Indian Air Force News & Discussions

[mkb95]

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA
any idea who is the guy being explained?
what is the possibillty of it is being about export of dhruv or lch?

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA
any idea who is the guy being explained?
what is the possibillty of it is being about export of dhruv or lch?

This is during a visit to Thailand and it looks to be a Thai pilot.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Night Picture of Rear Cockpit of Su-30SM

Credit to original poster

@Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @anant_s @SpArK @Vauban @Taygibay

The WSO view for MKI should be same..

I am wondering the loadout.. is it 4 missiles in both wings and 1 centerline?

 

[Taygibay]

Unless it's in the line of symbols at bottom right of the top screen
I don't think the loadout is shown in that image! Not sure though!
We'd need the WSO to cycle his screens' content to be sure ...

Here is one of the MKI jump seat for sure :
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/pix/su30mkcockpit3_c.jpg

Great evening Parik and all, Tay.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Taygibay

After lot of thinking i remembered why i felt that load out in the picture
This is the original extraction of that picture in post #3333,

and this is the reason i felt a similarity

You know i remembered seeing the movie "independence day" again to get that SS as i remembered POTUS firing missiles in the end time to the giant ship (when Will Smith is on the mother-ship after implanting the virus)..

Of course this is way too stupid way of comparing but hey movies do leave images in your mind.....

Lol.. M sure you will burst out laughing...

 

[Taygibay]

Kinda

...

 

[Carlosa]

Night Picture of Rear Cockpit of Su-30SM

View attachment 296950

Credit to original poster

@Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @anant_s @SpArK @Vauban @Taygibay

The WSO view for MKI should be same..

I am wondering the loadout.. is it 4 missiles in both wings and 1 centerline?

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA etc

Question guys, do you know what the cost is of a flying hour for the SU-30MKI?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA etc

Question guys, do you know what the cost is of a flying hour for the SU-30MKI?

Originally said the data of CPFH among IAF operated jets in Aero India 2015 held on 16-18 Feb 2015

Picture not very clear but here is the pic

According to it as on 2014 end data, (since the Aero India happened in Feb 2016)

• SU 30 MKI CPFH is USD 12000 for IAF
• Mirage 2000 CPFH is USD 3000 for IAF

Video on Demand

Check at 1:32:30ish in the video

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx @nair @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil

I am sure IAF planners looking at CPFH of Mirage 2000 @3000 USD is most probably hoping to have Rafales CPFH around USD 6000-7000 to keep it around 40-50% cheaper than MKI @12000 USD.

And this is an authentic source.... Now we know why IAF loves French Jets

 

[Carlosa]

Originally said the data of CPFH among IAF operated jets in Aero India 2015 held on 16-18 Feb 2015

Picture not very clear but here is the pic

View attachment 298230

According to it as on 2014 end data, (since the Aero India happened in Feb 2016)

• SU 30 MKI CPFH is USD 12000 for IAF
• Mirage 2000 CPFH is USD 3000 for IAF

Video on Demand

Check at 1:32:30ish in the video

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx @nair @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil

I am sure IAF planners looking at CPFH of Mirage 2000 @3000 USD is most probably hoping to have Rafales CPFH around USD 6000-7000 to keep it around 40-50% cheaper than MKI @12000 USD.

And this is an authentic source.... Now we know why IAF loves French Jets

Wow, thank you man!!! What a difference, I'm really surprised about the Mirage 2000, that's a very low number.

 

[Taygibay]

Parik, could you try to find out what is included in the IAF calculus of CPFH?

Is it consumables + wages solely or does it include spares and/or infrastructure and so on?

Because honestly, the difference between the two types is almost coherent with size of ACs.
Then the 3,000$ for the Mirage 2000 is reasonable but on the low side as noted by Carlosa.
For ref, AdlA M2000s are listed at 8000€/h vs 14000 for Raffys.
Similarly, 12Kper hour for the Sukhois is not excessive, in fact, even a little low compared to
the reported maintenance problems for the type.

Knowing this won't change your conclusion but should help us all understand IAF's ways and
make various processes easier to quantify and evaluate quality wise in the future.

Thanks in advance, Tay.

 

[Carlosa]

Originally said the data of CPFH among IAF operated jets in Aero India 2015 held on 16-18 Feb 2015

Picture not very clear but here is the pic

View attachment 298230

According to it as on 2014 end data, (since the Aero India happened in Feb 2016)

• SU 30 MKI CPFH is USD 12000 for IAF
• Mirage 2000 CPFH is USD 3000 for IAF

Video on Demand

Check at 1:32:30ish in the video

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @scorpionx @nair @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil

I am sure IAF planners looking at CPFH of Mirage 2000 @3000 USD is most probably hoping to have Rafales CPFH around USD 6000-7000 to keep it around 40-50% cheaper than MKI @12000 USD.

And this is an authentic source.... Now we know why IAF loves French Jets

Another question, how much of a difference does the 2D vector nozzles of the engine can make on the cost of the flying hour compared to flying without using them.

And also, how the 2D vector nozzles of the engine make a difference on the life of the engine. I asked because I used to read that the engine life can go down a lot when using them.

 

[nair]

And this is an authentic source..

This is interesting, as you said no wonder we are sticking on to french fighters.....

 

[Carlosa]

Parik, could you try to find out what is included in the IAF calculus of CPFH?

Is it consumables + wages solely or does it include spares and/or infrastructure and so on?

Because honestly, the difference between the two types is almost coherent with size of ACs.
Then the 3,000$ for the Mirage 2000 is reasonable but on the low side as noted by Carlosa.
For ref, AdlA M2000s are listed at 8000€/h vs 14000 for Raffys.
Similarly, 12Kper hour for the Sukhois is not excessive, in fact, even a little low compared to
the reported maintenance problems for the type.

Knowing this won't change your conclusion but should help us all understand IAF's ways and
make various processes easier to quantify and evaluate quality wise in the future.

Thanks in advance, Tay.

This is the usual formula:

CPFH is calculated by adding the three major cost variables and dividing by the number of hours flown throughout the fiscal year. Equation 1 illustrates this calculation:

1. 
   PARTS + FUEL + MODIFICATIONS divided by CPFH HOURS FLOWN

F-15C Eagle Fighter — $41,921

F-22A Raptor Fighter — $68,362

F-16C Viper Fighter — $22,514

The numbers are from a Time magazine article, it seems a bit high to me for the F-16.

From another source, probably a bit old:

F-16: Between $3,600 [1] to $9,000 [2] per flight hour

F-5E: $3,910 per flight hour (See page 47 for caveats) [3]

F-5A/B: P114,660 per flight hour (1999 prices) [15]

F-8H/P: P92,690 per flight hour (1999 prices) [16]

F-18A: $5,977 per flight hour [4]

F/A-18C: $3,871 per flight hour [7]

Gripen: $2,000 [5] to $3,000 [21] [22]

Mirage 2000: $2,700 per flight hour [6]

Mig 21: $4,500 per flight hour (Lease rate, therefore includes profit mark-up) [8]

Mig 17: $2,300 per flight hour (Lease rate, therefore includes profit mark-up) [9]

F-4 Phantom: $5,628.52 to 5,804.41 per flight hour (See here to determine how these figures were computed)

F-15: $6,000 to $8,000 per flight hour [13]

Su-30MK: $12,000 per flight hour (RTAF) [19] [20]

F/A-22: $44,000 per flight hour [21]

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Parik, could you try to find out what is included in the IAF calculus of CPFH?

Is it consumables + wages solely or does it include spares and/or infrastructure and so on?

Because honestly, the difference between the two types is almost coherent with size of ACs.
Then the 3,000$ for the Mirage 2000 is reasonable but on the low side as noted by Carlosa.
For ref, AdlA M2000s are listed at 8000€/h vs 14000 for Raffys.
Similarly, 12Kper hour for the Sukhois is not excessive, in fact, even a little low compared to
the reported maintenance problems for the type.

Knowing this won't change your conclusion but should help us all understand IAF's ways and
make various processes easier to quantify and evaluate quality wise in the future.

Thanks in advance, Tay.

IMHO its just few items like consumables+wages

The spares and infra and other stuff comes under maintenance and repair head..

India has spent over Rs 2,263 crore for the repair and maintenance of country's frontline fighter aircraft Sukhoi-30 since 2011, the government told Rajya Sabha.

In a written reply, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said Rs 834.76 crore was spent in 2013-14 while Rs 877.84 crore was spent for the purpose in 2012-13. The government had spent Rs 551.35 crore in 2011-12. He said the maintenance work on SU-30 aircraft is carried out in accordance with the procedures specified in the original equipment manufacturer maintenance manuals and servicing schedules for the plane.

The nearly 200-strong Su-30 fleet, which was grounded after the crash, has now been cleared for flying.

Tue, 9 Dec 2014-07:47pm
Over Rs 2,263 crore spent on Sukhoi-30 plane maintenance in 3 years | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

another source saying same is
Over Rs 2,263 Crore Spent On Sukhoi-30 Plane Maintenance In 3 Years


If i assume that cost also being part of CPFH other costs factors than assuming its 200 MKI for 2013-14 its another 834.76/200~ 4.1738 Crs
On an average MKI flys 250 Hrs so per hour 166952

So if i assume those then its 750000+166952= Rs 916952 or $14671

Of course not everything under that head will go to CPFH but roughly the range seems to be $12000-$14671 or approx 20-25% over it.

With the same logic, M2Ks should be $3000-$3750.

And for Raffy its below $10,000 as per what we discussed in Rafale thread.. and data was posted by @Picdelamirand-oil and @Vauban and based on that we all concluded below $10K

Here

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 123

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 123

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 124


You had missed it Tay!!!

 

[Taygibay]

PARTS + FUEL + MODIFICATIONS divided by CPFH HOURS FLOWN

I'll have to disagree there Carlosa mate! There is no such thing as a standard CPFH formula.
The best proof of this is that both the US and France actually use more than one each!

A CPFH is a measurement tool, right? But who is measuring what? Govt or AF?
Your formula is OK for an air force and yet some of them would put modifications aside : ex.
- If the changes happen at program level and retrofit is not done by its maintenance crews.
It doesn't fit govt which is likely to want a more global addition so as not to find treasury surprises.

In France, the AdlA does a lot in-house. That computation of the Rafale CPFH is 14, 000€.
Then you have basic cost computation that amounts to what Pic posted : +- 10 000€.
In mine, any maintenance done by the AdlA is included so that you could call it an OPEX CPFH.
The program CPFH, compounded costs from OEM to Budget ministry is 27 000€ however!
The former is about your version but the latter includes pilots' pay and benefits and infrastructures.
The same is true in America if you compare a USAF CPFH as above to the Congress one.


That is why I asked.

And I missed the convo Parik but not the point!

Have a great day, Tay.