Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[PARIKRAMA]

When the final deal is negotiated and signed, the Finance ministry will pay irrespective of the amount. Their representative will be part of the Negotiation committee.

MoD had put forward an estimate for the MMRCA, but since the cost has exceeded that, the whole MMRCA has been scraped. However the L1 for the MMRCA was the new base point for negotiations.

There is No "Tussle" between the MoD and Law dept. Both are doing their respective job. It is unlikely they resent each other for doing their job.

A parliamentary committee is impossible since this is not the UPA and that style of governance. In the Modi govt. everyone knows where the buck stops.

This is a govt. that has nothing to hide, so it is unlikely to be "frightened" by any delays or "allegations".

This is NOT the UPA, stop thinking like you would do for the UPA.



What a Moronic understanding of Sovereign Guarantee.

For a sale of LCA to Sri Lanka, the SG will not ensure HAL timely delivery, but that HAL will ensure delivery and that GoI will not interfere in the delivery schedule.

Lets say for e.g. if the US decides to aks India to delay the LCA supply to SL.

Being "pragmatic" and "realisti" does not translate to being "stupid" and "short shighted" and bending over.

Do you even read when the word "supply" side issues are written.. Sadly, you are yet to come up with anything credible but your jest and replies only showcases the lack of understanding for the case of SGs

What you dont want to say or rather not say is will India give a SG to SL saying we wont stop the supply of LCA under any conditions? First answer that and prove that with requisite clause under which an SG can be furnished for such a case..

 

[topgun047]

Do you even read when the word "supply" side issues are written.. Sadly, you are yet to come up with anything credible but your jest and replies only showcases the lack of understanding for the case of SGs

What you dont want to say or rather not say is will India give a SG to SL saying we wont stop the supply of LCA under any conditions? First answer that and prove that with requisite clause under which an SG can be furnished for such a case..

So instead of supporting GoI you are batting for Dassault ?If so, why ?
I would argue in favor of SG in case of Rafale and against it in hypothetical case of LCA to SL.

Real world does not work on fairness.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

IF GoI is pushing to sell the LCA to SL, then I have no doubt that if SL demands a SG from GoI, India will oblige.

Is that clear enough for you ?

India regularly gives Sovereign Guarantees for the following,

1. To improve viability of projects or activities with significant social and economic benefits, undertaken by government or non-government entities under Public Private Partnership.

2. ;To enable public sector companies to raise resources at lower interest charges or on more favourable terms;

3. To fulfill the requirement in cases where sovereign guarantee is a precondition for concessional loans from bilateral/multilateral agencies to sub-sovereign borrowers.


This is not a new thing, it only happens to be new to you and hence this attempt to make it sound like something Mind boggling.

LOL you just committed the suicide here..

Look at what you wrote.. all those points are for what end purpose in mind.. For the people and the economic well being of the country.. That is exactly defined for the criteria under which SG can be furnished..


I again say Back your statement that GOI can furnish a SG for a weapons platform sell under any clause that is defined for issuance of SG..

I had pasted the SG issuance clauses before few pages.. and sadly, your version does not fit into any of that..

So pls substantiate your assertion with proof

So instead of supporting GoI you are batting for Dassault ?If so, why ?
I would argue in favor of SG in case of Rafale and against it in hypothetical case of LCA to SL.

Real world does not work on fairness.

Superb, then i ask you also the same question.. Pls provide a link or a rule under which we oursleves can provide an SG or not.. Bcz every country will have its own rule book and approved law under which certain things can be given and certain things cannot be given..

Pls check with first India's own case as its something we have access to.. I will soon post here if French government conditions under which SG can be given.. Its requested from my french counterpart in my own office.. If its there, i will paste it for easier understanding ..

 

[Spectre]

What a Moronic understanding of Sovereign Guarantee.

For a sale of LCA to Sri Lanka, the SG will not ensure HAL timely delivery, but that HAL will ensure delivery and that GoI will not interfere in the delivery schedule.

Lets say for e.g. if the US decides to aks India to delay the LCA supply to SL.

Being "pragmatic" and "realistic" does not translate to being "stupid" and "short shighted" and bending over.

Oh Dear! Do you really think that's all SG means? you are confusing the political risk with financial risks. To be fair SG does cover political risks but that's not just it.

I can pretty confidently extrapolate that we are not worried about political risks on behalf of the French. I can't speak for the SG/BG India is insisting on but majority of it should be pretty standard boiler plate stuff regarding maintenance, availability, delivery schedules and exceptions like force majeure clauses.

India will never give a guarantee without an exit clause or exceptions ensuring supply of ACs as that would be like surrendering sovereignty and allow SL unheard degree of leverage over India.

@PARIKRAMA Iron Clad liability clause is an important issue and needs to be incorporated in the contract. I don't care if it is SG or BG or retention of money via an escrow account or a revolving LC mechanism via a bank (preferably Indian) which ensures need for certification from end user of satisfaction before releasing each tranche of money.

 

[topgun047]

LOL you just committed the suicide here..

Look at what you wrote.. all those points are for what end purpose in mind.. For the people and the economic well being of the country.. That is exactly defined for the criteria under which SG can be furnished..


I again say Back your statement that GOI can furnish a SG for a weapons platform sell under any clause that is defined for issuance of SG..

I had pasted the SG issuance clauses before few pages.. and sadly, your version does not fit into any of that..

So pls substantiate your assertion with proof



Superb, then i ask you also the same question.. Pls provide a link or a rule under which we oursleves can provide an SG or not.. Bcz every country will have its own rule book and approved law under which certain things can be given and certain things cannot be given..

Pls check with first India's own case as its something we have access to.. I will soon post here if French government conditions under which SG can be given.. Its requested from my french counterpart in my own office.. If its there, i will paste it for easier understanding ..

Whether India or France can do it is irrelevant.

Rules can be changed.So I ask you again whose side are you batting on?

India, France or fairness ?

 

[Spectre]

That was in reply to a specific question.

The current SG sought by the GoI seems to be a guarantee against bad faith or political risk. Not Financial risk.

All SG are conditional and that goes without saying. I don't see the need to state the obvious. Do you ?

If this is indeed so then it is idiotic. Conditionality aspect is important - some times conditions make the principal useless.

 

[rockstarIN]

All these agreement stuff really indicates we should not close LCA programme at any cost and should continue more R&D, investing more into new designs and air frames.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Because I have quoted the SG provide for Financial packages you idiot.

SG also extends to,

1. Performance guarantees given for fulfilment of contracts / projects awarded to Indian companies in foreign countries.

2. Performance guarantees given for fulfilment of contracts / projects awarded to Foreign companies in foreign countries


I cannot provide links yet,

Superb after 5 pages of posts you now went to financial packages part and yet before that you mentioned something else.. From yesterday you are unclear with your assumption that you know well about this topic when the reality is you know "ZERO" about the SG part

FYI - Any SOE or a Government backed Financial institute offering a loan is covered by SG that in case the public Bank faces a situation of delinquency and risks are so high that its operations itself is under question, The government will step in to bail the bank/financial institutes out..

In case of a weapons deal like Rafale sale in Egypt, Egypt was provided with Loans from French Banks which were backed by SG of French government that in case of default by Egyptian government /or non payment , French government will bear that liability

No where its mentioned that French government had given a SG for ensuring that supply of Rafales wont be stopped under any condition.

The SG in case of such financial loans are implicitly the risks which i had talked over last 5-6 pages and are the untold burden on every individual of a nation.

As for SGs furnished, pls check what kind of projects that can be given for..

FYI again pasting for your own read and understanding

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 179

The last point Vi and Vii are what you are quoting but look above under what conditions they can be given.

And now define how the SG backed financial package incorporates the non supply clause that you want France needs to bear and incorporates that "liability" clause.

Check again and pls give details.. i will wait for the time you back it up with proof..

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Whether India or France can do it is irrelevant.

Rules can be changed.So I ask you again whose side are you batting on?

India, France or fairness ?

I bat for the truth which is possible and is already there to substantiate every assertion.. If you dont believe my flags or you feel that i am less "Indian" then pls feel free to complain to the management here and in case you want ask them for my IP to trace me and meet me in person..

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I am not interested in participating with you in a drama where you pretend to teach SG by copy pasting from google. I would like to cut through all this BS.


I fail to understand your point. DO YOU HAVE A POINT ?

Are you saying we do not required SG from France ? Because you "trust" france and dassault ?

Do not deflect the question when you cannot counter any argument. I am asking again under what condition that an SG can be given by France for the Rafale sell to India where they guarantee the non risk of disruption of supply under any condition..

You talked about financial package in the form of SG. Again i said pls prove it.. You can keep dodging and dont relay the truth whereas i am piling on evidence one by one saying how its difficult and nearly impossible for any nation to guarantee such clause when the Law of land does not allow such cases of guarantee to be given and is not defined in Individual country's rule book in case of SG.

Here is a leading example of SG backed loan for any customer
+++

Ministry of Finance
xxx country name
SOVEREIGN GUARANTEE​

In consideration of xxxxx Employer (the "Facility User") having entered into a Facility Agreement dated..................for the amount ............ (in words: ..................................) a copy of which is annexed hereto, ("the Facility Agreement") ("the Creditor") whereby the Creditor has agreed to make available to the Facility User a credit facility (the "Facility") upon the terms and subject to the conditions contained in the Facility Agreement, the Ministry of Finance of the Republic of xxxx ("Guarantor") hereby agrees to pay to the Creditor, within 60 (sixty) days after the Creditor’s written demand all sums which may at any time be explicitly due and payable, but are not paid when due, by the Facility User under the Facility Agreement.

The Guarantor’s obligations under this Guarantee shall in no event exceed the sum of all payments which explicitly will become due and payable under the Facility Agreement.

Any demand addressed to the Guarantor hereunder by the Creditor shall be in a written form and indicate that the Facility User has failed to pay when due any or all sums explicitly payable under the Facility Agreement.

All payments here under shall be made within 90 (ninety) days after a demand being made here under and in the currency in which the respective amount claimed is expressed to be due and payable under the Facility Agreement, free of any deduction and withholding.

The Liability of the Guarantor here under shall be discharged and the Guarantee shall expire only by the complete payment by the Facility User or the Guarantor of all sums which may at any time be due and payable under the Facility Agreement.

This Guarantee is not assignable.

This Guarantee shall be governed and construed in accordance with ____ Law. All disputes arising from or in connection with this Guarantee shall be settled first by amicable negotiations in good faith. In case the said disputes are not settled within 60 (sixty) days from receipt of notification from either party, the said disputes arising in connection with this Guarantee shall be finally settled under the Rules of Conciliation and Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce, Paris by 3 (three) arbitrators. Each party will nominate 1 (one) arbitrator, the third arbitrator acting as chairman being appointed by the other 2 (two) arbitrator or __ failing such appointment of ___by the Court of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce. The arbitration shall be conducted in English language. Place of Arbitration shall be ____________ (Normally Geneva , Swizerland)

All communications of the parties shall be sent to the following addresses:

For the Guarantor to:

Ministry of Finance of the Republic of xxxx.
Address:
For the Creditor to:
..............................................................................................
..............................................................................................
..............................................................................................
..............................................................................................

This Guarantee will become valid and effective upon acknowledgement of receipt thereof by the Creditor in ............................................

This Guarantee is executed in two copies in the English language.

Issued in xxx , The Republic of xxxx on ...........................date

Minister of Finance


..................................... (Creditor) hereby acknowledges the receipt of this Guarantee in ......................on ......................and hereby accepts this Guarantee.

For and on behalf of


++++

As you see in simple most terms, the SG given for a financial backed package does no incorporate anything what liability you are proposing that France should hold .. At best the words used is "All disputes arising from or in connection with this Guarantee shall be settled first by amicable negotiations in good faith. "

This is precisely why i am again saying certain things cannot be given or incorporated so easily as we want.

About the trust part, the weapon deal payment term will have a signing amount, advance amount, payment of tranches and retention.. Each of those will be backed by Cash or FBG/PBG or both especially the retention part which will be released only when the entire fate of the deal execution is backed by results and timeline as dictated in the Contract agreement.

The best case of SG can be for the financial loan package for the deal by French government. Thats a risk for mitigating the scope of default not for non supply under any condition

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Let me put it in a language you can understand.

I don't give a FCUK about "under what condition" france can provide a SG for the Rafale deal.

THAT is THEIR PROBLEM, not Mine. How hard can it be to understand that ?




The Guarantee ENSURES that disputes are settled in GOOD FAITH. Otherwise the consequences are harsh.

THAT is why its such a great thing.

It is rather obvious that the current Guarantees does not fully cover our risk. It is for France to provide us when an acceptable solution if the solution we have proposed is not implementable.

Either way, its their problem and under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should it be our.



For the last time, keep you replies to 3-5 lines. Talk to the point rather than drone on and on about general gyan.

So now you are angry and pissed bcz you cannot substantiate your assertion with facts, figures, logic and rationality.. Only whims and fancies run by desires..

Superb.. I expected this from you..

 

[Spectre]

How is safe guarding our interest idiotic ?

If france has no intention to show bad faith or use it as a political weapon, what is their objection to the SG ?

SG is a problem for them only when their intentions are suspect and that seems to be the case.

I just told you so - No country gives a blanket guarantee and conditional Sovereign guarantees often contain so many loop holes and exit clauses that it becomes useless as a an article of ensuring good faith.

If French are dealing in bad faith and one has concrete suspicions that they are making a Bakra out of us then scrap the bloody deal and get it over with. Why would GoI want to deal with a duplicitous seller who is gonna sell you out for a slightest change in the headwinds?

This is not how we do business - legal framework is all well and good but no substitute for integrity in commerce. If one wants to screw you they can very well interpret the agreement differently and case will drag on in expensive arbitration for decades.

Look at how US deals with Pakistan! Despite them hating the guts of Pakistan for screwing them 10 ways to Sunday - they have still honored the legacy contract for balance of 18 F-16s.

@PARIKRAMA - With all due respect this is what I was talking about earlier when I said the time is not conducive for Rafale induction. There are many interests who are working over time to make non issues into issues. Yesterday it was X today Y and tomorrow Z. And this when the deal is not even signed. The fallout after the hardened contract is made public will be worse.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA - With all due respect this is what I was talking about earlier when I said the time is not conducive for Rafale induction. There are many interests who are working over time to make non issues into issues. Yesterday it was X today Y and tomorrow Z. And this when the deal is not even signed. The fallout after the hardened contract is made public will be worse.

Indeed my good friend you are 100% correct.. I wish we had a better way of dealing all this without creating such a confused state of affairs..

I sincerely hope now that its GOI/MOD or DM MP who can come out with a proper statement dispelling such news items and provide a clarity with which everyone has a clear understanding about the deal contours.

I know for sure DA does not like to comment much.. But then again Trappier confidence and smile for talking 36 and later 90 under MII showed how far the deal has matured..The normally secretive Trappier talking about it so openly showed confidence that its almost but done or else he is a smart man and would have kept mum.

Seeing this, I am cent percent sure that coming days more such anonymous news will pop up questioning the deal contours which are not there in public domain.

Lets see how things work out my good friend..

 

[Abingdonboy]

@PARIKRAMA - With all due respect this is what I was talking about earlier when I said the time is not conducive for Rafale induction. There are many interests who are working over time to make non issues into issues. Yesterday it was X today Y and tomorrow Z. And this when the deal is not even signed. The fallout after the hardened contract is made public will be worse.

So because of some idiots in the rabid media being willing to take payments in return for printing blatent lies India should cease all military deals? The pilots still flying MiG-21s and 27s will be be more than understanding that their lives are intentionally being put at risk because the poltical enviroment is not "conducive" to the solving of these issues. Why not just stand down the military now? With that kind of thinking it hardly makes sense to selectively fund such a toothless entity. You have themedia working both sides, on one hand they attack all imports on the other hand they attack all domestic projects, using your prescription military deals should immediately cease.

What deal in India isn't surrounded in this kind of muck because vested interests play these dirty games? What's your solution? Lay down and let them win?

Was this government not elected to be decisive? Running away is not leadership.

Once the deal is signed the voices disappear, it has happened again and again.


@PARIKRAMA I think I'll retire from here for a while, this nonsense has gone too far now and it's exactly what those vested interests were seeking. They have attacked the Rafale deal from every angle-cost, technical prowess, ToT, offsets, comprising dmoestic efforts etc and every time they have been rubbished but now they have created the sentiment @Spectre has exhibited- defeat. Not on any reasonable grounds but because it's just too much effort now to stick ton one's guns or to do what is best for the military, the situation isn't "conducive" to a deal so let's just let sleeping dogs lay. It's rather sickening really.


Keep up your great work my friend.


@anant_s @Levina @ni8mare @MilSpec @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar @Stephen Cohen

 

[PARIKRAMA]

So because of some idiots in the rabid media being willing to take payments in return for printing blatent lies India should cease all military deals? The pilots still flying MiG-21s and 27s will be be more than understanding that their lives are intentionally being put at risk because the poltical enviroment is not "conducive" to the solving of these issues. Why not just stand down the military now? With that kind of thinking it hardly makes sense to selectively fund such a toothless entity. You have themedia working both sides, on one hand they attack all imports on the other hand they attack all domestic projects, using your prescription military deals should immediately cease.

What deal in India isn't surrounded in this kind of muck because vested interests play these dirty games? What's your solution? Lay down and let them win?

Was this government not elected to be decisive? Running away is not leadership.

Once the deal is signed the voices disappear, it has happened again and again.


@PARIKRAMA I think I'll retire from here for a while, this nonsense has gone too far now and it's exactly what those vested interests were seeking. They have attacked the Rafale deal from every angle-cost, technical prowess, ToT, offsets, comprising dmoestic efforts etc and every time they have been rubbished but now they have created the sentiment @Spectre has exhibited- defeat. Not on any reasonable grounds but because it's just too much effort now to stick ton one's guns or to do what is best for the military, the situation isn't "conducive" to a deal so let's just let sleeping dogs lay. It's rather sickening really.


Keep up your great work my friend.


@anant_s @Levina @ni8mare @MilSpec @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar @Stephen Cohen

hold on my friend... There are lot more topics then just Rafale deal..

Dont just retire , better is to slow down and be selective in certain discussions.. Even i ydy evening night took a break and was looking at everythin else other than Rafale..

Check and see how @Vauban and @Taygibay been selective in this topic or even @Picdelamirand-oil who had avoided all the usual discussions and stick to only the good ones..

It would be a great shame if you retire from here.. I say better look at other topics more...

About mentality, it will change when the deal contours are revealed over time.. It makes sense to see that good day then to let go and forget about what we discuss here in this forum...