Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[jha]

^^ only if they seal the deal before us and we buy the technology developed with the UAE money...

 

[sancho]

If Saudi does go for Rafale with more thrust ...then i guess it will be similar to F16 IN...i mean they will charge some royalty for a new version of Rafale..i guess...

Again you confuses Saudi Arabia and UAE! What do you mean with similar to F16IN?

 

[anathema]

And because you don't thrust arab sources, one more western:

As you can see it was €6 billions for 96 Rafales.

Well ..7 Billion odd dollares for 40 odd aircrafts checks with 4 Billion odd dollars of 30 odd aircrafts for Brazil... There is no way there can be so much difference. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this topic...

Rafale was never more expensive, it always was quoted as slightly cheaper! So that point doesn't fit here and as you can see also, the Rafale deal had also side deals, that would have gone up to €20 billions in total. However, lets wait and see when real numbers for us will come out.

Like i said there are no confirmed reports which one is more expensive ...i have seen some charts which suggested Rafale is more expensive...But we will never know till Rafale clinches its first export order.

The 20 Billion pound deal was precisely the deal that went to UK (Bae systems , euro consortium)...France did not get anything from Saudi's -- atleast then. 20 Billion pounds ....Arms corporations would give their leg to get this contract.

If you check the below link from Telegraph....it says ..that Saudi's are buying 48 Typhoon (similar to Rafale) for 8 billion odd dollars. The Saudi has a further option to increase the fighters 72 Aircrafts. This again checks with the fact that price range of Rafale and Typhoon are pretty similar.

Link - BAE shares soar on £20billion jet deal with Saudis - Telegraph

"The Saudis are understood to have agreed to buy 48 Typhoon fighters in the initial stages, rising to as many as 72 jets over 10 years."

Saudi Arabia takes control of Typhoon combat jets

"The two combat aircraft -- produced by a BAE Systems-led consortium of European firms -- were the first out of an order for an eventual 72 fighters, worth up to 38.6 billion dollars, including armaments and long-term servicing."


Anyways leads me to believe that Typhoon is no less expensive than Rafale.

That's not correct, the vendors had the choice to come to India to make the weapon trials, or to field them in their own countires. It was reported that the Gripen D, the Mig and AFAIK also the US fighters made them in India (not completely sure about Rafale, but I think it made it in India too). The EF that came to India was from German Luftwaffe and these are less developed for A2G, that's why the consortium said from the beginning, that the weapon trials will be fielded in UK, with british EFs.

Gripen did weapon trials in Sweden. Saab website and presentation had that listed. I think F16 and typhoon did in origin countries...i dont know about Rafale.

Just like you said, IN had no real choice to buy other fighters that these Mig 29K. It was a combined deal and there wer not many other fighters that could be used from Gorshkov, or Vikrant and that's why the limited A2G capabilities doesn't matter that much for them.
IAF instead has the option of 6 different fighters to supplemtent the exsisting fleet, that's why they have totally different options to set the requirements

Common Sancho thats a strawman. There are no confirmed reports that IN was forced to buy Mig 29K. So speculation is out of the window. What is left and real and published is that IN is buying Mig 29K. For the sake of national security i dont think we would be buying any equipment (of vital importance) if it didnt meet our criteria !!

Further IN could have limited the Mig 29K order to just 16 (the initial contract) if it so limited in its role and was forced into buying it...but IN went ahead recently and ordered more (29 i believe - not sure)..This would not have happened if it was limited in its role.

There is no limited A2G capabilities - even IAF has choosen to upgrade its Mig 29 to SMT standards to make it a multirole aircraft.

 

[anathema]

Again you confuses Saudi Arabia and UAE! What do you mean with similar to F16IN?

Damn the bloody hell...i dont whats with me and UAE, Saudi...both are so similar ...anyways....i meant blck 60. Since a gulf nation (note i am avoiding calling the country by name , no more confusion) is charging royalty....i am pretty sure it would be applicable in our case also.

---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ----------

^^ only if they seal the deal before us and we buy the technology developed with the UAE money...

Trust our BABU's to do the 'Delaying' job of signing the deal.

 

[sancho]

Hi, have not the time to answer in detail now, so a fast reply only.

Well ..7 Billion odd dollares for 40 odd aircrafts checks with 4 Billion odd dollars of 30 odd aircrafts for Brazil... There is no way there can be so much difference. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this topic...

Saudi was system price including training spares... and as I pointed out the offer was for 96 Rafales, the system price for 36 Rafale in Brazil is expected at close to $10 billons, not $4.

Like i said there are no confirmed reports which one is more expensive ...i have seen some charts which suggested Rafale is more expensive...But we will never know till Rafale clinches its first export order.

Of course there are, you can compare the costs that the EF members pay and what France pay, you can compare the offers for Saudi, or in Austria, Singapore before, even now in the Swiss competition is was reported that the EF is the costliest fighter.

The 20 Billion pound deal was precisely the deal that went to UK (Bae systems , euro consortium)...France did not get anything from Saudi's -- atleast then. 20 Billion pounds ....Arms corporations would give their leg to get this contract.

The sign was for EURO not pounds, so it's not the same!

Gripen did weapon trials in Sweden. Saab website and presentation had that listed. I think F16 and typhoon did in origin countries...i dont know about Rafale.

Link?

Common Sancho thats a strawman. There are no confirmed reports that IN was forced to buy Mig 29K. So speculation is out of the window. What is left and real and published is that IN is buying Mig 29K. For the sake of national security i dont think we would be buying any equipment (of vital importance) if it didnt meet our criteria !!

You should google about it! The carrier came free, we only had to pay for the refurbishment and the 16 Mig 29K/KUBs!

Further IN could have limited the Mig 29K order to just 16 (the initial contract) if it so limited in its role and was forced into buying it...but IN went ahead recently and ordered more (29 i believe - not sure)..This would not have happened if it was limited in its role.

As I said in my last post, they had nearly no other option! The only other fighter that could be able to be used on STOBAR carriers should be the Rafale, but it comes with twice the costs that the Mig 29 costs and of course totally new spares and weapons, which means additional costs for IN. So ordering additional Migs for these medium class carriers makes sens, even if they are not that capable. The bigger carrier that is planed for 2018, is meant for different roles, IN for sure will go for more capabale fighter then and not for Migs anymore.

There is no limited A2G capabilities - even IAF has choosen to upgrade its Mig 29 to SMT standards to make it a multirole aircraft.

They extended the life of the Migs, to keep them in service for another 10-15 years, but for sure not because its A2G capabilities. Low numbers of weapon station, low payload, mainly light A2G weapon loads...
As I said, even the single engine Gripen NG, will be better in this field than the Mig 35!

So much for now, G8!

 

[Justin Joseph]

US wants India to 'favourably' consider IAF's MMRCA bid

WASHINGTON (PTI): As India seeks to modernise its air force, the US has pushed for greater share for American manufacturers of high-technology products and services like the Boeing and Lockheed in a bid to boost bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations.

US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, during his meeting with Union Minister of Commerce and Industry Anand Sharma, argued that American manufacturers Boeing and Lockheed are dependable providers of high-technology products and services.

In the meeting early this week on the sidelines of the Indo-US CEOs Forum in Washington DC, the top Obama administration official urged India to favourably consider the aircraft bids by Boeing and Lockheed, who are seeking to sell their aircrafts and fighter aircraft to the Indian Air force.

Locke said the US is looking to India to set a trajectory for economic, trade and investment growth in the near-and medium-term.

"A clear plan would encourage expanded US-India commercial activity - the kind of activity that would make good on the potential it holds for both our peoples," he said.

"Locke took the opportunity to advocate for US fighter aircraft manufacturers, noting that the US government supports Boeing and Lockheed Martin bids because they have proven to be dependable providers of high-technology products and services - including aircraft - in the Indian defence sector," the US Commerce Department said.

Both Boeing and Lockheed have placed bids for aircrafts and fighter aircraft as the Indian forces seek to modernise the fleet of aircraft.

"The Indian government's medium, multi-role combat aircraft competition is tremendously important to the US with vital implications for our bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations," it said.

In 2009, the US exported approximately $ 16.5 billion in goods to India, making it our 17th-largest exporting partner.

The principal US exports to India are precious stones, metals, machinery, aircraft, spacecraft, electrical machinery and fertilisers.

As of 2008, India had invested $ 4.5 billion into the United States.

The Department of Commerce's International Trade Administration can help US companies increase their trade with India, offering such services as trade counselling, market intelligence
, business matchmaking and commercial diplomacy.

US wants India to 'favourably' consider IAF's MMRCA bid :: Brahmand.com

To hell with USA how can they try to pressurize a competition also where was the USA at the time of china-pak nuke deal why don't they stop it through pressure or NSG.

 

[SpArK]

US wants India to 'favourably' consider IAF's MMRCA bid

WASHINGTON (PTI): As India seeks to modernise its air force, the US has pushed for greater share for American manufacturers of high-technology products and services like the Boeing and Lockheed in a bid to boost bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations.

US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, during his meeting with Union Minister of Commerce and Industry Anand Sharma, argued that American manufacturers Boeing and Lockheed are dependable providers of high-technology products and services.

In the meeting early this week on the sidelines of the Indo-US CEOs Forum in Washington DC, the top Obama administration official urged India to favourably consider the aircraft bids by Boeing and Lockheed, who are seeking to sell their aircrafts and fighter aircraft to the Indian Air force.

Locke said the US is looking to India to set a trajectory for economic, trade and investment growth in the near-and medium-term.

"A clear plan would encourage expanded US-India commercial activity - the kind of activity that would make good on the potential it holds for both our peoples," he said.

"Locke took the opportunity to advocate for US fighter aircraft manufacturers, noting that the US government supports Boeing and Lockheed Martin bids because they have proven to be dependable providers of high-technology products and services - including aircraft - in the Indian defence sector," the US Commerce Department said.

Both Boeing and Lockheed have placed bids for aircrafts and fighter aircraft as the Indian forces seek to modernise the fleet of aircraft.

"The Indian government's medium, multi-role combat aircraft competition is tremendously important to the US with vital implications for our bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations," it said.

In 2009, the US exported approximately $ 16.5 billion in goods to India, making it our 17th-largest exporting partner.

The principal US exports to India are precious stones, metals, machinery, aircraft, spacecraft, electrical machinery and fertilisers.

As of 2008, India had invested $ 4.5 billion into the United States.

The Department of Commerce's International Trade Administration can help US companies increase their trade with India, offering such services as trade counselling, market intelligence
, business matchmaking and commercial diplomacy.

US wants India to 'favourably' consider IAF's MMRCA bid :: Brahmand.com

To hell with USA how can they try to pressurize a competition also where was the USA at the time of china-pak nuke deal why don't they stop it through pressure or NSG.

No favors.. let the deal go to Europe..

 

[soaringphnx]

No favors.. let the deal go to Europe..

I would like to respectfully disagree. I think we are doing ourselves a favour by opting for the European fighters..

 

[karan.1970]

^^Not gonna happen.. Super Bug it will be (Though I would love a rafael or EuroJet instead). Too much political and diplomatic capital at stake here. The backroom deals would be way ahead of what we hear in the news

 

[Mirza Jatt]

why the extra consideration ??? we are already buying many of the Boeing and Lockheed stuff.

 

[karan.1970]

why the extra consideration ??? we are already buying many of the Boeing and Lockheed stuff.

Same holds true for the French and Russian stuff. At the end of the day, all the contenders are more or less in the same league (except the F 16 may be). GoI will try and maximize the diplomatic capital gains from here I guess.

 

[flanker143]

WANT A EXTREMELY GOOD AIR SUP FIGHTER ~~GO FOR EF TYPHOON

WANT A BOMB TRUCK ~~ TAKE F18SH

WANT BOTH ~~GO FOR RAFALE ...BEST ....."MULTI ROLE" BUT NOT THE BEST AIR SUP FIGHTER (EFT) OR BOMB TRUCK(SH) AVAILABLE....

HAS GUD AIR TO AIR AND AIR TO GROUND CAPABILITIES......

 

[sancho]

No favors.. let the deal go to Europe..

Everybody is using it's advantages to convince us, the US with political advantages, the European with ToT and the Russian with cheap unit costs and customization.

 

[SpArK]

Everybody is using it's advantages to convince us, the US with political advantages, the European with ToT and the Russian with cheap unit costs and customization.

Well some sort of PR was expected from US in 2-3 days time for the recent events in the region ( delivery of 4 f-16).

Its a good marketing strategy.

Im all for Rafale or EF..

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

We should avoid f16 and f18 at any cost.they got no future and comes with strings also.