 67m$ is without maintenance etc. but we should see that the cost of SH is 55 m$, NG 50 m$ what I mean to say is total package of all the fighters will still be very high unlike what has been claimed for NG. so when we are comparing the total package cost then all the fighters might be in similar factors.

i.e. sh might cost something like 100 - 120 m( as we need to buy everything), and rafale might cost 130-160 m $( we might save on some infra, weapons bcoz of mirage), and NG might cost around 100 m$ ( as we need to buy everything), what I mean to say total package of rafale might still be attractive.

comments pl

tx
sri

True, the overall difference is not as big as it was before and that's what I meant with good news, the problem is still the high costs for French parts. We already will have similar weapons through upgraded M2Ks, but I hope we could integrate more Indian weapons like Astra soon too.
Latest news for Brazil seems that they want more fighters than the 36 they wanted at the beginning, their navy wants new carrier fighters too and they prefer Rafale as well.

 

[trident2010]

that active cancellation thing is bullshit . still doing its rounds in the labs . i don't know the exact mechanism ... it sounds like the suite tracks down the signals from the radar and emits such a signal itself after passing it through a 90 degree phase shift .. thus leading to destructive interference..... the result : to the radar it would seem the signal has passed through ... ie there is nothing to worry about......well sounds difficult..........believe it is as difficult as it sounds............best of luck to the French people.

Its 180 degree phase shift mate !! . However, it is very difficult to acheive it in real time as relative distance and other electrical parameters are not constant.

 

[anathema]

True, the overall difference is not as big as it was before and that's what I meant with good news, the problem is still the high costs for French parts. We already will have similar weapons through upgraded M2Ks, but I hope we could integrate more Indian weapons like Astra soon too.
Latest news for Brazil seems that they want more fighters than the 36 they wanted at the beginning, their navy wants new carrier fighters too and they prefer Rafale as well.

Sri/Sancho,

I again state that Rafale/EF is just too expensive. Whether India will go these planes is a different matter altogether.

Compare this in 1998 UAE negotiated with US for 80 F16C/D's --

UAE to Purchase 80 F-16C/Ds, Arms in Deal Worth $7 Billion

"REPRESENTING ONE of the largest and most expensive sales of U.S. fighter aircraft this decade, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) announced on May 12 that it will purchase 80 F-16C/D fighters, including weapons and support systems, worth an estimated $7 billion."


Now compare the US Navy Super Hornet deal --

Navy to buy 124 Boeing Super Hornets for $5.4B - St. Louis Business Journal


"The U.S. Navy said it plans to enter into a multi-year procurement deal with Boeing to buy 124 F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets for $5.4 billion"

Even if you include weapon systems/ToT/blah blah...and you double the deal it still is 10.8 billion dollars.

Now compare this with Rafale deal....36 aircraft for 10 Billion (not sure if this is the figure).... Even if the deal is for 5 Billion dollars sorry it still is way too expensive !

If India is prepared to spend big bucks - then great -- we can buy Rafale (my personal fav)...but if it involves bidding process then tata bye bye Rafale. Same case with EF.

From a cost wise we only have F16, F18 and Gripen. I have ruled Mig 35 - but you can put it back on ....

 

[anathema]

that active cancellation thing is bullshit . still doing its rounds in the labs . i don't know the exact mechanism ... it sounds like the suite tracks down the signals from the radar and emits such a signal itself after passing it through a 90 degree phase shift .. thus leading to destructive interference..... the result : to the radar it would seem the signal has passed through ... ie there is nothing to worry about......well sounds difficult..........believe it is as difficult as it sounds............best of luck to the French people.

Never say never..... Spectra is still classified...nobody knows what it does !

There must be some reason that cost to develop Spectra is almost half of the entire fighter development costs -- or something like that...you can google it.

 

[soaringphnx]

SPECTRA​

The SPECTRA system for the Rafale combat aircraft operates in electromagnetic, laser and infra-red domains. Using sophisticated techniques, such as interferometry for high precision DOA and passive ranging, digital frequency memory for signal coherency and active phased-array transmitters for maximum effectiveness and covertness, the highly advanced multi-sensors and artificial intelligence data fusion capabilities of SPECTRA provide the Rafale aircraft with the best chance to survive in harsh and lethal environments. The Rafale combat aircraft and the SPECTRA system are fully operational onboard the French Navy's Rafale.

Offering unique high sensitivity detection and multiple threat capability, and operating smart data fusion between multi-spectral sensors, it provides identification, location, jamming and decoying against an extensive range of electromagnetic, infra-red and laser threats.

Additionally, SPECTRA fulfils new functions in a combat aircraft, while significantly participating in the determination of the aircraft's tactical situation, and providing the crew with operational advantage by performing accurate threat location.

By virtue of its fully passive situational awareness capability, SPECTRA is a major contributor to the low observability concept of Rafale.

Original Article: SPECTRA - Thales

Note: Here, there is nothing mentioned about Spectra employing "active cancellation". According to wikipedia, Spectra may employ "active cancellation" technology as it has been tested by Thales. We can only speculate if Spectra employs "active cancellation" or of it is fully functional.

 

[soaringphnx]

I know this isn't something new, but since the discussion has turned to the Rafale,

Rafale defeats F-22? ​

French magazine Air & Cosmos published last week a photo obtained from the French Air Force showing a Lockheed Martin F-22 in the target sights of a Dassault Rafale. The apparent intercept took place during the exercises at Al Dhafra AB, UAE, in November and December, Air & Cosmos' Guillaume Steuer reports.

In late December, the French Ministry of Defense boasted one kill in six engagements versus the F-22 in aerial combat. In turn, US Air Force F-22 pilots, however, told the media that their aircraft was undefeated during the exercise.

It's impossible to make any sensible judgments from a single photo of an alleged air-to-air engagement, but this is certainly a significant image to appear in the history of both fighter programs.

Original article: PHOTO: Rafale defeats F-22? - The DEW Line

 

[blain2]

This did not happen. No F-22s were defeated. The Rafales flew three DACT missions against the Raptors. Lost one and the two were called off after some maneuvering. Rafale certainly did not beat the F-22 in any way.

Secondly, the F-22s flew with AMAs which increased their radar signature for aircraft like the Rafale and others to see it on their radars.

Interestingly enough, the only aircraft that the F-22 pilots called out as interesting in their DACT missions were Pakistani F-7PGs for the asymmetric threat they represented.

The image you see above is from the targeting pod of the Rafale which can track other aircraft in formation. This is not a HUD/Pipper shot.

 

[blain2]

Sri/Sancho,

I again state that Rafale/EF is just too expensive. Whether India will go these planes is a different matter altogether.

Compare this in 1998 UAE negotiated with US for 80 F16C/D's --

UAE to Purchase 80 F-16C/Ds, Arms in Deal Worth $7 Billion

"REPRESENTING ONE of the largest and most expensive sales of U.S. fighter aircraft this decade, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) announced on May 12 that it will purchase 80 F-16C/D fighters, including weapons and support systems, worth an estimated $7 billion."


Now compare the US Navy Super Hornet deal --

Navy to buy 124 Boeing Super Hornets for $5.4B - St. Louis Business Journal


"The U.S. Navy said it plans to enter into a multi-year procurement deal with Boeing to buy 124 F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets for $5.4 billion"

Even if you include weapon systems/ToT/blah blah...and you double the deal it still is 10.8 billion dollars.

Now compare this with Rafale deal....36 aircraft for 10 Billion (not sure if this is the figure).... Even if the deal is for 5 Billion dollars sorry it still is way too expensive !

If India is prepared to spend big bucks - then great -- we can buy Rafale (my personal fav)...but if it involves bidding process then tata bye bye Rafale. Same case with EF.

From a cost wise we only have F16, F18 and Gripen. I have ruled Mig 35 - but you can put it back on ....

Don't compare a new order (F-16 blk60) which had to be funded for research and serial production to a follow-on order of F/A-18s for the USN. Two different things with different price tags.

My own take is that IAF is going for the SH. Nothing else makes sense and the Indians will find themselves beholden to the US aircraft.

In the scheme of things, I can tell you that IAF always had F/A-18 and F-16 as the top choices. F-16 will not be in the running for very many obvious reasons, however F/A-18 not only fulfills the IAF requirements, but also provides the best bang for the buck of the line-up available.

Folks can disagree here with me, but I am pretty darn sure that this MMRCA is going the way of the F/A-18.

 

[karan.1970]

My own take is that IAF is going for the SH. Nothing else makes sense and the Indians will find themselves beholden to the US aircraft.

In the scheme of things, I can tell you that IAF always had F/A-18 and F-16 as the top choices. F-16 will not be in the running for very many obvious reasons, however F/A-18 not only fulfills the IAF requirements, but also provides the best bang for the buck of the line-up available.

Folks can disagree here with me, but I am pretty darn sure that this MMRCA is going the way of the F/A-18.

Thank God.. Finally someone who has similar views as mine in terms of selection of MRCA for India.

 

[dbc]

Secondly, the F-22s flew with AMAs which increased their radar signature for aircraft like the Rafale and others to see it on their radars.

In all the foreign military exercises the Raptor has participated in it has flown with this device attached (between exhaust nozzles).

 

[dbc]

Thank God.. Finally someone who has similar views as mine in terms of selection of MRCA for India.

You're not the only one, if you go back a few hundred pages I've said the very same thing..

 

[merajahmed]

Thank God.. Finally someone who has similar views as mine in terms of selection of MRCA for India.

imo Rafale, euro-fighter, f-18 s/h will be the final three and then tot, price will be negotiated as we know mmrca is for 126 aircraft but there is a provision for another 74 aircraft in total it is 200 if US (f-18) got the tender for 126 then definitely 74 will goes to Europe and if not then it will vice verse.

 

[sancho]

Sri/Sancho,

I again state that Rafale/EF is just too expensive. Whether India will go these planes is a different matter altogether.

"The U.S. Navy said it plans to enter into a multi-year procurement deal with Boeing to buy 124 F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets for $5.4 billion"[/B]

Even if you include weapon systems/ToT/blah blah...and you double the deal it still is 10.8 billion dollars.

Now compare this with Rafale deal....36 aircraft for 10 Billion (not sure if this is the figure).... Even if the deal is for 5 Billion dollars sorry it still is way too expensive !

Hi anathema, the problem in this example is, that you compared an export and a national deal, but both are not the same! The export prices are always higher, because they have to include tax, or parts of the development costs too.

F18SH for USN for example is expected between $49 to 55 millions each, the 24 that Australia bought costs around $190 millions each.
As you can see a huge difference huge difference and that's because higer costs for export customers, as well as lower numbers.