Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

SH ony any given day is 20% cheaper in acqusition costs and around 30% cheaper in operational costs than the Rafale.

The SH costs more than the Rafale in operations. It only looked like the SH was cheaper because of the cost difference in Euro and Dollars during MMRCA time. Now both are almost on par. And eventually, those costs won't completely matter in India. The Rafale costs considerably less to maintain and operate.

The SH version India wants is not developed yet. Just building a 9G capable airframe will take a lot of time and money. The older SH B2 they sold to Australia costs $250M per aircraft and that's a decade old cost. If Boeing develops the SH into a Block 3, it will easily exceed the Rafale in terms of costs and still be less capable. SH needs more maintenance per flight hour and also requires overhaul. Rafale doesn't need overhaul, that alone saves about $50-75M in LCC.

MoD , put up a notice. Anything but single engines.

On F16s, I mean really ? Do they mean we should get a bird in our airforce which our arc enemy will be retiring by then ?



Compete ?
If as said by some members on my question about the possible cost of Mig35s after a drop , that's near 15 mil$, I take it to the upper limit at 20mil$ , then also ..... atleast 3 Mig35s against F16Blk61 and 4 Mig35s against 1 Gripen NG.

THATS HUGE numerical advantage, considering that quality wise too Mig35s do quite well.

I will choose Fulcrums any day over other fighters other than Rafale.

The Mig-35 is indeed cheaper, probably the cheapest right now. But it is Russian and that's the problem. The purpose of this second MMRCA is to get a very cheap jet to replace 300+ Mig-21s and Mig-27s. They are just splitting the numbers between LCA and this second MMRCA.

I'm in favour of cancelling the second MMRCA altogether and focus our resources on the LSA program.

 

[BON PLAN]

Oh, God no. The Aim-9X and Aim-120D are obsolete.

A little bit hard no?

The seeker of AIM9X is used in ASRAAM. but range shorter. A real short range AAM (ASRAAM has better range)
Range of AMRAAM 120 D is not so rididulous. but pk ????

a post found in Defense issues .....

AIM 120 D versus Meteor

December 15, 2012 posted by Picard 578

Design requirements

AIM-120 was started as a project to replace painfully ineffective AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-54 Phoenix (which are only effective against heavy bombers and (in case of later-iteration AIM-54) non-maneuvering fighters). It was to be relatively small BVR missile, so as to be able to be carried by the F-16.

Meteor is a result of joint European project to develop BVR missile to replace BAe Dynamics Skyflash. It was to be capable of shooting down a variety of targets, including low-RCS UAVs and cruise missiles, as well as maneuvering fighters of Flanker family. Another requirement was compatibility with Typhoon’s semi-recessed fuselage hardpoints, originally designed for AIM-120.

Effectiveness

AIM-120D is a further evolution of US AIM-120 BVR AAM series. It uses classic fuel+oxygen combustion mix, and does not rely on air flow from outside. In fact, it uses the same engine as AIM-120C, with improvements being mainly in electronics. However, it has been reported that engine malfunctions in cold environments – exactly where it is most likely to be used.

Meteor is a ramjet BVR AAM. As such, it does not carry onboard oxygen, but rather uses oxygen from surrounding air, allowing it to hold more fuel. Result is better acceleration, top speed, and range for a given missile size.

While Meteor may not have as large maximum range as AIM-120D (only figure I have for Meteor is “more than 100 km”, with 100 km being “optimal range”, versus public figure of 160 km for AIM-120D), it is faster, and thus more deadly at any range it can reach. This is important, as BVR missiles are never fired at maximum range due to meager Pk against fighter aircraft. However, range varies on altitude, with best range for both missile types being achieved in high-altitude rare-atmosphere conditions, where maneuverability is almost nonexistent; at sea level, range is not much more than visual. Velocity loss after burn-out also varies with altitude, with 25% of current velocity being lost every 150 s at 24 km, 25 s at 12 km and 5 s at sea level.

Range can be reduced even further if enemy uses jammers. Thus, large NEZ (no-escape zone) is far more important. (To explain terminology here, NEZ is NOT a zone where a hit is guaranteed; rather, it is a zone where enemy aircraft cannot outrun missile, waiting for it to run out of fuel, but rather has to outturn it). Higher speed allows it to reduce time to target, and thus opponent’s reaction time, as well as to retain energy for longer after engine has burned out.

In fact, Meteor’s NEZ was to be three times as large as that of AIM-120B. Active version of missile is equipped with radar Aster, designed to shoot down cruise missiles, which thus can be used against targets with low RCS.

However, both missiles are BVR, making their actual value questionable. In fact, jamming and IFF issues mean that BVR missiles are far more likely to be used as a WVR weapon than in their intended purpose. While AIM-120 did achieve 6 BVR kills out of 13 firings, all but one were against non-maneuvering targets with no ECM and no awareness of missile. By comparing difference in Pk between maneuvering and non-maneuvering targets for AIM-9, it can be concluded that AIM-120 will achieve Pk of at most 11%; however, it is larger and heavier than AIM-9, as well as more vulnerable to countermeasures, so even that is an optimistic estimate.

EDIT: Meteor is estimated to have a range of 250-300 km with ballistic flight path, which suggests an improvement over initially cited goal. That being said, best option is to wait for performance figures after it enters service.

 

[Immanuel]

The SH costs more than the Rafale in operations. It only looked like the SH was cheaper because of the cost difference in Euro and Dollars during MMRCA time. Now both are almost on par. And eventually, those costs won't completely matter in India. The Rafale costs considerably less to maintain and operate.

The SH version India wants is not developed yet. Just building a 9G capable airframe will take a lot of time and money. The older SH B2 they sold to Australia costs $250M per aircraft and that's a decade old cost. If Boeing develops the SH into a Block 3, it will easily exceed the Rafale in terms of costs and still be less capable. SH needs more maintenance per flight hour and also requires overhaul. Rafale doesn't need overhaul, that alone saves about $50-75M in LCC.

The Mig-35 is indeed cheaper, probably the cheapest right now. But it is Russian and that's the problem. The purpose of this second MMRCA is to get a very cheap jet to replace 300+ Mig-21s and Mig-27s. They are just splitting the numbers between LCA and this second MMRCA.

I'm in favour of cancelling the second MMRCA altogether and focus our resources on the LSA program.

Australia – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

The Aussies got the SH for around 4 billion including service, spares and weapons, thats around 165 million per bird while the Rafale's figures quoted by the French are 12 billion for 36, that is 333 million per bird. Double the SH's cost.

The SH in the USN costs around 10K per maintenance hr, over 6K cheaper than the Rafale.

SH Advanced is already under testing in various phases. CFTs, internal IRST, Large Panel Displays, AESA and Stealth Pods are already in validation. Regardless, the block 3 will cost around 70 million per unit while the flyaway price of the Rafale being quoted for India is around 140 million. The SH also brings in atleast 2-3 billion in savings because of engine commnality with the LCA MK-2. Moreso, the SH's flying envelope has an eletronic limit of 7G but the airframe if good for 9G, this is a non issue.

The Super Hornet on any given day is just as capable as the Rafale and comes off the shelf ready to deploy the best of Unkil sam's inventory everything from CBU-105 SFWs, AAGRMs, SLAM-ERs to SDBs. The Growler being the only aircraft to have a confimred Aim-120 kill on the Raptor, in A2A the SH can more than handle itself against the Rafale especially with weapons like Aim-120D.

The Apg-79 out performs the RBE2 any given day and its also being upgraded. Spectra is overrated, good enough for Soviet era radars but not good enough for modern arrays. Sure, the Rafale has a slight range and payload advantage but looses out in terms of cost and brings weapon versatility that Rafale doesn't have without expensive and time consuming weapons integration excercises.

As for the over-haul, ridiculous claims, SH is good for 6000 hrs before SLEP and maintenance hrs per flight hour is around 5-10 hours which is comparable to the Rafale and EF.

USN has been using the SH hard for the last 10 years and the aircraft is considered one of the most reliable, the number of flight hrs acculmated everyday is way beyond the scale of the Rafale.

Navy Getting 'Smarter' About Tanking Mission As Super Hornets Approach 6,000 Hours - USNI News

Rafale also have a limit of 6000hr before MLU or over-haul is needed, you would be quite silly to imagine IAF won't have to overhaul the French poodle or that the French won't screw us at that given day with the cost of MLU. Let's not even go into the cost of MLU for the Rafale, we'll end up paying 70% of the cost to of a new aircraft to upgrade these down the line.

Point is Rafale is a good aircraft, a 4.5 gen aircraft and its just one of many. It has its pros and cons, for the money its not the best value. For the price of 1 Rafale, we can get 2 SHs or 4 Mig-35 or 3 MKI.

 

[Taygibay]

Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.

No, he did not! Unless you're over 40 years old, I spoke both languages before you were born
and am qualified to translate both ways between the two.
What Éric Trappier said was that Rafale GIE partners would delocalize activity to India for MII.
He did not specify percentages and no jet maker will do so ( 90+% ) for any current high end product.
Check SAAB's deal in Brazil just for fun.

SH ony any given day is 20% cheaper in acqusition costs and around 30% cheaper in operational costs than the Rafale.

And on any given IAF trial day doesn't make the cut; it better be cheaper, right?
Desi fanboy goes to market and buys rotten apple because it costs 20% less!
Desi fanboy gets home and wife says : That pie will taste funny and make us sick!
IAF is the wife here!

Of course, if you believe things like this :

you would be quite silly to imagine IAF won't have to overhaul the French poodle or that the French won't screw us at that given day

... you'd be better off buying Russian crap or infeudate yourself to a new master!
And, I never used derogatory terms for your country but as you just allowed me :

if the Rafale is a poodle to snicker at then the LCA is a cockroach to crush underfoot!​

Happy now?

It's Rafale or it's stop the deal and begin anew. Contrary to what some tried to impute,
I don't own shares in Dassault nor am I on their payroll. Just do the right thing for India
... if you can stop spinning fairy tales long enough to make up your mind that is!

This is getting quite ridiculous.
Good day to those sane enough to accept it, Tay.​

 

[randomradio]

No, he did not! Unless you're over 40 years old, I spoke both languages before you were born
and am qualified to translate both ways between the two.
What Éric Trappier said was that Rafale GIE partners would delocalize activity to India for MII.
He did not specify percentages and no jet maker will do so ( 90+% ) for any current high end product.
Check SAAB's deal in Brazil just for fun.

Geez, bro, relax. Instead you could have just asked where I got it from.

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 166

When I look at Trappier interview he seems surpised by the question about the number and he have to answer something but he doesn't want to. So he refer to MMRCA to give an order of magnetude. It seems also that 100% will not be build in India at the begining but it seems achieviable to Trappier this 100% at the end of the 90. And then India can ask for more.

A little bit hard no?

The seeker of AIM9X is used in ASRAAM. but range shorter. A real short range AAM (ASRAAM has better range)
Range of AMRAAM 120 D is not so rididulous. but pk ????

The seekers are good enough, no problem with that. AMRAAM has older seekers, but even that's fine.

But in terms of kinematics, the ASRAAM and I-Derby ER both beat the Aim-9/Aim-120 combo by a healthy margin. Both ASRAAM and I-Derby have more range, better engines etc.

The problem with Aim-120D is the lack of dual pulse motors.

Australia – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

The Aussies got the SH for around 4 billion including service, spares and weapons, thats around 165 million per bird while the Rafale's figures quoted by the French are 12 billion for 36, that is 333 million per bird. Double the SH's cost.

That's only for equipment. The final contract size was
Australia's new Super Hornet warplane unveiled

Australia's first new Super Hornet to be acquired under a $US6 billion ($A7.6 billion) deal has been unveiled in a glitzy ceremony held in a cavernous aircraft hangar at the Boeing factory in St Louis, USA.

And this was far back in 2009. It's much higher now.

The SH in the USN costs around 10K per maintenance hr, over 6K cheaper than the Rafale.

That was when Euro was 1.45 to a dollar. The USN SH doesn't have half the stuff the Rafale has and still far more expensive. And the Rafale rates that were revealed were not peacetime rates, those were wartime rates.

Use more relevant and recent information.
Boeing remains confident in additional F/A-18 orders

Operating costs are also less — about $16,000 to $17,000 per flight hour, says Gibbons.

So, yeah, Rafale is cheaper. It should be considerably less than $10,000 in IAF service.

you would be quite silly to imagine IAF won't have to overhaul the French poodle

The French poodle doesn't need overhaul.

or that the French won't screw us at that given day with the cost of MLU.

According to IGA, we will be paying as much as the ADLA. So if they screw us, they screw themselves.

I forgot. You are Septimus, right? Only you can name all obsolete weapons, obsolete aircraft and obsolete practices and claim them to be better than the Rafale.

Anyway, this contract has nothing to do with the Rafale, so there's no point comparing the two. Only costs matter now and it is obvious to anybody that the SH is more expensive in LCC terms.

 

[Taygibay]

Instead you could have just asked where I got it from.

Yes, an answer by Picdel about a cross-post from elsewhere which both mentioned but did not link to.
Classic Indian journalism cough cough technic!

Do provide the interview and if Trappier said as much meaning full production from scratch not assembly
of transferred kits, I'll recognize my error in jumping at you and relax!

But do get this as well, even Picdel is not a source by himself. I would relish a chat with him and
especially on his work as I would likely learn a darn lot but he is not the Pope ( infaillible - infallible ).
I trust he'd question me also if I made unsubstantiated claims and in fact value that attitude.
So in order not to accidentally shoot the messenger, please provide a link?

BTW, you tried that before :

I cannot and will not speak for him but I highly doubt that Pic shares your view
that Dassault wants to transfer all Falcon activity to India.

About the exact same claim and without proof already a few posts before the one
you quoted above in answer!
It is part of what initially got me not to trust you and now you quote yourself spouting
rubbish to back more rubbish? Oh, well, it worked since I answered. My bad!

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i think what Trappier may have hinted is more for localisation part which is what i have always said before.. Localisation will happen under MII as the supply chain will get firm up with orders in hand..

What needs to be very clear is localisation and technology absorption are two different things...Localisation in terms of economic value may not be very significant as particular hi cost items at the very best possibility will be assembled with partial localisation of certain component level manufacturing.

But then perhaps if the line order with tranches reaches closer to say 200, there is a good possibility more tech absorption or partial tech absorption will lead to much higher localisation in hi cost items. That will push the overall localisation in terms of economic value.

What i would be very keen is to see if under MII Safran assembles M88 -X variant in india or not.. GE in its Chikan Plant in Pune assembles the 404 and has repeatedly said 414 will also be build in India (partial assembly with localized components). So I am keen to see a similar type of setup to begin with under MII.. It makes sense for Safran after all even for 90 jets its 180 engines upfront and counting spares and replacements its easily 400+ for MII first Tranche.. By the time everything gets over Safran may be sitting with around 1000 Engines order for India.. Thus it makes sense for them to assemble them her and increase localisation step by step..

ABOUT CPFH @Immanuel, adding to what @randomradio is saying,

its already proven that Rafale CPFH as of 2015 is less than 10K USD and all that from Senat Report.. In fact closer to USD 9.7K. And MKI was last year Aero India video declared around USD 12K whereas M2K was said to be USD 3K

Here are the links for the same

The calculation credit goes to @Vauban and @Picdelamirand-oil who provided the necessary pointers and data from Senat report on the same

In fact the more Rafales are in usage with different AFs and more Flying hour it clocks, i wont be surprised to see the CPFH falling anywhere in the range of USD 7000 - 8000.

With IAF flying hours, that range should be easy to attain looking at M2K CPFH at USD 3K

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 124



For MKI and M2K CPFH

Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 223

 

[Taygibay]

^^^

i think what Trappier may have hinted is more for localisation part which is what i have always said before.. Localisation will happen under MII as the supply chain will get firm up with orders in hand..

What needs to be very clear is localisation and technology absorption are two different things...Localisation in terms of economic value may not be very significant as particular hi cost items at the very best possibility will be assembled with partial localisation of certain component level manufacturing.

But then perhaps if the line order with tranches reaches closer to say 200, there is a good possibility more tech absorption or partial tech absorption will lead to much higher localisation in hi cost items. That will push the overall localisation in terms of economic value.

 

[randomradio]

Yes, an answer by Picdel about a cross-post from elsewhere which both mentioned but did not link to.
Classic Indian journalism cough cough technic!

Do provide the interview and if Trappier said as much meaning full production from scratch not assembly
of transferred kits, I'll recognize my error in jumping at you and relax!

But do get this as well, even Picdel is not a source by himself. I would relish a chat with him and
especially on his work as I would likely learn a darn lot but he is not the Pope ( infaillible - infallible ).
I trust he'd question me also if I made unsubstantiated claims and in fact value that attitude.
So in order not to accidentally shoot the messenger, please provide a link?

I lost the link ever since IDF shut down. Even though the site's back, about 1-1.5 months of data has been lost. It was a different French interview, and it wasn't in India. It was by a French TV channel with Trappier as their guest. I should have edited my post here with the link, but I forgot to do that.

Anyway, here's the post that was cross posted from IDF.
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 165

The rest of the post with the link was lost to the Internet Gods.

If @Picdelamirand-oil has it, it will help, but I'm afraid I can't help you with the link. It was entirely in French, so I can't search for it either.

BTW, you tried that before :

Yes, in the very same post you replied to, I have provided links for the cost of SH.

Btw, the purpose of this contract and the second MMRCA is to get more Indian production than in the MKI program. There may be certain equipment that may not be manufactured in India, like the landing carriage and ejection seat, but the plan is to manufacture everything that's important on the Rafale in India itself.

A word of advice, next time just ask instead of attacking somebody's age or the language he speaks or comparing somebody to the pope just because you don't agree with something.

What i would be very keen is to see if under MII Safran assembles M88 -X variant in india or not..

Safran had said publicly that they planned to manufacture 100% of the engine in India during MMRCA.

It is possible that they may have the same plans under the MII program also.

its already proven that Rafale CPFH as of 2015 is less than 10K USD and all that from Senat Report.. In fact closer to USD 9.7K. And MKI was last year Aero India video declared around USD 12K whereas M2K was said to be USD 3K

To add to that, I think the French cost for M-2000 was $8000 for the ALDA. Considering the M-2000s in India rely on localized and imported spares, it is possible that Rafale's CPFH will also significantly reduce. Most likely by half.

Btw, thanks for posting the image. @Picdelamirand-oil had asked for it, but I didn't have it at the time.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Safran had said publicly that they planned to manufacture 100% of the engine in India during MMRCA.

It is possible that they may have the same plans under the MII program also.

To add to that, I think the French cost for M-2000 was $8000 for the ALDA. Considering the M-2000s in India rely on localized and imported spares, it is possible that Rafale's CPFH will also significantly reduce. Most likely by half.

Btw, thanks for posting the image. @Picdelamirand-oil had asked for it, but I didn't have it at the time.

Ya we were all wanting that data piece for MKI part for some good amount of time.

About CPFH costing for M2K thats the same thing which @Taygibay pointed out.. in that thread itself..

Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 223


I think more than localisation, IAF way of calculation may be a bit different as certain heads are classified differently whereas for France all are clubbed.. For IAF there are different heads like repair and maintenance which I think is not taken into account while calculating the CPFH. But even if i consider those heads the actual CPFH at mest would be about 25% more or for MKI its more like USD 12000-14700 kind of range.

Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 223

Judging by that logic, i am pretty confident we will see ~ USD 7K + /- 10% CPFH figure for Rafale (approx twice of M2K+ ~5-10%).

Ironically, if i look at today the CPFH for all these jets should be very less across the globe as Crude price has fallen drastically. So in reality, a new info graphic with figures of last 6 months should be very very favorable for certain fighters especially in Single engine category. Who knows with such crude price, Raffy CPFH may show USD 5000-6000 also and SU30 MKI may be around USD 10K..

I wont comment on M2K as if i say its USD 2K looking at a similar analogy, it looks as if its a hybrid car rather than a jet!!

 

[Taygibay]

A word of advice, next time just ask instead of attacking somebody's age or the language he speaks or comparing somebody to the pope just because you don't agree with something.

Great advice indeed for ... I did not attack you nor did my pope analogy attack Pic!
If that is what you understood, I know where our differences come from.
And I didn't ask and you still referred me to a lost offering to Internet Gods so ...


Just forget both it and me, It will make your life so much easier!

 

[randomradio]

Judging by that logic, i am pretty confident we will see ~ USD 7K + /- 10% CPFH figure.

Ironically, if i look at today the CPFH for all these jets should be very less across the globe as Crude price has fallen drastically. So in reality, a new info graphic with figures of last 6 months should be very very favorable for certain fighters especially in Single engine category. Who knows with such crude price, Raffy CPFH may show USD 5000-6000 also and SU30 MKI may be around USD 10K..

I wont comment on M2K as if i say its USD 2K looking at a similar analogy, it looks as if its a hybrid car rather than a jet!!

The Rafale's cost that Picdel posted seems to be only for maintenance and spares, most likely does not include wages, fuel etc.

So, we don't seem to have enough information for a head to head comparison. I suppose whatever price they come up with in France, we are practically guaranteed to pay lesser.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The Rafale's cost that Picdel posted seems to be only for maintenance and spares, most likely does not include wages, fuel etc.

So, we don't seem to have enough information for a head to head comparison. I suppose whatever price they come up with in France, we are practically guaranteed to pay lesser.

That is true... Surely i believe anything around 50-66% (1/2 to 2/3rd) of it should be what IAF figure may show.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

That is true... Surely i believe anything around 50-66% (1/2 to 2/3rd) of it should be what IAF figure may show.

Hello Sir what Are your sources telling you

Any luck so far
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@PARIKRAMA @randomradio

Even UAE deal is getting postponed

UAE Could Defer Dassault Rafale Order to 2017 or 2018

 

[Blue Marlin]

Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.

The SH is more expensive than the Rafale. It has very little chance. If it turns out they choose the SH, then IAF will instead ask for more Rafales instead.

It's kind of ironic. When MRCA first started in 2004, it was aimed at a light aircraft like M-2000. In 2007, the program was changed to MMRCA and was meant for heavy fighters like the Rafale and SH. During that time, single engine aircraft never stood a chance. Now, this second competition is for the single engine aircraft, the tables have turned, so the SH has no chance.

The SH/F-16 won't give much influence for the US in India, but it will make the strategic partnership much stronger. One of the criteria for the Make in India program is to make the jet entirely independent of its supplier country, and to bind the company to Indian laws. So after the jet is manufactured, the upkeep and the future of the jet will be determined by India.

The actual ToT to Indian companies is 50%. The remaining can be owned by the foreign company, but it needs to be manufactured in India as time passes.



Terrible idea, considering we can buy both.

The Mig-35 has a chance due to the drastic fall in the ruble. It's hovering at 68 to a dollar right now versus 30 to a dollar 2 years ago. It can actually compete in price with its single engine counterparts.

the f18 is more expensive than the rafale is that unit cost vs unit cost or is that 36 rafales vs 100+f18's ?
ok so you say single engined fighters have a good chance, so what about the gripen? [im forgetting the f16 here]
all of this is now a sh!t show. you were supposed to get the rafale and call it a day. now you have tom, d!ck and harry and his mate paul trying to sell jets there.
the roi investors must put back to india is 50% not the tech. the tech is seen as an investment.

the mig 35 is perfect. you already have the mig 29 to intragation is no problem its got the latest kit. its dirt cheap, much less than the rafale. the russain spean the language of the indian's. they know how to do business with you as they have been doing for a very long time.the french kinda know but its still rust and still doing business under the pretense of selling carpets. guarantied supply. if your dumb enough to go to war the french will stop deleveries but the russains wont.