Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[topgun047]

They don't.

Also in case there were penalties levied, we won't know about it because it will be a state secret. We only know certain things because of CAG reports. Nobody willingly discloses such details.

So instead of conceding that perhaps you were wrong, you come up with a conspiracy theory that entails Defends Minister MP lying to the Parliament about no penalty paid by Cobham.

The fault is mine for trying to have intelligent debate on an anonymous forum.

You are welcome to carry on your self delusions (IMO)
Please continue spout them non stop.This forum does not ban for stupidity.
You will find no resistance from me from now on.

 

[Taygibay]

including a new engine.

Certainly not!

french are too proud of their product to reduce the prize

Below cost? That ain't pride, it's sound business practice!

He also goes on to say they're looking or a local partner for hoping to build 90 more units... !!

Exactly the same thing that was said by Éric Trappier mere days ago.
Ask Abingdon or Parik for link to the thread with the translations.

the Indian side would first take recourse to legal route against the companies without involving the French government.

Because not all Rafale GIE corps are govt owned, that simple!
Of course, we could cook up an FMS type thinghie fer ya but it could take years ...
Oh! Wait, as an Indian, your conversation opponent may like that better, right?

which it is now owing to a stronger geopolitical hand.

Not in the context of this buy by any stretch of imagination. Two years ago, maybe ...

I am going to go get some lunch and remove myself from this disucssion entirely.

Isn't it interesting that both foreign and desi commenters need to take breaks from this subject?
I wonder what it means?

Are you enlightened now ? As they say, common sense is not very common.

Even less than proper sense, it seems!

...focus on the real issue. Can you do that ?

You are the noob that won't heed to reality here! Shouldn't you re-read yourself and rephrase that?
Your tone from the onset ...

I am sorry to say, but your entire spin is absolute RUBBISH.

as here to a respected forum member whose view is becoming confirmed with every passing day
shows you in a bad light as do the immoderate uses of capitals and bold letters. The problem is you!

Any Guarantee is only to ensures execution of the contract, irrespective of the circumstances.

Go home and read the fine print on your life insurance contract for proof of the utter stupidity of that bolded part.
'T should keep this thread civil in the meanwhile as a bonus!

We need iron clad guarantees that will not be hostage to their "good will" and doubtful integrity.

If you want to buy a product from a maker that you deem of doubtful integrity,
you're a first class idiot and if your temper made you say it, you're a loudmouth!
Which is it?

What do do have is a Report that talks CLEARLY about,

No, not a report : another secretly sourced "official" Indian media-rrhea occurrence.
You must learn to differentiate between the two if only for your own sake and sanity.
I'm not a fan of Parrikar as he talks entirely too much and tangles himself with that
but at least, he's authorized to do so!
The multitude of civil servants babbling by the water fountain and coffee machine are not.
And neither are you save in discussions as this very one.

I get the feeling that in India, such anonymous sources would get elevated to deity status
by fanboys if they came out of the hush closet. In France, they'd be fired! Different strokes!

So good luck to you and better one yet to the rest, have a good day all, Tay.

P.S.

France does not have a PM.

Actually, we do but contrary to India, he works under the Prez on defence matters, not over.

 

[randomradio]

So instead of conceding that perhaps you were wrong, you come up with a conspiracy theory that entails Defends Minister MP lying to the Parliament about no penalty paid by Cobham.

The fault is mine for trying to have intelligent debate on an anonymous forum.

You are welcome to carry on your self delusions (IMO)

You are going off on a tangent. Every single defence deal we sign has guarantees in them.

Here there's a paid article which talks about having gotten secret govt documents from somewhere which says there are no guarantees of any sort with Dassault. Who are you going to believe? The govt or a paid article?

We are the biggest arms importers in the world. It is commonsense to expect we have guarantees in our deals.

Due to the secrecy and complete lack of information, you are using a negative that nobody can prove to defend your point, so the discussion is not intelligent in the first place. So yes the fault is yours if you believe you can make silly assertions and then expect others to prove you wrong.

Certainly not!

I am referring to the new 8.3T engine. This was confirmed by CNL. And I think Vstol also confirmed it.

I get the feeling that in India, such anonymous sources would get elevated to deity status
by fanboys if they came out of the hush closet. In France, they'd be fired! Different strokes!

If that anonymous source is a whistleblower against corruption, he will be welcomed. Of course, his career is dead a la Snowden. Probably deal in other ways too.

But you are correct about people not being able to differentiate between paid articles and the genuine stuff.[/QUOTE]

 

[Spectre]

Interesting discussion but inconsequential - most people here with some exceptions have never gone through international BGs in detail. International BG are altogether a different beast to enforce and even more so when they are performance BG and not financial BG. The second point is that in all the intergovernmental or multi-party contracts I have reviewed there are enough exit clauses to ensure that the BG is never invoked. What I am saying is that even if the French and Dassault give a BG - it is still not a firewall against bad faith.

The contracts are a matter or leverage and right now I have to say that the scales if not tilted towards French, they are balanced. In such a case we cannot expect to have our way all to the kingdom come with French.

I also saw some posters bringing in Russian Defence Suppliers and their guarantees - What a Joke!

 

[Taygibay]

Yes random but that engine will come for the whole program when it does.
So it shouldn't be a customization item in this deal for India is what I meant.

At worst you could put in some money to speed up the process but since
the Rafale made the MMRCA cut it should be a bonus point, no more!
Don't get caught in requesting extra stuff at an extra price without need?

Have a good day, Tay.

 

[$@rJen]

Exactly the same thing that was said by Éric Trappier mere days ago.
Ask Abingdon or Parik for link to the thread with the translations.

i always supected it, this must must be the reason behind DM is trying to reduce the cost of the 36 fighters so when we build 90 units under MII even more reduction of cost might take place

 

[Taygibay]

^^^ Yes with the caveat that Dassault links the MII to the second order whereas
an interpretation of your DM's statements ( sometimes nearly conflicting so S )
may lead one to think GoI links it to the first batch.

Not unsolvable in any case if the price is right.
Great day mate, Tay.

 

[Spectre]

Yes random but that engine will come for the whole program when it does.
So it shouldn't be a customization for India is what I meant.

At worst you could put in some money to speed up the process but since
the Rafale made the MMRCA cut it should be a bonus point, no more!
Don't get caught in requesting extra stuff at an extra price without need?

Have a good day, Tay.

Good point and I must say kudos to Dassault for generating all this pull for their product in an industry which is usually a buyer's market.

Right now Indians are behaving like a kid in candy store! which is understandable since it has been quite some time since we last had access to a sophisticated and polished product like Rafales. We defence enthusiasts are salivating like junkies for our next hit which in this case is a tiniest scrap of rumour regarding the deal. This deal has acted like a huge boost to our national ego which is always involved in pissing contest with our hosts in forum.

The ground reality is much more dour and there are following constraints

- Political Constraint - Pressure to get a better deal in terms of price and ToT then the erstwhile government in India. If it leaks that we are paying more than MMRCA then the current govt will be crucified. This is a major factor responsible for delay

- Financial Constraint - There are lots of class leading features in Rafale from what I understand from @randomradio and the other French Gentleman's (whose name I can't recall) posts. My point is that do we need additional goodies and if yes then at what incremental cost? At some point we have to find the best ratio between price and value. Combine this with Financial constraints which India faces by the virtue of having a huge standing military and the preference is clear for having the barest possible version at cheapest price which may not go well with defence enthusiasts.

- Technological Constraint - Many posters have advocated procuring Rafale's in number sufficient enough to warrant local production. Essentially MMRCA in a different skin.
While it sounds cool - the real fact is that due to the technological backwardness of Indian industry, we don't have the best of systems and processes, the whole vendor ecosystem runs on corruption and kickbacks, there is lack of capability to absorb sophisticated technology efficiently by HAL and private sectors are just novices (equivalent of budding sperm) in this area.

Once we understand all these constraints which India faces then it becomes clear why there is such a delay and why it will be for the best if we walk away with 36/54 Rafales off the shelf while we continue in our quest for AMCA

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

 

[Taygibay]

I must say kudos to Dassault for generating all this pull for their product in an industry which is usually a buyer's market.

Maybe kudos should be addressed to Lock-Mart instead?

Just sayin', fully agreed to rest of post, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

Yes random but that engine will come for the whole program when it does.
So it shouldn't be a customization item in this deal for India is what I meant.

Okay, I read my post and the statement seemed ambiguous. I see how one can get confused by it.

^^^ Yes with the caveat that Dassault links the MII to the second order whereas
an interpretation of your DM's statements ( sometimes nearly conflicting so S )
may lead one to think GoI links it to the first batch.

Not unsolvable in any case if the price is right.
Great day mate, Tay.

The price negotiations for this contract are linked to the MII. The Indian govt won't negotiate a second time for the same thing. I doubt there will be price correction, but I think Dassault will work it out on their own with the Indian partner.

Dassault will most likely choose the cheapest subcontractor, be it French or Indian, at the start before Indianizing the production at a later date. Spares and maintenance will eventually have to be Indianized even if the full production of the jet is not.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Good point and I must say kudos to Dassault for generating all this pull for their product in an industry which is usually a buyer's market.

Right now Indians are behaving like a kid in candy store! which is understandable since it has been quite some time since we last had access to a sophisticated and polished product like Rafales. We defence enthusiasts are salivating like junkies for our next hit which in this case is a tiniest scrap of rumour regarding the deal. This deal has acted like a huge boost to our national ego which is always involved in pissing contest with our hosts in forum.

The ground reality is much more dour and there are following constraints

- Political Constraint - Pressure to get a better deal in terms of price and ToT then the erstwhile government in India. If it leaks that we are paying more than MMRCA then the current govt will be crucified. This is a major factor responsible for delay

- Financial Constraint - There are lots of class leading features in Rafale from what I understand from @randomradio and the other French Gentleman's (whose name I can't recall) posts. My point is that do we need additional goodies and if yes then at what incremental cost? At some point we have to find the best ratio between price and value. Combine this with Financial constraints which India faces by the virtue of having a huge standing military and the preference is clear for having the barest possible version at cheapest price which may not go well with defence enthusiasts.

- Technological Constraint - Many posters have advocated procuring Rafale's in number sufficient enough to warrant local production. Essentially MMRCA in a different skin.
While it sounds cool - the real fact is that due to the technological backwardness of Indian industry, we don't have the best of systems and processes, the whole vendor ecosystem runs on corruption and kickbacks, there is lack of capability to absorb sophisticated technology efficiently by HAL and private sectors are just novices (equivalent of budding sperm) in this area.

Once we understand all these constraints which India faces then it becomes clear why there is such a delay and why it will be for the best if we walk away with 36/54 Rafales off the shelf while we continue in our quest for AMCA

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Solid points as usual my good friend... only part we all have issues is no one knows when AMCA project will get completed.. The other domestic project does nt inspire high confidence looking at shabby state of affairs.

IF the present fleet could sustain for a decade more may be yes what you say would make precise sense, but sadly with 21/27s going out and our domestic light weight bird crawling at snail speed for next few years, gives a lot of sleepless nights for any defense planner..

Unless of course we outsource that risk by giving a military base to a known west country who will beef it up at least the base and surroundings and we kind of agree for a borrowed protectionism..

Thus here is the biggest dilemma.. we want at our price and at our whims.. of course buyer seller has to come to a common ground for deal to happen.. But our media plays it up like flood waters taking on the emotions of our gullible masses from one direction to another every alternate day..

What i dont understand is how a 36/54 Rafales or say an example our neighbors 24 Su35 can change the course of deterrence.. Multiply and make it 200 yes it changes many perspectives for both countries.

For the time being i would like to wait.. indications are for a bigger number.. But then its difficult with everyday flash flood of anonymous information based articles and bashing of a company, a country to even some times blind patriotism...

Lets hope for the best.. whatever decision and outcome comes out, i can only hope for the best.. The mojo effect will wear off soon.. or you never know, a permanent mojo effect may also creep in....

 

[Taygibay]

The price negotiations for this contract are linked to the MII.

I knew that but was completing Spectre's thinking.
Many less attentive posters still miss the point today?

But in truth, the savings cannot be passed back to 36GtG.
That has a fixed price and all savings are to be had on MII.
Again refer to Q&A segment of Trappier's year recap press conf.

Interpretation was the key word in there anyhow. Tay.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

PS: I am already aware what was your original account as your style of writing and choice of words is very much easy to see the similarity..

Who is he ? Please tell us ; what was his earlier ID

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio

This news is disturbing in the sense that it seeks to present the IGA
as defective and having loop holes

Now the problem is that we have declared the IGA as a done deal
and only the price is being negotiated

How can we seek to re open the IGA

 

[randomradio]

- Technological Constraint - Many posters have advocated procuring Rafale's in number sufficient enough to warrant local production. Essentially MMRCA in a different skin.
While it sounds cool - the real fact is that due to the technological backwardness of Indian industry, we don't have the best of systems and processes, the whole vendor ecosystem runs on corruption and kickbacks, there is lack of capability to absorb sophisticated technology efficiently by HAL and private sectors are just novices (equivalent of budding sperm) in this area.

This backwardness is actually a good thing. One good aspect of Indian companies is human resources. This was proven during the Mumbai attacks where the staff from the Taj Hotel went beyond the call of duty trying to safeguard their guests during the midst of a terrorist attack instead of running away. There is a certain sense of ownership within the private industry.

The Ordinary Heroes of the Taj

During the onslaught on the Taj Mumbai, 31 people died and 28 were hurt, but the hotel received only praise the day after. Its guests were overwhelmed by employees’ dedication to duty, their desire to protect guests without regard to personal safety, and their quick thinking. Restaurant and banquet staff rushed people to safe locations such as kitchens and basements. Telephone operators stayed at their posts, alerting guests to lock doors and not step out. Kitchen staff formed human shields to protect guests during evacuation attempts. As many as 11 Taj Mumbai employees—a third of the hotel’s casualties—laid down their lives while helping between 1,200 and 1,500 guests escape.

This can be put to good use because of the fact that the Indian partner is a complete novice in the aerospace industry. They will be more than willing to learn Dassault's way. It is possible that Dassault may introduce new practices and technologies compared to what they have in France.

People in the private industry are potentially well-oiled drones with good work ethics.