Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Spectre]

So because of some idiots in the rabid media being willing to take payments in return for printing blatent lies India should cease all military deals? The pilots still flying MiG-21s and 27s will be be more than understanding that their lives are intentionally being put at risk because the poltical enviroment is not "conducive" to the solving of these issues. Why not just stand down the military now? With that kind of thinking it hardly makes sense to selectively fund such a toothless entity. You have themedia working both sides, on one hand they attack all imports on the other hand they attack all domestic projects, using your prescription military deals should immediately cease.

What deal in India isn't surrounded in this kind of muck because vested interests play these dirty games? What's your solution? Lay down and let them win?

Was this government not elected to be decisive? Running away is not leadership.

Once the deal is signed the voices disappear, it has happened again and again.


@PARIKRAMA I think I'll retire from here for a while, this nonsense has gone too far now and it's exactly what those vested interests were seeking. They have attacked the Rafale deal from every angle-cost, technical prowess, ToT, offsets, comprising dmoestic efforts etc and every time they have been rubbished but now they have created the sentiment @Spectre has exhibited- defeat. Not on any reasonable grounds but because it's just too much effort now to stick ton one's guns or to do what is best for the military, the situation isn't "conducive" to a deal so let's just let sleeping dogs lay. It's rather sickening really.


Keep up your great work my friend.


@anant_s @Levina @ni8mare @MilSpec @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar @Stephen Cohen

Tone down the rhetoric. There is lot more at play here than the Rafales, A government has only so much political capital and for heaven's sake vultures aren't even out yet - once the contract is finalized then you will the see the drama which would set back Indian defence procurement for decades.

We are just coming out of the shadow of St. Anthony and I would hate for the defence procurement to paralyzed again due to innuendos of kickbacks - they key tactic here is to

a. Push the smaller deals through first with minimum of noise - Gunships, Artillery, Small Arms, Logisitic Aircrafts etc

b. Establish the framework for Indignation. @PARIKRAMA wrote an eye opening piece on new Defence Acquisition Framework. Sure it ain't sexy like Rafales but this what will lay the foundation of a strong republic in days to come.

c. Push big ticket priority items through in the order below

1. S-400
2. Subs
3. Rafales
4. PAKFA

My suggestion to GoI is to buy Rafales in tranches - 18->36->54->90->126 with each tranche coming with iterative improvements, same base price but increasing total price inclusive of add-ons. 18 Rafales will keep the French busy for two years and by that time we will have clarity on domestic production.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

We have still not made New 9mm pistols available to our men,we still depend upon those heavy Browning Hi power.

Forget Rafale, The C295 deal is still no where near a done deal.

The first thing should be choppers,we are dammed due to our age old ones. And artillery.

And for gods sake, someone get a bamboo up the arse of those at HAL. Where the hell is SP2?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Tone down the rhetoric. There is lot more at play here than the Rafales, A government has only so much political capital and for heaven's sake vultures aren't even out yet - once the contract is finalized then you will the see the drama which would set back Indian defence procurement for decades.

We are just coming out of the shadow of St. Anthony and I would hate for the defence procurement to paralyzed again due to innuendos of kickbacks - they key tactic here is to

a. Push the smaller deals through first with minimum of noise - Gunships, Artillery, Small Arms, Logisitic Aircrafts etc

b. Establish the framework for Indignation. @PARIKRAMA wrote an eye opening piece on new Defence Acquisition Framework. Sure it ain't sexy like Rafales but this what will lay the foundation of a strong republic in days to come.

c. Push big ticket priority items through in the order below

1. S-400
2. Subs
3. Rafales
4. PAKFA

My suggestion to GoI is to buy Rafales in tranches - 18->36->54->90->126 with each tranche coming with iterative improvements, same base price but increasing total price inclusive of add-ons. 18 Rafales will keep the French busy for two years and by that time we will have clarity on domestic production.

You are absolutely right

A Bad deal will F**K up the entire procurement chain

It will damage us in the measure of what Bofors did BUT Multipled By TEN

Everything will come to a grinding halt where people will be hesitant to put their signatures
on files ; we are just coming out of a major logjam which we received from Antony

While This Government has managed to survive the " Tolerance / intolerance " drama
it wont survive a Mega deal going wrong

And Ambani being one of the parties involved ; the fire will engulf Modi

That is why Modi was right in scrapping the MMRCA

It was a cluster f*** in the making

Now the real point is what are we getting as offsets and TOT

And whether they are worth the risk

The MoD bureaucracy thinks that since we are spending a lot ; we can demand and get anything

That thinking may be right but it also makes the whole deal UBER complicated

It is a case of many wheels within wheels

1 Help with NLCA
2 Aircraft carrier technology
3 SSBN / SSN technology
4 Nuclear power reactors
5 Maitri SAM

And God knows what else is MoD dreaming off

While the POOR IAF only wants the RAFALE

Either the entire Rafale deal will be mega success or a collossal failure
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS : PAKFA will go through Before Rafale

So because of some idiots in the rabid media being willing to take payments in return for printing blatent lies India should cease all military deals? The pilots still flying MiG-21s and 27s will be be more than understanding that their lives are intentionally being put at risk because the poltical enviroment is not "conducive" to the solving of these issues. Why not just stand down the military now? With that kind of thinking it hardly makes sense to selectively fund such a toothless entity. You have themedia working both sides, on one hand they attack all imports on the other hand they attack all domestic projects, using your prescription military deals should immediately cease.

What deal in India isn't surrounded in this kind of muck because vested interests play these dirty games? What's your solution? Lay down and let them win?

Was this government not elected to be decisive? Running away is not leadership.

Once the deal is signed the voices disappear, it has happened again and again.


@PARIKRAMA I think I'll retire from here for a while, this nonsense has gone too far now and it's exactly what those vested interests were seeking. They have attacked the Rafale deal from every angle-cost, technical prowess, ToT, offsets, comprising dmoestic efforts etc and every time they have been rubbished but now they have created the sentiment @Spectre has exhibited- defeat. Not on any reasonable grounds but because it's just too much effort now to stick ton one's guns or to do what is best for the military, the situation isn't "conducive" to a deal so let's just let sleeping dogs lay. It's rather sickening really.


Keep up your great work my friend.


@anant_s @Levina @ni8mare @MilSpec @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar @Stephen Cohen

Mate ; for once I disagree with you

The consequences of a Bad Mega deal are INFINTELY worse than a small deal
of say 54 Rafales

You have no idea how Bad politics is in India

Once a mega deal goes wrong ; the Government will be unable to contain the fall out

It would be curtains for the Modi Sarkar

The amount is Huge with all offsets and TOT ; it would be 40 Billion PLUS

We need to exercise utmost caution

 

[PARIKRAMA]

After having an extended discussion with my French counterpart via my official mailbox, there is a unique suggestion given by her.. I am sure this makes sense but i dont know whether GOI/MOD will agree to such a structure or not.

The structure she proposed is as given below

Present Structure

India -------- buys from ---------> France government acting as a mediator -----------> Dassault Aviation

Essentially in this structure, DA being a private entity , the French Government will not be in a position to guarantee beyond a specific point especially if we are talking from the perspective of liabilities and negating a risk of order being withheld under any crisis situation.

There is a severance clause based on which if and when such a situation occurs when Government interferes and blocks the safe execution and delivery of this contract, a case of exit may be initiated beyond a pre agreed timeline.

As for the control over Dassault A is concerned for delivering as per the contract, the leverage it seems will be limited to at best a gentle nudge and some talks.

Proposed structure

India -------- buys from ---------> DGA -----------> Dassault Aviation
................................................... I
................................................... I
....................... Supported by France Government

Now this structure is much more dynamic. DA is essentially a sub contractor in the case of DGA which actually manages France's overall weapon programs with the industry. This basically changes the whole equation. Since DGA manages these weapon program across the whole industry, it has far more powerful control and can force a private entity like Dassault Aviation who also supplies to DGA its product Rafale, to be liable and honor all contractual commitments without creating any case of disruption and adhering to timelines as agreed in the contract.

Again as far as political decision making and risk associated with non supply or blockage is concerned, there will be a severance package clause associated.

But for the liability part, its much easier to make DGA the custodian and contact point who has control and leverage over the procurement of Rafales. This structure actually ensures that DA is forced to deliver as per the set contract as its larger contract till date with French Government is essentially controlled via DGA.

This structure also takes out the issue of a Sovereign Guarantee but incorporates a much better control from Indian side and far better liability adherence and risk mitigation.

Now how this is beneficial

1. The prices are set by DGA (as they have procured for the local Rafale program) and thus it will be the cheapest with lowest chance of any add on additional cost which was not covered when deal negotiations started in our present structure. Even in the case of customizations, there will be a better pricing as certain customizations may be co-shared like Engine Development.
2. Financing this deal gets SOE/Banks/FIs support backed by SG for default risk
3. The covenants of technology requirement, quality, availability, services, spares etc are to meet DGA requirement for French AF Benchmarks.
4. DGA is responsible for ensuring this contract seems in proper execution and all points as agreed in IGA and Contracts.
5. In case of contract being terminated due to a political decision of non supply, the severance clause kicks in and a major sum will have to be shelled out by Government of France after a fixed duration (for compliance slack period)
6. All support contracts for post sales also gets benefited as its essentially leveraging on French AF and Navy experience which helps fine tune finer points for maximum efficiency at economical opex terms

To me, it made a good sense looking at this proposed structure. Its basically saying DGA procures Rafales for FrAF and Fr Navy and GOI, making GOI an entity of extreme importance and a end user which is dependent on DGA.

@MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @randomradio @Spectre @Stephen Cohen @Didact

• From a discussion point of view, whats your thoughts?
• I am not sure if GOI will think like this or not but essentially how do you find this structure?.

But then also we can always discuss points and solution to every roadblocks...

 

[BON PLAN]

15-03-2016
More powerful engines for the Rafale ?
Posted in Air Force , Industry Laurent Lagneau The 15-03-2016 Learn more

For a long time in the negotiations to acquire 60 Rafale (negotiations still continue), UAE United Arab requested a more powerful engine of the combat aircraft developed by Dassault Aviation. To meet this wish, Snecma, Safran group subsidiary, has launched the M-88-X (and M-88-9) to carry the thrust provided by the M-88 engine of 75 kN to 90 kN. Then finally, the project went no further, the Emirates have abandoned their requirement on this point in the process.

So far, according to La Tribune, the idea of a more powerful engine for the Rafale made its way. The CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin, took the view that the time had come to "ask the question whether it is not appropriate to launch a study that would inflate a bit this motor [M -88, note]. Technically we can do. "
He added: "We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if this is possible. And if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable "to wear it.

Based on assumptions likely to be retained, it would be matter of developing a M-88 engine "8-9 tons of thrust" [80 90 kN, note]. And it could lead to changes at the Rafale air inlets.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Singapore Airshow 2016

 

[randomradio]

After having an extended discussion with my French counterpart via my official mailbox, there is a unique suggestion given by her.. I am sure this makes sense but i dont know whether GOI/MOD will agree to such a structure or not.

The structure she proposed is as given below

Present Structure

India -------- buys from ---------> France government acting as a mediator -----------> Dassault Aviation

Essentially in this structure, DA being a private entity , the French Government will not be in a position to guarantee beyond a specific point especially if we are talking from the perspective of liabilities and negating a risk of order being withheld under any crisis situation.

There is a severance clause based on which if and when such a situation occurs when Government interferes and blocks the safe execution and delivery of this contract, a case of exit may be initiated beyond a pre agreed timeline.

As for the control over Dassault A is concerned for delivering as per the contract, the leverage it seems will be limited to at best a gentle nudge and some talks.

Proposed structure

India -------- buys from ---------> DGA -----------> Dassault Aviation
................................................... I
................................................... I
....................... Supported by France Government

Now this structure is much more dynamic. DA is essentially a sub contractor in the case of DGA which actually manages France's overall weapon programs with the industry. This basically changes the whole equation. Since DGA manages these weapon program across the whole industry, it has far more powerful control and can force a private entity like Dassault Aviation who also supplies to DGA its product Rafale, to be liable and honor all contractual commitments without creating any case of disruption and adhering to timelines as agreed in the contract.

Again as far as political decision making and risk associated with non supply or blockage is concerned, there will be a severance package clause associated.

But for the liability part, its much easier to make DGA the custodian and contact point who has control and leverage over the procurement of Rafales. This structure actually ensures that DA is forced to deliver as per the set contract as its larger contract till date with French Government is essentially controlled via DGA.

This structure also takes out the issue of a Sovereign Guarantee but incorporates a much better control from Indian side and far better liability adherence and risk mitigation.

Now how this is beneficial

1. The prices are set by DGA (as they have procured for the local Rafale program) and thus it will be the cheapest with lowest chance of any add on additional cost which was not covered when deal negotiations started in our present structure. Even in the case of customizations, there will be a better pricing as certain customizations may be co-shared like Engine Development.
2. Financing this deal gets SOE/Banks/FIs support backed by SG for default risk
3. The covenants of technology requirement, quality, availability, services, spares etc are to meet DGA requirement for French AF Benchmarks.
4. DGA is responsible for ensuring this contract seems in proper execution and all points as agreed in IGA and Contracts.
5. In case of contract being terminated due to a political decision of non supply, the severance clause kicks in and a major sum will have to be shelled out by Government of France after a fixed duration (for compliance slack period)
6. All support contracts for post sales also gets benefited as its essentially leveraging on French AF and Navy experience which helps fine tune finer points for maximum efficiency at economical opex terms

To me, it made a good sense looking at this proposed structure. Its basically saying DGA procures Rafales for FrAF and Fr Navy and GOI, making GOI an entity of extreme importance and a end user which is dependent on DGA.

@MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @randomradio @Spectre @Stephen Cohen @Didact

• From a discussion point of view, whats your thoughts?
• I am not sure if GOI will think like this or not but essentially how do you find this structure?.

But then also we can always discuss points and solution to every roadblocks...

The DGA is involved in the contract process. That's all I know. I don't know the extent of their participation, but we have been constantly talking to the DGA since many months now.

 

[graphican]

Singapore Airshow 2016

Now this is what you call a performance demo. It was at-least 3 times better than JF-17 has performed so far.

 

[Taygibay]

DGA is a single entity that shares responsibility for selecting, planning, sometimes co-designing
most often development and always buying of all of the French armed forces weaponry.

Thus the above by randomradio is clear : it must be part of the GtoG deal.
In Parik's explanation too, its presence can as said take place en lieu of a
warrantee as it ensures equivalent service to the customer as France gets.

From that post #2749 of his, I'll point out this :

Essentially in this structure, DA being a private entity , the French Government will not be in a position to guarantee beyond a specific point especially if we are talking from the perspective of liabilities and negating a risk of order being withheld under any crisis situation.

... which is what I had said in post #2702 :

Because not all Rafale GIE corps are govt owned, that simple!
Of course, we could cook up an FMS type thinghie fer ya but it could take years ...

... before the latest narcissistic totalerror attack on this thread.

Yes, it is an equivalent warrantee as that sought and only possible
with a strategic partner to boot. It will not however be used for MII.

But then also we can always discuss points and solution to every roadblocks...

... assuming real roadblocks we could ( as HAL/DA liability issue in MMRCA )
but since most are imaginary, no we won't as you know, my friend!
Well, at least I won't ... save for untruths. You lot do as you pretty please of course!

One more cerebral/myocardial infarction that ended up only being gas, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

IIRC, DGA will buy the jets from Rafale and transfer it to the Indian govt.

 

[Taygibay]

^^^ From Dassault, yes but correct!

See it like this, in a normal mil transaction, an OEM sells either with approval or without blocking from govt
whereas here, Fr govt buys the jets and MinDef sells them to India. Still for the 36 GtoG deal only though!

The Make in India ones won't fit under that structure so that hopefully by the end
delivery through our mil of the first 36, GoI will be reassured enough on Dassault's
doubtful integrity?

I'm out, have fun gang, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

^^^ From Dassault, yes but correct!

See it like this, in a normal mil transaction, an OEM sells either with approval or without blocking from govt
whereas here, Fr govt buys the jets and MinDef sells them to India. Still for the 36 GtoG deal only though!

The Make in India ones won't fit under that structure so that hopefully by the end
delivery through our mil of the first 36, GoI will be reassured enough on Dassault's
doubtful integrity?

I'm out, have fun gang, Tay.

The Make in India will come entirely under the Indian MoD's DPP 2016.

Dassault will have to follow Indian laws in MII, so French procedures and laws will only come into the picture when some unique tech has to be transferred.

 

[SUDIP]

Another Bombshell from shukla!!!!! I really hate this jerk American sales agent. @PARIKRAMA

Broadsword: India may not buy Rafale: French official

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Another Bombshell from shukla!!!!! I really hate this jerk American sales agent. @PARIKRAMA

Broadsword: India may not buy Rafale: French official

You knw very well.. If I say something also I will be called a "fanboy"

But then also I will say I would go by trappier's confidence over shukla's confidence..

This line is straight picked from PDF.. He just changed the words

“If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.”

 

[BON PLAN]

Another Bombshell from shukla!!!!! I really hate this jerk American sales agent. @PARIKRAMA

No such news in the french newspaper today. But it doesn't make the Broadsword one's false....