Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Stephen Cohen]

If F 16 s are coming ; we must get the LATEST

And they must have AESA ; AIM 9 X ; AIM 120 D ; and the best EW suite

 

[randomradio]

But here is the downward risk - Our light category becomes US dependent fully.. and it kills everything from Tejas future to LSA to anything else in Light category..

If the second line does happen, I doubt it will be much more than 126 at best.

Every year, China will surprise the NSA, and every year the IAF will get higher priority, and every year the IAF's requirements will only increase. Eventually, the IAF will be tasked with getting the best jets possible, be it the Rafale or LSA. This second MMRCA will obviously become an afterthought.

Earlier, Boeing and Saab wanted IAF to buy 200 or more of their jets. Now, Boeing seems to have come down to "please buy 150 at least" while MoD has said the contract is only for 90. None of these competitors have the premium advantage of being the Rafale.

If you ask me only Gripen is capable of matching up to the industrial production requirements. They have designed their production cycle around small numbers right now. Just 60 for Sweden, 36 for Brazil and 90 for IAF. And I think only Gripen has any chance for export.

If F 16 s are coming ; we must get the LATEST

And they must have AESA ; AIM 9 X ; AIM 120 D ; and the best EW suite

If F 16 s are coming ; we must get the LATEST version

And they must have AESA ; AIM 9 X ; AIM 120 D ; and the best EW suite available

Oh, God no. The Aim-9X and Aim-120D are obsolete.

Better options are the ASRAAM/Python V and I-Derby ER combo. And stick the latest AESA based EW suite from the LCA program into it. The LCA's EW suite is far better than the obsolete monkey model EW they have on their F-16s. If possible, it would be even better if we replace the American AESA with the Israeli 2052. The Israelis found their 2052 to be better than what's going into the F-35. And of course, replace all their comm/IFF/datalink equipment with Indian/Israeli equipment.

At least the radar, comm and EW suite will be sensor fused if this happens. Basically, it will be a new aircraft.

This F-16 version may still not be as good as Rafale, but it will be way better than whatever they are peddling to us right now.

 

[Blue Marlin]

IAF cannot buy only Rafales, too expensive. That's why the remaining requirement for medium weight aircraft will be serviced by another cheaper aircraft. The F-16 and Gripen are the cheapest western jets. So either one can win.



The Americans plan to move their entire production line to India, both Boeing and LM will do that. In case the F-16s are made in India, even foreign countries will have to buy it from India if they want more.

That's why that little joke about selling PAF the F-16s.

i think lm is trolling india here

 

[Taygibay]

May be IAF can use F-16s against PLAAF?

Why would you rest the air defence of your country on a plane operated by your arch-enemy
whom you regularly accuse of sending all Western tech to China for copying purposes?

If there is one plane the PLAAF is ready to face, it's certainly the F-16 and the US knows that.
And it will kill the LCA. So as usual, when you can't spot the fool in a story, chances are it's you.
​

@Immortan.Joe

I'll check and put it on your profile page but MilSpec's answer points the right way. Gather advice,
use search engines with different keywords too, make up a list and check on-line sellers.
Something like this will work very well for basics : jet engines pdf in Googueule.

http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/ANASAGUIDETOENGINES[1].pdf
http://www.ltas-cm3.ulg.ac.be/AERO0023-1/ConceptionMecaTurbomachine.pdf
http://navybmr.com/study material/14008a/14008A_ch1.pdf

And there will be commercial docs too and more as you change pdf for other formats.
You'll be surprised that many documents can be accessed for free, BTW. Then you try
again with jet engine equations / mass flows in jet engines / temperatures, pressures, etc.

And next time you are called to a teacher's office, ask to check his bookcase!

i think lm is trolling india here

By now, who isn't?
Seriously, have you been to other mil fora? I mean, it's nothing but open sarcasm!

Good day all, Tay.​

 

[randomradio]

i think lm is trolling india here

One of the requirements of Make in India are near 100% ToT and manufacturing for exports and not just for the Indian armed forces.

According to the FDI rules in defence, foreign companies can invest up to 49%. The remaining 51% needs to be owned by an Indian company. But in certain cases where extensive ToT is involved, the foreign company can ask for full 100% ownership of its Indian subsidiary. Boeing is planning to do that. Boeing wants full 100% ownership and they will have the entire jet manufactured in India. They will eventually transfer all the necessary technology to Indian companies for upkeep of the fleet. LM could do the same with their F-16s. But we need to wait and see that for ourselves.

Companies like Saab and Dassault are not big enough to make such large investments, so they will need companies that are as large as LM or Boeing as partners. Saab chose Tata and Dassault chose Reliance, both are heavyweight companies.

That's why I don't like the American companies investing that way in India. IAF will get their jets, the country will cut back on foreign exchange, but the Indian industry won't get immediate returns. Reliance will end up as the biggest Indian player because of Rafale and that's always bad news.

If this second MMRCA does happen, it has to be Saab. Mig-35 is acceptable, but I don't think they will be chosen either.

Basically, I think it's a fight between Saab and LSA. And I'm pretty sure Saab has no clue about LSA.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Basically, I think it's a fight between Saab and LSA. And I'm pretty sure Saab has no clue about LSA.

Hi ; what is LSA

 

[randomradio]

Hi ; what is LSA

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 138

 

[Blue Marlin]

One of the requirements of Make in India are near 100% ToT and manufacturing for exports and not just for the Indian armed forces.

According to the FDI rules in defence, foreign companies can invest up to 49%. The remaining 51% needs to be owned by an Indian company. But in certain cases where extensive ToT is involved, the foreign company can ask for full 100% ownership of its Indian subsidiary. Boeing is planning to do that. Boeing wants full 100% ownership and they will have the entire jet manufactured in India. They will eventually transfer all the necessary technology to Indian companies for upkeep of the fleet. LM could do the same with their F-16s. But we need to wait and see that for ourselves.

Companies like Saab and Dassault are not big enough to make such large investments, so they will need companies that are as large as LM or Boeing as partners. Saab chose Tata and Dassault chose Reliance, both are heavyweight companies.

That's why I don't like the American companies investing that way in India. IAF will get their jets, the country will cut back on foreign exchange, but the Indian industry won't get immediate returns. Reliance will end up as the biggest Indian player because of Rafale and that's always bad news.

If this second MMRCA does happen, it has to be Saab. Mig-35 is acceptable, but I don't think they will be chosen either.

Basically, I think it's a fight between Saab and LSA. And I'm pretty sure Saab has no clue about LSA.

you wish................ 100% tot........... show me where it says that.

49%off est is why the rafale deal has not yet been concluded. its stupid and dassault has express their view by jacking up the price as for lm and the f16's...... well good luck. the f18's are a better choice it just is. the usa will be hitting two bird with one stone they have influence over india and pakistan.

you should have ditched the rafale and gone for the mig-35 long ago.

 

[ConcealCarry]

By the time they come, if ever, the the things you mentioned would already be obsolete, hahaha

If F 16 s are coming ; we must get the LATEST

And they must have AESA ; AIM 9 X ; AIM 120 D ; and the best EW suite

 

[PARIKRAMA]

An interesting conversation by a poster called "STOLEN" in PSK Blog
+++
STOLEN said...

Sir, there is a lot of noise coming in now about F-16s to be built in India for the IAF , this is nonsense surely?

Is there a reason for so much anti-Rafale media around lately? Is this going to affect the Rafale deal? Ajai Shukla reported today the French are getting pissed off at our reluctance to sign, could they simply walk away and focus on other markets?

I think the day to sign for the Rafale has come and gone, we have lost it.

March 18, 2016 at 2:00 AM

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To STOLEN: Of course it is sheer nonsense. Do you think the IAF will be forced to accept an aircraft that had failed the competitive evaluations? Can you imagine what kind of repercussions this will have? Do you reckon the Indian PM was bullshitting the whole world when he had announced the decision to acquire the first 36 Rafales off-the-shelf? Do you reckon the French are so arrogant as to just walk away from the gigantic Indian market? FYI the Japanese were promised a US-2i amphibian procurement at around the same time as the Rafale was selected. So in your reckoning are the Japanese too totally pissed off with the Indians? Lastly, has any French official ever expressed his/her 'pissed off' attitude to any desi journalist to date? If not, then why are you jumping to conclusions without any substance to back them up? Haven't you learnt enough as yet from all the 'desi' bullshitting that had gone on over the last 2 months of last year regarding the S-400 LR-SAM? Why do you have eyes & yet still continue to fail to see the writing on the wall? Can't you arrive at some commonsensical conclusions of your own? Why this constant over-reliance on never-ending spoon-feeding by these headless chicken masquerading as 'desi' journalists?

March 18, 2016 at 3:05 AM

STOLEN said...

Sir, I'm not worried about the IAF changing its mind- they have stuck to their guns for 5+ years now. I am concerned that these fickle polticans will be lured by the offers form LM or Boeing, Ajai Shukla reported that LM is to make an offical offer to the MoD this week. The Americans are shady businessmen- they'll undercut the French at the first chance to get India on their hook.

March 18, 2016 at 3:53 AM

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To STOLEN: So in your way of reasoning the Indian politicians can be led by their noses by the wily/shady Caucasians? Do you know that Saab had made such an offer over 1 year ago & what came of it? LM's official offer isn't even remotely connected to the F-16, but to the C-130J & S-70B2 Seahawks. Told you, NEVER fall for all the mumbo-jumbo emanating from these 'desi' bandalbaazes.
March 18, 2016 at 4:44 AM

STOLEN said...

Sir, please expand on what LM are offering vis a vis the C-130J and S-70B, this sounds most tempting for India.

March 18, 2016 at 5:01 AM

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To STOLEN: It is offering to set up regional MRO centres for such platforms. Once the foundational LSA is inked, such MRO centres will become a reality. BTW, I read the report of the 'desi bandalbaaz' & by the looks of it, he must have asked some really bizarre, insulting questions of a provocative nature, perhaps to elicit some kind of sarcastic response. And the answers he got were apt & well-deserved. I too would have answered such silly & nonsensical questions with equal disdain. You may recall that sometime in 2011 he had attempted something similar when asking LM marketing executives to comment about the FGFA. Such 'desi bandalbaazes' are so full of shit when it comes to such matters!!!

March 18, 2016 at 5:46 AM

Blogger: TRISHUL - Post a Comment

 

[randomradio]

you wish................ 100% tot........... show me where it says that.

49%off est is why the rafale deal has not yet been concluded. its stupid and dassault has express their view by jacking up the price as for lm and the f16's...... well good luck. the f18's are a better choice it just is. the usa will be hitting two bird with one stone they have influence over india and pakistan.

Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.

The SH is more expensive than the Rafale. It has very little chance. If it turns out they choose the SH, then IAF will instead ask for more Rafales instead.

It's kind of ironic. When MRCA first started in 2004, it was aimed at a light aircraft like M-2000. In 2007, the program was changed to MMRCA and was meant for heavy fighters like the Rafale and SH. During that time, single engine aircraft never stood a chance. Now, this second competition is for the single engine aircraft, the tables have turned, so the SH has no chance.

The SH/F-16 won't give much influence for the US in India, but it will make the strategic partnership much stronger. One of the criteria for the Make in India program is to make the jet entirely independent of its supplier country, and to bind the company to Indian laws. So after the jet is manufactured, the upkeep and the future of the jet will be determined by India.

The actual ToT to Indian companies is 50%. The remaining can be owned by the foreign company, but it needs to be manufactured in India as time passes.

you should have ditched the rafale and gone for the mig-35 long ago.

Terrible idea, considering we can buy both.

The Mig-35 has a chance due to the drastic fall in the ruble. It's hovering at 68 to a dollar right now versus 30 to a dollar 2 years ago. It can actually compete in price with its single engine counterparts.

 

[BON PLAN]

Reading the above post by Randomradio, if India indeed has extra slot of 150-200 aircrafts, is there any possibility of F-16s. It's not necessary for IAF to field all its inventory against PAF. Americans have made it clear that to F-16 tech gets to the Chinese hands. May be IAF can use F-16s against PLAAF? Is there a possibility?

I don't think so.
Chineese are pleased to well known F16, but what India can do with technological informations about plane china don't use? Against Pak, why not, but not against China.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Rafale: a contract with the UAE
By Michel Cabirol | 03/18/2016, 6:56

Abu Dhabi would shift a possible order for the Rafale to 2017 or 2018. It could be divided into three groups (three times 20 combat aircraft).

According to several sources, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) should not sign contracts this year Rafale (60 aircraft).However, the UAE are still very interested in the combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation. Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan has also promised again to Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian on his last visit to the Emirates, ordering to France.

It will be better in 2017, but probably after the presidential elections, even in 2018. The order could be divided into three tranches (3 times 20) with a first modernization of equipment purchased, says one in La Tribune. "It must be very patient " , says one in La Tribune.

The war in Yemen is expensive
Why wait until 2017 or 2018? The war in Yemen, which is here to stay, very expensive in the UAE. In addition, the UAE suffer from a price too low barrel. He lost more than half of its value since June 2014. On the New York Mercantile Exchange (Nymex), a barrel of "light sweet crude" (WTI) for April delivery was at 39.87 dollars Thursday.

Finally, the UAE, which are already very well equipped, use in fighting Yemen most of their weapons systems purchased in recent years, including the Mirage 2000-9 appreciated by Emirati pilots. They hold a small sixties

Rafale : un contrat avec les Emirats Arabes Unis s'éloigne en 2016

 

[Ankit Kumar]

MoD , put up a notice. Anything but single engines.

On F16s, I mean really ? Do they mean we should get a bird in our airforce which our arc enemy will be retiring by then ?

Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.

The SH is more expensive than the Rafale. It has very little chance. If it turns out they choose the SH, then IAF will instead ask for more Rafales instead.

It's kind of ironic. When MRCA first started in 2004, it was aimed at a light aircraft like M-2000. In 2007, the program was changed to MMRCA and was meant for heavy fighters like the Rafale and SH. During that time, single engine aircraft never stood a chance. Now, this second competition is for the single engine aircraft, the tables have turned, so the SH has no chance.

The SH/F-16 won't give much influence for the US in India, but it will make the strategic partnership much stronger. One of the criteria for the Make in India program is to make the jet entirely independent of its supplier country, and to bind the company to Indian laws. So after the jet is manufactured, the upkeep and the future of the jet will be determined by India.

The actual ToT to Indian companies is 50%. The remaining can be owned by the foreign company, but it needs to be manufactured in India as time passes.



Terrible idea, considering we can buy both.

The Mig-35 has a chance due to the drastic fall in the ruble. It's hovering at 68 to a dollar right now versus 30 to a dollar 2 years ago. It can actually compete in price with its single engine counterparts.

Compete ?
If as said by some members on my question about the possible cost of Mig35s after a drop , that's near 15 mil$, I take it to the upper limit at 20mil$ , then also ..... atleast 3 Mig35s against F16Blk61 and 4 Mig35s against 1 Gripen NG.

THATS HUGE numerical advantage, considering that quality wise too Mig35s do quite well.

I will choose Fulcrums any day over other fighters other than Rafale.

 

[Immanuel]

Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.

The SH is more expensive than the Rafale. It has very little chance. If it turns out they choose the SH, then IAF will instead ask for more Rafales instead.

It's kind of ironic. When MRCA first started in 2004, it was aimed at a light aircraft like M-2000. In 2007, the program was changed to MMRCA and was meant for heavy fighters like the Rafale and SH. During that time, single engine aircraft never stood a chance. Now, this second competition is for the single engine aircraft, the tables have turned, so the SH has no chance.

The SH/F-16 won't give much influence for the US in India, but it will make the strategic partnership much stronger. One of the criteria for the Make in India program is to make the jet entirely independent of its supplier country, and to bind the company to Indian laws. So after the jet is manufactured, the upkeep and the future of the jet will be determined by India.

The actual ToT to Indian companies is 50%. The remaining can be owned by the foreign company, but it needs to be manufactured in India as time passes.



Terrible idea, considering we can buy both.

The Mig-35 has a chance due to the drastic fall in the ruble. It's hovering at 68 to a dollar right now versus 30 to a dollar 2 years ago. It can actually compete in price with its single engine counterparts.

SH ony any given day is 20% cheaper in acqusition costs and around 30% cheaper in operational costs than the Rafale.

Rafale deal is hanging by the thread, if the price and liability stuff isn't solved, the deal will collapse. More MKI will be ordered and Mig-35 and SH have the highest chance for the subsequent contract. F-16 and Gripen for India are out of the question, IAF won't accept either.

Mig-35 is a prudent choice since for the same money of $9 billion for Rafales, we can easily have at the very least 150+ Mig-35s and MKI them with Israeli AESA, EW suite etc. However, will IAF accept another Russian bird witht he PAKFA coming in the future? This is a big question, hence SH has a higher chance if they play their cards right, unless LM does a 360 and offers the F-35 with local assembly.