Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Taygibay]

i have learned of an interesting development.
india has signed for the technical and financial agreements for the jet but has not signed for the 50% offset agreement.
thats the hardest part.

You have it backward : the contract is signed; the offset agreement must follow.
But it would be no problem anyway due to MII preparations. In essence, the parties
now have to find a repartition. There is a defined scale where having Indians screw
in parts ranks low or 1€ for 1 € of product, Indians setting up manufacture that stays
ranks higher like 1.5€ for 1€ of product and Indians learning to design & manufacture
sits highest with 2 or 3€ for 1€ of final product.
The last may seem like paying too much but the weapon might simply not have existed
without that help and what is that worth?

For 3+B€, India gets either that in local manufacture or 2/3 of that in production plants or
a third of that in knowledge to build say the AMCA.

And it's going to be 3.2/3.4 B because some of the sales article in the global deal are not
offsets forwarding , like say the integration sub-segment.

Does DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) have emal catobar or steam catobar?

Steam is most likely. Nuke carriers can produce it aplenty
and you should read a bit on the E-MALS program history.


Great evening all, Tay.

P.S. StephenC was right to complain about the translation level; it
is pitiful. For future reference, chasse is hunt not hunting but more
importantly means fighter by opposition to transport in French.
Replace as wished hunt/hunting/chasse ... embarquée or not, with Fighter Force.​

 

[Blue Marlin]

You have it backward : the contract is signed; the offset agreement must follow.
But it would be no problem anyway due to MII preparations. In essence, the parties
now have to find a repartition. There is a defined scale where having Indians screw
in parts ranks low or 1€ for 1 € of product, Indians setting up manufacture that stays
ranks higher like 1.5€ for 1€ of product and Indians leaning to design & manufacture
sits highest with 2 or 3€ for 1€ of final product.
The last may seem like paying too much but the weapon might simply not have existed
without that help and what is that worth?

For 3+B€, India gets either that in local manufacture or 2/3 of that in production plants or
a third of that in knowledge to build say the AMCA.

And it's going to be 3.2/3.4 B because some of the sales article in the global deal are not
offsets forwarding , like say the integration sub-segment.

well im just saying what janes has said which quoted an iaf officail.
dassault dont want to guarantee the parts made in india which have a bad rep. so the offset would not have to be related to the rafale.

India signed an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France on 23 September in New Delhi for the purchase of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters in flyaway condition for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.82 billion).

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.

Officials said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) would pay 15% of the sum in advance to French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which will begin deliveries of the fighters in 36 months and complete them in 66 months.


The MoD, however, has yet to sign the final contract with Dassault, which is responsible for offsetting 50% of the overall contract value in India through co-operation with the country's military-industrial sector.


The offsets under negotiation are expected to be split 30:20 between domestic aeronautics programmes and the licenced manufacture of Rafale-related components.

Officials said the Rafale deal includes EUR3.4 billion for the platforms and EUR710 million for the weapons package, which comprises MBDA's MICA and Meteor air-to-air missiles with strike ranges of 70 km and 150 km, respectively, and the Storm Shadow/SCALP stand-off attack missile, which has a 250-300 km range.

India is to pay EUR1.7 billion for customising the 36 Rafales to meet 14 IAF requirements, including the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, as well as indigenously designed missiles and electronic warfare, datalink, and identification friend-or-foe systems.

The fighters will also be customised for SPICE bomb-guidance and range-extension kits, which the IAF plans to acquire from Israel's Rafael, IAF sources told IHS Jane's .

Aircraft spares, hangars, and two maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in eastern and northern India are set to cost EUR1.8 billion, while the performance-based logistics (PBL) deal for the fighters is priced at EUR353 million.

http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters

 

[Taygibay]

Sure but if you check back to the must part,
they will find an agreement, they agreed to!

It's like playing chess with a clock. ​

So at worst by your view, it will be 100% help
with Kaveri, AESA tech and a local basis for
future SPECTRA applications for 1&1/2 B€.
I think India can live with that.

GN, Tay.

 

[dadeechi]

So the ultimate decision on who will be designing/consultant on the IAC2 wil be political one. Place you bets people, IS IT the Russian, Americans or the French ??!

Russia is out.

Read this thread

https://defence.pk/threads/india-ru...-on-indian-defence.450669/page-9#post-8735413

i have leaned of an interesting development.
india has signed for the technical and financial agreements for the jet but has not signed for the 50% offset agreement.
thats the hardest part.

Now it would be the easiest part as India no longer has any leverage. India would just have to go with what France proposes and sign on the dotted line.

 

[SQ8]

Many of the participants from across the border are quite disrespectful. This leaves no room for discussion. I will be open to give opinion on any solicited question based on my view of the world.

All it takes is clicking the report button, and leaving it to the mod team; most of them are much gentler than I am though.

 

[shree835]

@PARIKRAMA I would like India and France to design and develop together AMCA - Futur French fighter. The only thing we miss is a market, you will be a big market and we can speed up availability of needed technologies for such a project. Win win situation.

Man... This is the thing I always wanted... AMCA development with INDIA and FRANCE....This will be amazing...

 

[#hydra#]

Man... This is the thing I always wanted... AMCA development with INDIA and FRANCE....This will be amazing...

Then it will be an another pakga type program,engine fusalage fine tuning for better aerodynamics will be of French origin for sure.

 

[mike2000 is back]

well im just saying what janes has said which quoted an iaf officail.
dassault dont want to guarantee the parts made in india which have a bad rep. so the offset would not have to be related to the rafale.

India signed an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France on 23 September in New Delhi for the purchase of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters in flyaway condition for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.82 billion).

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.

Officials said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) would pay 15% of the sum in advance to French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which will begin deliveries of the fighters in 36 months and complete them in 66 months.


The MoD, however, has yet to sign the final contract with Dassault, which is responsible for offsetting 50% of the overall contract value in India through co-operation with the country's military-industrial sector.


The offsets under negotiation are expected to be split 30:20 between domestic aeronautics programmes and the licenced manufacture of Rafale-related components.

Officials said the Rafale deal includes EUR3.4 billion for the platforms and EUR710 million for the weapons package, which comprises MBDA's MICA and Meteor air-to-air missiles with strike ranges of 70 km and 150 km, respectively, and the Storm Shadow/SCALP stand-off attack missile, which has a 250-300 km range.

India is to pay EUR1.7 billion for customising the 36 Rafales to meet 14 IAF requirements, including the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, as well as indigenously designed missiles and electronic warfare, datalink, and identification friend-or-foe systems.

The fighters will also be customised for SPICE bomb-guidance and range-extension kits, which the IAF plans to acquire from Israel's Rafael, IAF sources told IHS Jane's .

Aircraft spares, hangars, and two maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in eastern and northern India are set to cost EUR1.8 billion, while the performance-based logistics (PBL) deal for the fighters is priced at EUR353 million.

http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters

Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.

Answered a few pages back in more detail but basically the Rafale is at least a decade away from getting integrated with the Brahmos, the SCALP is integrated today and will be with the IAF's Rafales from 2019.


I've said that the Vikrant has a very high chance of being Home to Rafale Ms given the sheer Lack of interest the IN has shown in ordering more MiG-29Ks despite the Vikrant only being a few years away from sea trails. They'd have made their move by now unless they were waiting for something else (the IAF's decision on the Rafale for instance).

Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?

 

[Taygibay]

Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash?

That's why there are 100% units of each owner country, Mike.
The cash made by any of them selling goes through to MBDA.
It also simplifies exports greatly. Martin-Baker does that too.

The Airbus/EADS/Finmeccanica partners then take their cut at
the yearly revenues/ GA/ shares level.

G'dday mate, Tay.

 

[mike2000 is back]

That's why there are 100% units of each owner country, Mike.
The cash made by any of them selling goes through to MBDA.
It also simplifies exports greatly. Martin-Baker does that too.

The Airbus/EADS/Finmeccanica partners then take their cut at
the yearly revenues/ GA/ shares level.

G'dday mate, Tay.

Ah ok , I see. So we all get a share of the money then. Good one. Cooperation between equal partners is always better than going solo at times. Plus it does simplify exports as you said. No wonder MBDA is now a world leader in missile sales around the world.

Towards a new Indian aircraft carrier catapults
Construction of sister ship Vikrant, first introduced as a carrier air defense, was abandoned in favor of a more ambitious project on a building designed to conduct power projection operations. Known Vishal, the third Indian aircraft carrier will be greater than his older and probably catobar type, that is to say with catapults and shutdown strands. To carry out this new project, New Delhi plans to cooperate with a foreign manufacturer who has expertise in aircraft carrier. This is where DCNS, the only company in the world to have studied a new design of aircraft carriers, DEAC, to meet those needs.


DCNS offers designer
Long 272 meters for a displacement of 52,000 tons over, DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) has everything to be the basis for discussions. It is a carrier of new generation compact, designed to enable the country who has achieve similar power projection operations to those that can lead the Navy with the Charles de Gaulle. To this end, the French engineers have increased the maximum aeronautical capabilities of the platform. This offers a flight deck area of 13,500 m² and two catapults of 90 meters allowing the implementation of heavier aircraft. The flow of materials and ammunition, as well as refueling and maneuvering aircraft on the flight deck and the hangar to have been optimized to facilitate flight operations and allow 75 day trips. With two lifts 36 tonnes, the DEAC incorporates oblique track with three strands stop and emergency barrier. It can implement some forty aircraft and is manned by 900 crew members, the capacity can go up to 1770 people with the staff of Air Group and Staff.

Capable of carrying 400 tons of ammunition and 8,400 tons of fuel, DEAC has a substantial autonomy or 8000 miles at 20 knots. Capable of reaching a top speed of 28 knots, it is available with different types of powered two rows of trees, including CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and gas) or COGAG (Combined gas turbine and gas turbine).

DEAC (© DCNS)



Several countries consulted but big advantages for French
Discussions have therefore begun to consider a Franco-Indian cooperation, DCNS hoping to capitalize on the good progress of Indian submarines of the Scorpene-type program, made in Technology Transfer in Mumbai and the first of which, the Kalvari, to be delivered in 2017.

Obviously, the Indians consult other country but France, with the tandem DEAC / Rafale, offers a safe and optimal solution to meet Indian needs. In terms of capacity, know-how and technology, Russians, Britons and Italians can not compete, due among other things they have no recent experience of aircraft carrier catapults. As for the Americans, their aircraft carriers are too big and expensive. France also has the advantage, not negligible, to give customers all the keys allowing them to use the equipment as they see fit, which is crucial in terms of freedom of action and sovereignty.

(© HESJA)

http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/rafale-et-maintenant-la-marine-indienne

+++

Check this out.. now read and recall what i have always said..

• ACC help by DCNS .. i used the term - will be a consultant..
• Rafale M for STOBAR
• Rafale M stobar ops no compromise in A2A with limited capability downgrade for A2G
• MII for IAF+IN - a huge fleet

Enjoy !!

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Wow......France has a new carrier model? @Vergennes , you never told me that.
We can share our carriers together in future. You people need for a new expensive one. Afterall, what are allies for?

On a serious note though, jokes aside, it looks quite advanced with some new features. What's the estimated cost and is it exclusively for expot or France is looking to build one for its own navy?

Thinking about it, I believe we should offer a QE version for export(with some new features). I am sure it might also get some order/interest.

 

[Echo_419]

Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.

Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?

Rafael is at least a gen ahead of Mig-29K

 

[Abingdonboy]

Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.

Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?

There's nothing wrong with the MiG-29K, the Rafale M is simply superior.

 

[[Bregs]]

There's nothing wrong with the MiG-29K, the Rafale M is simply superior.

well bro the biggest advantage rafale scores over MIG 29K might be the availability rate of 75% or above. so thats a big plus apart from better avionics specially AESA radar

 

[Abingdonboy]

well bro the biggest advantage rafale scores over MIG 29K might be the availability rate of 75% or above. so thats a big plus apart from better avionics specially AESA radar

In pretty much every area the Rafale is a step above the MiG-29K. This is not to diminish the MiG-29K's potency, it is the third most advanced carrier fighter in service today and easily one of the most potent jets region that could take on the frontline jets of most nation's airforces.

And yes, the ease of maintaining the Rafale when at sea is a HUGE plus for a carrier navy.

well im just saying what janes has said which quoted an iaf officail.
dassault dont want to guarantee the parts made in india which have a bad rep. so the offset would not have to be related to the rafale.

India signed an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France on 23 September in New Delhi for the purchase of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters in flyaway condition for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.82 billion).

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.

Officials said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) would pay 15% of the sum in advance to French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which will begin deliveries of the fighters in 36 months and complete them in 66 months.


The MoD, however, has yet to sign the final contract with Dassault, which is responsible for offsetting 50% of the overall contract value in India through co-operation with the country's military-industrial sector.


The offsets under negotiation are expected to be split 30:20 between domestic aeronautics programmes and the licenced manufacture of Rafale-related components.

Officials said the Rafale deal includes EUR3.4 billion for the platforms and EUR710 million for the weapons package, which comprises MBDA's MICA and Meteor air-to-air missiles with strike ranges of 70 km and 150 km, respectively, and the Storm Shadow/SCALP stand-off attack missile, which has a 250-300 km range.

India is to pay EUR1.7 billion for customising the 36 Rafales to meet 14 IAF requirements, including the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, as well as indigenously designed missiles and electronic warfare, datalink, and identification friend-or-foe systems.

The fighters will also be customised for SPICE bomb-guidance and range-extension kits, which the IAF plans to acquire from Israel's Rafael, IAF sources told IHS Jane's .

Aircraft spares, hangars, and two maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in eastern and northern India are set to cost EUR1.8 billion, while the performance-based logistics (PBL) deal for the fighters is priced at EUR353 million.

http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters

@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil

A further expansion of an already very diverse performance envelope.
The Indian Rafale with all of these customisations will surely help (maybe not so much in the Mid East ) the Rafale's export potential.

 

[randomradio]

Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.

Profits are shared, production is not.

For example, 80% of the production will go into Italian industries for the Kuwaiti Typhoons.

Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?

We have always done that. We've had western jets and Soviet jets in significant numbers. We've had French Mysteres, Ouragans and Mirage-2000s, British Harriers, Hunters and Gnats, Anglo-French Jaguars etc. So we are doing nothing special here.