Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[PARIKRAMA]

80 off the shelf and how many made in India then?


Things are getting more and more complex with every day! The only certainties are the Rafale is coming (not clear just when as of yet) and that 36 will never be the final figure.

MII part remains 90 as per RFP
so my understanding is 80+90 = 170

 

[SR-91]

i will quote even more interesting. If rumoured offset figure is 4.5Bn$ then full deal is 9 Bn$. Now if its inclusive of weapons then jet deal Total cost of operation is 7.5 Bn $ meaning $94 Mn per jet . If the 9Bn is excluding weapon cost then also per jet cost is 112.5 Mn. Again these are total cost of operations for 40 years...

The only issue is 4.5Bn figure is for this "80" plan or not? No one can confirm that as no offical confirmation has been ever given on anythin related to cost....

One thing is clear, the negotiations are far more complex and definitely there is much bigger directly from france component to augment rafale increased rate of production.
Perhaps if 80 flyway goes thru then 90 under MII will make straight forward 170 birds.. Follow on may add even more for both parts..

So suddenly the hope is different... i guess soemthing really complex cooking here..An elaborate 7 course meal perhaps..

99 GE 414 case and the talk of no MK2 makes me believe MK2 program is priortised atm purely for IN. IAF i believe may evaluate at an appropriate time MK2 coming out for IN.

But interestingly, why such big numbers as IN i dont think has stated something like 50 MK2 jets requirement with 1:1 engine replacements as spares for future..

Perhaps this may imply iAF is keen on MK1 and whatever upgrades HAL ADA can come with DRDO and not give paper dreams of MK2 solution for any present insufficiency or not meeting requirements or any small issue..

MII part remains 90 as per RFP
so my understanding is 80+90 = 170

Oh boy,Thats a lot of new jets.
Rafale = 170
Tejas mk1A = 120
FGFA = we have wait till december to find out, but the news is 2/3 squadrons off shelf.

* If we ink this contract by this year end, Rafale will start arriving in 2019/2020.
* The same year HAL will complete MKI delivery.
* Super SU-30 hopeful by 2020.
* In 2016----- 4 Tejas,
* 2017---------8 Tejas,
* 2018---------16 Tejas
* 2019 --------24 Tejas, possible, Parrikar wants HAL to produce 24 Tejas jets per year.

I think it looks good, @PARIKRAMA, thx for some good info.

 

[$@rJen]

Modi intervenes again to remove deadlock, First Rafale Squadron in two to three years
PublishedOctober 6, 2015 | Byadmin

SOURCE: India Strategic

In an interview with India Strategic and at remarks at his annual pre-Air Force Day briefing here October 3, Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha observed that the Indian Air Force (IAF) was “terribly short” of modern aircraft, and that the Government was alive to this.

“The contract negotiations with the French are in process… Our intent is to conclude the agreement at the earliest,” he said. Reliable sources told India Strategic that there were some difficulties in signing the Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) even after discussions between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his host President Francois Hollande during the Indian leader’s visit to Paris in April, particularly over offsets and some Transfer of Technology (ToT).

And as the process was getting stuck again, Mr Modi went out of the way to telephonically call Mr Hollande in September to address the difficulties from the Indian side, and the French leader showed tremendous goodwill and understanding in helping resolve the situation.

Thanks to the good relations Mr Modi has built with Mr Hollande, Dassault has agreed to 50 per cent offsets, and the discussions are now on fast-track, sources said.

A smiling Air Chief Marshal Raha said that he hoped to get the first squadron of Rafales in two to three years.

Notably, the Indian side deputed IAF’s Deputy Chief, Air Marshal SBP Sinha while the French, Air Marshal Stephane Reb, Director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French Ministry of Defence to conduct and conclude the negotiations. Both have exchanged visits, and the stipulated agreement – the enabler to move forward – will be signed any time, perhaps well before December 2015.

Air Chief Marshal Raha said that the IAF needs at least six squadrons – 126 aircraft – of Rafales or equivalent aircraft in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) category for frontline operations, and it is to be seen if IAF gets more Rafales or other aircraft. He was asked if there was an option to go in for another machine.

He said he favoured Government-to-Government contracts as they are speedy and devoid of competitive politics, and future acquisitions should go on the same lines.

As for more Rafales, he said “the need is there, and if Costs, Transfer of Technology and Make in India requirements are good, we may get more.”

Asked if there was a choice for the US, Swedish or other aircraft manufacturers to be back in fray, he indicated a possibility but described the Rafale as “a very good aircraft.”

Egypt and Qatar have bought the Rafale while the UAE is considering it, he pointed out.

About the overall deficiency of combat aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Raha said that “50 per cent offset is being sought from the French industrial suppliers as part of the procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft.

“Greater visibility (however) would emerge only after the Indian negotiating team completes the negotiations.”

Air Chief Marshal Raha underlined the importance of Make in India, and pointed out that “the offset implementation under the Rafale project will support” this, adding that some other similar initiatives are also underway in the aviation sector.

It may be recalled that IAF had issued a tender for 126 MMRCAs in 2007, and Rafale emerged as the winner in 2012 in the six-corner contest. But negotiations were bogged down over offsets and responsibility over the quality of production at the state-run HAL, the prime integrator for the aircraft in India. India finally scrapped the deal and Mr Modi personally sought 36 aircraft to meet IAF’s immediate requirements. Further acquisitions are possible, depending upon the conclusion of the current deal.

French sources told this writer during a recent visit to Paris that Dassault’s partners in the Rafale programme, primarily Thales and Safran, were already gearing up their production lines for the Indian order.

Significantly, the French Government has asked Dassault, the designer and integrator of Rafale, to divert requirements of the French Air Force (Armée de l’Air) to Egypt, Qatar and India

 

[PARIKRAMA]

FGFA = we have wait till december to find out, but the news is 2/3 squadrons off shelf.

I think T50 will be limited to 65 in numbers or perhaps in the range of 60-80 max and we may use the tech help of russianns to augment our AMCA program. Unless IAF brass gets specifically happy after having T50 and PM Modi and President Putin works out something like pulling a rabbit out of hat type magic and India still sticks to huge numbers of FGFA (even 144 types). Unfortunately the MKI line beyond the Super upgrades will be kind of non usable. Looking from that angle if AMCA program replaces that then its fine but i think AMCA may go to a pvt company.. Thus i do believe FGFA program may see some evolution and based on feedback a newer version which will become FGFA and will begin to be mass produced in 2025-30 timeline. In essence i think India may follow Chinese model of having 2 5th gen program simultaneously. One for heavier and one for medium category.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think T50 will be limited to 65 in numbers or perhaps in the range of 60-80 max and we may use the tech help of russianns to augment our AMCA program. Unless IAF brass gets specifically happy after having T50 and PM Modi and President Putin works out something like pulling a rabbit out of hat type magic and India still sticks to huge numbers of FGFA (even 144 types). Unfortunately the MKI line beyond the Super upgrades will be kind of non usable. Looking from that angle if AMCA program replaces that then its fine but i think AMCA may go to a pvt company.. Thus i do believe FGFA program may see some evolution and based on feedback a newer version which will become FGFA and will begin to be mass produced in 2025-30 timeline. In essence i think India may follow Chinese model of having 2 5th gen program simultaneously. One for heavier and one for medium category.

I am not at all convinced my friend, the IAF is headset on the FGFA, they simply aren't interested in the PAK-FA/T-50 and to this end they have already allocated some heavy financing to the FGFA specifically. 2025-30 is a very pessimistic timeline but the Russians don't exactly seem to be in a hurry with this project.

 

[halloweene]

interestingly, at least one Rafale engaged in Bold Quest was shawing markings from experimental Sqd.

 

[halloweene]

Some nice picture from Marine Nationale

 

[PARIKRAMA]

interestingly, at least one Rafale engaged in Bold Quest was shawing markings from experimental Sqd.

How are you my friend.. Long time

What you mean by experimental squadron?

Btw whats you hearing about rafale deal.. 36 or 80? any news on the progress of make in india 90 jets rfp part?
Air chief is clear about 6 squadrons of rafale jets.. Only thing is when and how.. Seems September beginning PM modi had a talk with President Hollande on rafale deal, any murmurs on what leaders actually talked...

You had said about india getting some UCAV tech from Neuron.. Any idea whats the thing thats planned as part of tech transfer or TOT..

 

[halloweene]

How are you my friend.. Long time

What you mean by experimental squadron?

Btw whats you hearing about rafale deal.. 36 or 80? any news on the progress of make in india 90 jets rfp part?
Air chief is clear about 6 squadrons of rafale jets.. Only thing is when and how.. Seems September beginning PM modi had a talk with President Hollande on rafale deal, any murmurs on what leaders actually talked...

You had said about india getting some UCAV tech from Neuron.. Any idea whats the thing thats planned as part of tech transfer or TOT..

Before modifications (new standards etc.), those are tested on some Rafale from the Cote d'Argent Sqd in Istres. I think they have only three planes, but not sure.

 

[nik22]

India is trolling France

 

[Prajapati]

India is trolling France

I thought France by trolling India ............ dangle the Rafale in front of us but refusing to share the technology, abusing HAL and demanding ridiculous price.

 

[Agent_47]

new wallpaper

 

[Jai Bharat]

I am not at all convinced my friend, the IAF is headset on the FGFA, they simply aren't interested in the PAK-FA/T-50 and to this end they have already allocated some heavy financing to the FGFA specifically. 2025-30 is a very pessimistic timeline but the Russians don't exactly seem to be in a hurry with this project.

IAF has not even had the chance to test drive a T-50 yet, and technology is being kept a secret from DRDO scientists, hence the delay in next contract signing.

If it turns out to be a lemon, they are not going to get it. IAF is definitely a stubborn organization compared to Navy. If they don't like it, they won't go for it. F-35 or joint development for Japanese 5th gen might be a possibility. Re-purposing the AMCA to replace FGFA and then inducting more Rafales for strike fighters might be a possibility. As I understand it, the AMCA fulfilled a similar role to the Rafale/Jaguar strike fighers, the LCA to the MiG-21 interceptors, and the FGFA to the Su-30 air superiority. In future is it not possible to go LCA, Rafale, AHCA "heavy AMCA"?

 

[SR-91]

Guys, guess who is invited as chief guest to the next R-Day in 2016?


India on its next Republic Day will host French President Hollande as Chief Guest. I'm Expecting big announcement on 27th Jan 2016.

Just like Modi invited Obama on its previous R-Day as chief guest, only to see a break thru in India-US Nuclear Deal. Nuclear deal "breakthrough" was announced on 27th Jan 2015.

I Strongly believe Modi will keep this trend and may announce the Rafale deal on 27 Jan 2016. Exactly 3 months from now.

Modi is also schedule to go to Paris in December to attend Climate Change Conference.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Guys, guess who is invited as chief guest to the next R-Day in 2016?


India on its next Republic Day will host French President Hollande as Chief Guest. I'm Expecting big announcement on 27th Jan 2016.

Just like Modi invited Obama on its previous R-Day as chief guest, only to see a break thru in India-US Nuclear Deal. Nuclear deal "breakthrough" was announced on 27th Jan 2015.

I Strongly believe Modi will keep this trend and may announce the Rafale deal on 27 Jan 2016. Exactly 3 months from now.

Modi is also schedule to go to Paris in December to attend Climate Change Conference.

if what u said is true then i think it will be two pronged
1. 36 rafale sign may happen in december (if not in jan of course) in France as its intended for French Domestic masses
2. Make in India part commitment may be in Jan as that will serve better Indian domestic audience response.