Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[DrSomnath999]

i just dont understand if 12 billion dollar was the price of 36 rafale jets ,i wonder what would have been the price of 126 jets then if india had gone for 126 jets !!

CHEERS

 

[MilSpec]

The Mk.2 will be massively redesigned anyway and the intakes's design were always going to be changed to accomadate the different requirements of the F414 so there is the scope to design the LCA MK.2 around the M88 (perhaps full spec version with 11T).

@Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @knight11 @ni8mare @PARIKRAMA surely this is the optimal approach and then ork with SNEMCA to develop an M88 derivative for the AMCA?

I just hope inertia and poltical considerations (bootlicking the Americans by this current GoI) don't get in the way.

There are a few approaches here,

It would have been optimal if the MK2 was designed as per MMRCA paltforms down select, EFT with EJ200 or Rafale. Both Engines though have lower specs as required by the Mk2 though.

the second approach would be, FG404/414 as a stopgap for LCA Mk2, LCA MK2 Naval, and get an GTRX variant finalized for both AMCA and MK2.

Lastly and most unlikely option would be to make modular engine bays for both AMCA and Mk2 and following blocks, as a modular system capable of assimilating EJ200/ F414/ GTRX/ M88/ RD33MK as an export option depending of the user requirement.

i just dont understand if 12 billion dollar was the price of 36 rafale jets ,i wonder what would have been the price of 126 jets then if india had gone for 126 jets !!

CHEERS

The same difference in Price if you decided to import say 50 BMW M5's and sell them in your dealership, compared to Collaborating with BMW to setup a production line in India.
Also lets not forget Rs has depreciated substantially since the onset of this deal.

 

[AugenBlick]

i just dont understand if 12 billion dollar was the price of 36 rafale jets ,i wonder what would have been the price of 126 jets then if india had gone for 126 jets !!

CHEERS

Please read earlier discussion this has been well explained. Unitary method doesnot apply.

 

[Taygibay]

I have made a complementary explanation here:

Yes, good link as I had omitted mention of the hardware virtualization which is essential.

Thanks, Tay.

 

[BON PLAN]

@Taygibay our Airforce loves MICA specially IR -- I understand its light wt, and its original range is secret, but it has best propulsion. Is there any plan for new Generation MICA -- More smart, Lofter profile, longer range.

French air force prefer more speed than more range for MICA NG.
Because Meteor will be there for long range.
And because no medium (or long) ranged missile had been fired operationnaly at max range (or at least shoot the target at max range). So FAF think increasing speed is more interesting than range for MICA.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

PARIS (Reuters) - Dassault Aviation hopes to seal "one or two" contracts to sell its Rafale planes this year and this would include a much-heralded deal to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets to India, its chief executive said an interview.

"One can hope for on one or two contracts this year, including India," Eric Trappier was reported as saying by magazine Challenges on its Challenges.fr web site.

Negotiations for India to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets are nearing the finish line, the Indian defence ministry said last week, with sources saying the price will be set at around $9 billion.

"Significantly progress has been made and I sense a true
will to reach an agreement, possibly in the coming weeks," Trappier said of the India talks.

Both sides had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during President Francois Hollande's visit for India's Republic Day celebration in January, but hard bargaining on price stalled a final result.

Dassault Aviation said in March it was working on deals to also sell Rafale jets to Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...fale-deals-in-2016-report-116042500276_1.html

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Vietnam & Rafale?
http://defence-blog.com/news/vietnam-in-talk-to-purchase-about-12-gripen-or-rafale-fighter.html

 

[knight11]

French air force prefer more speed than more range for MICA NG.
Because Meteor will be there for long range.
And because no medium (or long) ranged missile had been fired operationnaly at max range (or at least shoot the target at max range). So FAF think increasing speed is more interesting than range for MICA.

The idea of MICA was to bring the BVR and WVR missile to One, that's why the designer choosed TVC and surface control (13 control surfaces). What makes MICA IR lethal, that it is low wt. -- 115 KG, very sensitive proximity Fuse -- Best in its Class, have twin wavelenth Seaker -- Could not be fooled by chalfs, and good Propulsion -- That's why 60 KM range, and could be used as IR Sensor when on board the aircraft.

Only problem is the cost.

India can get benifit from France with Pylons for LCA. Twin arm, tri arm pylon and get knowledge for the Supersonic Fuel tank with Low RCS and avionics.

1. One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders.
@Taygibay @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

@PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy

36+90 is what the talks about
http://m.challenges.fr/article/2016...espere-un-a-deux-contrats-rafale-en-2016.html

From the article translated.

Last January, after the visit of François Hollande in India, you felt able to sign the final contract for 36 Rafale "within 4 weeks." You see, finally, the end of the tunnel?

Significant progress has been made, and I sense a real determination to succeed, possibly in the coming weeks. But India remains India: the government wants to be sure before signing, the supplier has given all he could give. I am confident, because the army of the Indian Air has a long history with Dassault: the first hurricane were delivered in 1953! We can hope a two contracts this year, including India, although the time flies.


US competitors are doing the headquarters in New Delhi, with assembly lines proposed F-16 or F-18 in India. Is this a credible threat?

Indeed, we all lobbies against us: the Russians, the British, Swedes and, of course, Americans. Behind the 36 aircraft contract we negotiate, all candidates promise assembly sites to win the following 90. But offer a factory F-16 to India when you come to sell the same aircraft to Pakistan does not seem very serious. The US has already won contracts with the Air Force for transport aircraft in particular. If India sign for 36 Rafale, we will be well positioned to provide, if New Delhi confirms its need 126 combat aircraft, the following 90.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy

36+90 is what the talks about
http://m.challenges.fr/article/2016...espere-un-a-deux-contrats-rafale-en-2016.html

From the article translated.

Last January, after the visit of François Hollande in India, you felt able to sign the final contract for 36 Rafale "within 4 weeks." You see, finally, the end of the tunnel?

Significant progress has been made, and I sense a real determination to succeed, possibly in the coming weeks. But India remains India: the government wants to be sure before signing, the supplier has given all he could give. I am confident, because the army of the Indian Air has a long history with Dassault: the first hurricane were delivered in 1953! We can hope a two contracts this year, including India, although the time flies.


US competitors are doing the headquarters in New Delhi, with assembly lines proposed F-16 or F-18 in India. Is this a credible threat?

Indeed, we all lobbies against us: the Russians, the British, Swedes and, of course, Americans. Behind the 36 aircraft contract we negotiate, all candidates promise assembly sites to win the following 90. But offer a factory F-16 to India when you come to sell the same aircraft to Pakistan does not seem very serious. The US has already won contracts with the Air Force for transport aircraft in particular. If India sign for 36 Rafale, we will be well positioned to provide, if New Delhi confirms its need 126 combat aircraft, the following 90.

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

PARIS (Reuters) - Dassault Aviation hopes to seal "one or two" contracts to sell its Rafale planes this year and this would include a much-heralded deal to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets to India, its chief executive said an interview.

"One can hope for on one or two contracts this year, including India," Eric Trappier was reported as saying by magazine Challenges on its Challenges.fr web site.

Negotiations for India to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets are nearing the finish line, the Indian defence ministry said last week, with sources saying the price will be set at around $9 billion.

"Significantly progress has been made and I sense a true
will to reach an agreement, possibly in the coming weeks," Trappier said of the India talks.

Both sides had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during President Francois Hollande's visit for India's Republic Day celebration in January, but hard bargaining on price stalled a final result.

Dassault Aviation said in March it was working on deals to also sell Rafale jets to Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...fale-deals-in-2016-report-116042500276_1.html

Now the mainstream media is (somewhat) talking about the follow-on 90 units to be made in India and dispelling the myth they had been spouting for the past year that the deal was now for "only" 36 off the shelf birds. They are only about 8 months late.

1. One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders.
@Taygibay @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

Personally I don't think so BUT the sucessful sale to India WILL help Dassualt's sales pitch IMHO especially when the make in India line is up and running. India will act as a catalyst for other export orders/customisations IMO.

India can get benifit from France with Pylons for LCA. Twin arm, tri arm pylon and get knowledge for the Supersonic Fuel tank with Low RCS and avionics.

Would love to see double ejector racks on the LCA! Surely the Rafale is going to revolutionise the entire IAF fighter stream with the systems/tech it brings (new pylons, AASM, new diagnostic procedures, greater situational awareness capabilities etc etc) that will trickle down to the rest of the fleet- there is already talk of fitting AASMs on the MKI, Jaguar, Mirage-2000 and MiG-29Ks (of the IN).

It's weird how little impact the MKI had on the rest of the IAF fighter fleet but then it didn't really have specific lessons/tech that could be applied to the rest of the (non-MKI) fleet.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

1. One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders.
@Taygibay @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

Personnaly I think it helped, because it was a big surprise for Anglo-saxon (US and UK) For them Rafale doesn't exist they never consider it as a potential competitor and they were forced to consider it. After that the leak of the Swiss evaluation have had a lot of influence.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Personnaly I think it helped, because it was a big surprise for Anglo-saxon (US and UK) For them Rafale doesn't exist they never consider it as a potential competitor and they were forced to consider it. After that the leak of the Swiss evaluation have had a lot of influence.

I hadn't considered this point and it's a very strong point indeed sir! I remember the reaction of "downselect" being shock (from the Americans) and considerable confidence of success (from the Brits, afterall India is their subordinate, right?). I don't remember much commentary about the Rafale before the MMRCA decsion, before then there was a lot of F-22 vs EFT talk though.

The Rafale was the underdog throughout the MMRCA process and to eventually come out on top (based purely on merit) must have been a sweet feeling for the French.

 

[BON PLAN]

The idea of MICA was to bring the BVR and WVR missile to One, that's why the designer choosed TVC and surface control (13 control surfaces). What makes MICA IR lethal, that it is low wt. -- 115 KG, very sensitive proximity Fuse -- Best in its Class, have twin wavelenth Seaker -- Could not be fooled by chalfs, and good Propulsion -- That's why 60 KM range, and could be used as IR Sensor when on board the aircraft.

Where do you see 13 surface controls? Only four, and the 4 small palets in the exhaust nozzle.

One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders

From the beginning Indian MMRCA appeared to be a very professionnal field test. Maybe the harder to date.

So to be among the last two, for a fighter already deniesed by all king of french bashing was a strong point. And to end as the L1 prove the Dassault fighter was not so costly than some said years after years, even in France !

So it doen't help to make a sale, but this, plus Swiss eval leaks, plus Lybian and Mali strikes help to built a strong reputation to that plane.

And it's becoming to pay in export campaign.

 

[Taygibay]

1. One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders.
@Taygibay @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

https://dlofr.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/jet-fighters-why-france-should-thank-india/

the first hurricane were delivered in 1953!

LOL That would be l'Ouragan

Thnx Google transl./trance!

Good day all, Tay.

 

[C130]

Vietnam & Rafale?
http://defence-blog.com/news/vietnam-in-talk-to-purchase-about-12-gripen-or-rafale-fighter.html

I think Gripen would be a good fit for Vietnam.