Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[kaykay]

So marathon negotiations have finally ended....

 

[PARIKRAMA]

What about the off the shelt Rafale-M orders for the navy bro, any news/info on them? When will/can they be in service?

+ What are the chances the IAF exercises the follow-on clause for off the shelf Rafales over and above this 36 whilst the MII line is being set up?

Rafale Ms will come bro too..It wont be clubbed priority order so we should see it around 2021+. It is imperative that IAC2 plan needs to finalise for Rafale Ms. And high chances are that the entire wing may be ordered from Merignac line only.

Assuming Rafale MII order to be concluded by March 2017, it will take 3 years for the assembly line setup implying March 2020 for setup to complete. Add 6 months slack time for any delays so its 2021. The Rafale being assembled from kits initially should come out of the plant by end 2021 or more like 2022 as initial assembling should see challenges or teething issues. So 2022 is a better date to realise MII fruits.

Now if all planes are delivered by 2020 there is a gap of 2 years easily between last off the shelf delivery and MII line first plane out. So, I expect them to order another 18 around 2019 timeline right before the elections (uptill code of conduct kicks in and no new fresh procurement can be done) or after the elections.

Off Topic but One thing is clear, NDA will want maximum order to be concluded before elections hit India and take it from me, the fear psychosis of Rafales In IAF adversaries and the views of IAF and demands by IN for Rafale M will be used as a major tool in their planned election speeches.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That is what I said in january on another forum: all Rafales built in France delivered to India by end 2019/ very beginning 2020.

Please CNL-PN-AA, give us some more informations on the Rafale Qatar configuration because it could be easily available for India.

 

[BON PLAN]

That is what I said in january on another forum: all Rafales built in France delivered to India by end 2019/ very beginning 2020.

Are you sure? Don't forget the 24 for Qatar, to be delivered from 2018 at a 1/month rate.
I know that some are already on production (and 1 already in flight testing), but it's not enough no?

Rafale Ms will come bro too..It wont be clubbed priority order so we should see it around 2021+. It is imperative that IAC2 plan needs to finalise for Rafale Ms. And high chances are that the entire wing may be ordered from Merignac line only.

Assuming Rafale MII order to be concluded by March 2017, it will take 3 years for the assembly line setup implying March 2020 for setup to complete. Add 6 months slack time for any delays so its 2021. The Rafale being assembled from kits initially should come out of the plant by end 2021 or more like 2022 as initial assembling should see challenges or teething issues. So 2022 is a better date to realise MII fruits.

Now if all planes are delivered by 2020 there is a gap of 2 years easily between last off the shelf delivery and MII line first plane out. So, I expect them to order another 18 around 2019 timeline right before the elections (uptill code of conduct kicks in and no new fresh procurement can be done) or after the elections.

Off Topic but One thing is clear, NDA will want maximum order to be concluded before elections hit India and take it from me, the fear psychosis of Rafales In IAF adversaries and the views of IAF and demands by IN for Rafale M will be used as a major tool in their planned election speeches.

Why the Rafale M can't be made by the (possible) indian line? Too much needs from IAF so no space for navy planes?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Why the Rafale M can't be made by the (possible) indian line? Too much needs from IAF so no space for navy planes?

Yes priority is with IAF to begin with. Secondly, Rafale M requirements urgency will overlap with IAF numbers in the timeline 2022-27 when IAC2 is planned.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

French Rafale is best at dogfight
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-is-best-at-dogfight/articleshow/7478968.cms?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

French Rafale is best at dogfight
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-is-best-at-dogfight/articleshow/7478968.cms?

Whoa

Blast from the past

Thats from Feb 2011 time.. No doubt it showed its capabilities but from 2011 to present day and future ones which we will get, the gap will only increase.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

https://twitter.com/x/status/764404233219239936

 

[GuardianRED]

https://twitter.com/x/status/764404233219239936

can anyone explain the significates of the FLIR pics, from the looks of it the Rafale is low Viz

 

[PARIKRAMA]

FORWARD LOOKING INFRARED (FLIR)

• Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) is a night vision enhancement system with many potential applications in law enforcement agencies.
• FLIR systems offer vision enhancement superior to that available through conventional night vision systems.
• Originally developed for military operations, FLIR systems have a wide variety of applications for law enforcement, fire fighting, governmental and commercial/ industrial operations.

WHAT IS FLIR?

• FLIR was originally developed by the United States Navy to assist in the identification and targeting of opposition forces.
• FLIR units measure the amount of infrared energy emitted by various objects and life forms. In other words, it allows the user to “see” the amount of heat (or thermal energy) an object emits.
• Infrared energy is normally invisible to the human eye, but FLIR systems are able to detect and interpret emissions and provide the user with an image, even in complete darkness.
• Like conventional night vision enhancement systems, FLIR does not provide a perfect picture of what is in its field of view. What it does provide is an image with sufficient clarity to allow users to distinguish between cars, trees, and people.
• Conventional night vision systems improve the user’s ability to “see” objects by enhancing visible light. These systems only work if there is at least a minimal amount of available light and if there is nothing obscuring visibility (such as dust, haze, fog, or smoke).
• FLIR systems are still highly effective under conditions of low-visibility or complete darkness. By providing an image of the infrared energy being emitted by objects, the system can still “see” in complete darkness or obscured visibility.
• While the effectiveness of the system may be diminished when viewing distant objects under obscured conditions, FLIR still provide better visibility than other night vision enhancement systems.
• Because it measures thermal energy, FLIR can be used to conduct surveillance without relying on search lights or special lighting, improving the user’s ability to remain undetected.

Some images to showcase FLIR ability to distinguish and understand what it showcases

As you see its the heat emissions from the VTOL F35 shows the high emissions in the above picture.

A normal F35 flying through the sky, lets see via FLIR then

As you see the FLIR shows that emissions of F35 invisible to our eyes is far more and the thermal signature is almost engulfing the entire aircraft


Compare it with

This is Rafale

What it showcases is the cooling effect and how the exhaust is planned well for Rafale. Due to sound cooling system and well planned layout the fuselage is also not showing high temperature like EFs and yet its exhaust signature is better than F22

The above picture shows how dual cooling channel of M88 engine reduces the thermal effect and how it reduces the heat signature in the exhaust system by cooling it

Compare it with EF EJ200 engine above where it shows a single cooling channel and high TWR resulting in the engine exhaust and fuselage glowing IR signature.


In Short Stealth is over hyped and there are many other ways of taking down the stealth aspect of such planes

@Vergennes @MilSpec @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @SpArK

 

[GuardianRED]

FORWARD LOOKING INFRARED (FLIR)

• Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) is a night vision enhancement system with many potential applications in law enforcement agencies.
• FLIR systems offer vision enhancement superior to that available through conventional night vision systems.
• Originally developed for military operations, FLIR systems have a wide variety of applications for law enforcement, fire fighting, governmental and commercial/ industrial operations.

WHAT IS FLIR?

• FLIR was originally developed by the United States Navy to assist in the identification and targeting of opposition forces.
• FLIR units measure the amount of infrared energy emitted by various objects and life forms. In other words, it allows the user to “see” the amount of heat (or thermal energy) an object emits.
• Infrared energy is normally invisible to the human eye, but FLIR systems are able to detect and interpret emissions and provide the user with an image, even in complete darkness.
• Like conventional night vision enhancement systems, FLIR does not provide a perfect picture of what is in its field of view. What it does provide is an image with sufficient clarity to allow users to distinguish between cars, trees, and people.
• Conventional night vision systems improve the user’s ability to “see” objects by enhancing visible light. These systems only work if there is at least a minimal amount of available light and if there is nothing obscuring visibility (such as dust, haze, fog, or smoke).
• FLIR systems are still highly effective under conditions of low-visibility or complete darkness. By providing an image of the infrared energy being emitted by objects, the system can still “see” in complete darkness or obscured visibility.
• While the effectiveness of the system may be diminished when viewing distant objects under obscured conditions, FLIR still provide better visibility than other night vision enhancement systems.
• Because it measures thermal energy, FLIR can be used to conduct surveillance without relying on search lights or special lighting, improving the user’s ability to remain undetected.

Some images to showcase FLIR ability to distinguish and understand what it showcases

View attachment 325638


View attachment 325639

As you see its the heat emissions from the VTOL F35 shows the high emissions in the above picture.

View attachment 325640
A normal F35 flying through the sky, lets see via FLIR then

View attachment 325641

As you see the FLIR shows that emissions of F35 invisible to our eyes is far more and the thermal signature is almost engulfing the entire aircraft


Compare it with
View attachment 325646

View attachment 325648

View attachment 325651
This is Rafale

What it showcases is the cooling effect and how the exhaust is planned well for Rafale. Due to sound cooling system and well planned layout the fuselage is also not showing high temperature like EFs and yet its exhaust signature is better than F22

The above picture shows how dual cooling channel of M88 engine reduces the thermal effect and how it reduces the heat signature in the exhaust system by cooling it

Compare it with EF EJ200 engine above where it shows a single cooling channel and high TWR resulting in the engine exhaust and fuselage glowing IR signature.


In Short Stealth is over hyped and there are many other ways of taking down the stealth aspect of such planes

Nnniiccee!! That explains a lot !! Can u give a range for FLIR

Someone give him positive ratings

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Nnniiccee!! That explains a lot !! Can u give a range for FLIR

Someone give him positive ratings

Basically the operation are in between three ranges known as

1. Long Wave IR Region - wavelenth of 8-12 Micro meter
2. Medium Wave IR region - wavelength 3-5 micro meter
3. Short Wave IR - wavelength 0.9-1.7 micro meter

The LWIR suffers from energy being absorbed and lost due to atmosphere scattering and 100% absorption by water.. So technology has increased the cost to artificially cool the sensor apparatus (cryogenically).

The MWIR actually suffers less of absorption and scattering effect and gives far better result with such cooling solutions but increases the cost aspect of more complex apparatus.

SWIR basically is used in uncooled systems. Also it uses Glass whereas MWIR and LWIR uses Germanium and Sapphire as sensor materials

The key points of differentiation among the apparatus utilizing these Wave regions are

1. Size
2. Weight
3. Power
4. Sensitivity Resolution
5. Signal to Noise ratio

Basically FLIR are part of a much larger system called IRST (Infra Red Search and Track). As the name suggests it does

1. Large search volume;
2. Autonomous and designated tracking of distant targets;
3. Highly accurate multiple-target tracking;
4. FLIR imaging;
5. High-definition TV imaging. etc

In such a system LWIR is used for finding cooled surfaces typically front portion or nose section of the incoming bogey or body heat from a side angle while MWIR focuses on the thermal signature of Jet Engines, Fuselage, or excessive heat radiated etc.

A simple figure to understand this

Rafale has the system called OSF comprising of FLIR and a video camera. OSF became famous when Rafale simulated kills of F22 got released in public domain. The range at best defined is

Thomson-CSF Optronique says exact performance details of the FSO are classified, but it is understood that, at 20,000ft (6,100m), for example, in air-to-air mode, the system will have an infrared detection capability of about 70nm (130km), or 60nm at low altitude, while laser ranging will be possible to 12nm.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tests-begin-on-rafale-optronics-50879/

Quite simply
FLIR IR detection is around 100-130 km in high altitude and around 100 km max in low altitude
Laser Range finder is around 22 km (40 km according to wikipedia)

In true sense MWIR should be around 40-50 km from where the recognition of aircraft should be possible.

 

[SR-91]

Assuming Rafale MII order to be concluded by March 2017, it will take 3 years for the assembly line setup implying March 2020 for setup to complete. Add 6 months slack time for any delays so its 2021 .

Yaar, didn't they start building the infrastructure for Rafales a while back. I thought they would be ready to start delivering MII Rafales by 2018/2019.

 

[R!CK]

FORWARD LOOKING INFRARED (FLIR)

• Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) is a night vision enhancement system with many potential applications in law enforcement agencies.
• FLIR systems offer vision enhancement superior to that available through conventional night vision systems.
• Originally developed for military operations, FLIR systems have a wide variety of applications for law enforcement, fire fighting, governmental and commercial/ industrial operations.

WHAT IS FLIR?

• FLIR was originally developed by the United States Navy to assist in the identification and targeting of opposition forces.
• FLIR units measure the amount of infrared energy emitted by various objects and life forms. In other words, it allows the user to “see” the amount of heat (or thermal energy) an object emits.
• Infrared energy is normally invisible to the human eye, but FLIR systems are able to detect and interpret emissions and provide the user with an image, even in complete darkness.
• Like conventional night vision enhancement systems, FLIR does not provide a perfect picture of what is in its field of view. What it does provide is an image with sufficient clarity to allow users to distinguish between cars, trees, and people.
• Conventional night vision systems improve the user’s ability to “see” objects by enhancing visible light. These systems only work if there is at least a minimal amount of available light and if there is nothing obscuring visibility (such as dust, haze, fog, or smoke).
• FLIR systems are still highly effective under conditions of low-visibility or complete darkness. By providing an image of the infrared energy being emitted by objects, the system can still “see” in complete darkness or obscured visibility.
• While the effectiveness of the system may be diminished when viewing distant objects under obscured conditions, FLIR still provide better visibility than other night vision enhancement systems.
• Because it measures thermal energy, FLIR can be used to conduct surveillance without relying on search lights or special lighting, improving the user’s ability to remain undetected.

Some images to showcase FLIR ability to distinguish and understand what it showcases

View attachment 325638


View attachment 325639

As you see its the heat emissions from the VTOL F35 shows the high emissions in the above picture.

View attachment 325640
A normal F35 flying through the sky, lets see via FLIR then

View attachment 325641

As you see the FLIR shows that emissions of F35 invisible to our eyes is far more and the thermal signature is almost engulfing the entire aircraft


Compare it with
View attachment 325646

View attachment 325648

View attachment 325651
This is Rafale

What it showcases is the cooling effect and how the exhaust is planned well for Rafale. Due to sound cooling system and well planned layout the fuselage is also not showing high temperature like EFs and yet its exhaust signature is better than F22

The above picture shows how dual cooling channel of M88 engine reduces the thermal effect and how it reduces the heat signature in the exhaust system by cooling it

Compare it with EF EJ200 engine above where it shows a single cooling channel and high TWR resulting in the engine exhaust and fuselage glowing IR signature.


In Short Stealth is over hyped and there are many other ways of taking down the stealth aspect of such planes

@Vergennes @MilSpec @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @SpArK

Beautiful Post. Truly outstanding work!

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Yaar, didn't they start building the infrastructure for Rafales a while back. I thought they would be ready to start delivering MII Rafales by 2018/2019.

Not all planes of 36 numbers can be kept ready as that would be a much bigger gamble... The leadtime work is substantial... so in a way with our side signing the contract and releasing the money in Q3/Q4, its good enough that first jet may be handed from either 2017 end or 2018 beginning for continuous delivery of jets with increased productivity. Other customers are having much longer wait except Egypt who got a clean path of delivery being first to order.