Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Abingdonboy]

Specs comparison of GE404in20 & M88 * Eco demonstrator


http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/military/datasheet-F404-Family.pdf


http://www.snecma.com/file/download/fiche_m88_2011_ang_hd.pdf

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GE F404in20 ( 19000lbs ) < ECO demo (20250lbs ) < F414INS6 ( 22000) < F414EPE (26000)

Only wet thrust info was available in GE website.

Other physical specs please check above link

The M88 for commonality with the IAF's Rafales and the strategic autonomy that will provide transcends the outright spec IMHO.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The M88 for commonality with the IAF's Rafales and the strategic autonomy that will provide transcends the outright spec IMHO.

The specs of existing engine in the M-88 family doesn't matter a lot. We don't want to redesign the Rafale intakes so we keep to use the same engine with technology upgrades. But for a new plane you can choose between 7.5 t and 11 t thrust in the M-88 family.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The specs of existing engine in the M-88 family doesn't matter a lot. We don't want to redesign the Rafale intakes so we keep to use the same engine with technology upgrades. But for a new plane you can choose between 7.5 t and 11 t thrust in the M-88 family.

The Mk.2 will be massively redesigned anyway and the intakes's design were always going to be changed to accomadate the different requirements of the F414 so there is the scope to design the LCA MK.2 around the M88 (perhaps full spec version with 11T).

@Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @knight11 @ni8mare @PARIKRAMA surely this is the optimal approach and then ork with SNEMCA to develop an M88 derivative for the AMCA?

I just hope inertia and poltical considerations (bootlicking the Americans by this current GoI) don't get in the way.

 

[knight11]

The Mk.2 will be massively redesigned anyway and the intakes's design were always going to be changed to accomadate the different requirements of the F414 so there is the scope to design the LCA MK.2 around the M88 (perhaps full spec version with 11T).

@Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @knight11 @ni8mare @PARIKRAMA surely this is the optimal approach and then ork with SNEMCA to develop an M88 derivative for the AMCA?

I just hope inertia and poltical considerations (bootlicking the Americans by this current GoI) don't get in the way.

Sorry I differ with your views brother

1. Integrated Modular avionics development from Thales is the key for the AMCA. Kindly read about that.

2. Developing Airframe, is not difficult part, but the real challenge for the AMCA would be Powerplant and Avionics and Sensors.

3. Rafale build in India rather HAL or any pvt company will benifit India, with huge number of Sub contractors and companies building various LRU's and avionics in the country.

4. Whether F414 or M88, they should be used initially but, should be powered by Kaveri -- 115KN turbofan Engine.

5. We are fortunate that HAL is already working on Mirrge 2000-5 upgrade with MDPU, and the other planes having such features are HAWK trainer, and Rafale. P.S both F-22 and F-35 have such avionics artitecture and you cannot build 5th Gen AMCA with 486 Mission computer brother.

 

[Abingdonboy]

1. Integrated Modular avionics development from Thales is the key for the AMCA. Kindly read about that.

Yup, 100% and the Rafale buy will help in that regard.

2. Developing Airframe, is not difficult part, but the real challenge for the AMCA would be Powerplant and Avionics and Sensors.

Indeed and it is important to have a clear roadmap early on instead of running into the same issues as the LCA that forced the Kaveri to be de-linked from the main LCA project.

3. Rafale build in India rather HAL or any pvt company will benifit India, with huge number of Sub contractors and companies building various LRU's and avionics in the country.

Exactly right, the industrial base is going to swell as well as improve qualatatively as the technologies that France will bring to India are going to cutting edge and world class (not so much with the Russians thus far).

4. Whether F414 or M88, they should be used initially but, should be powered by Kaveri -- 115KN turbofan Engine.

That would be ideal but will require a huge amount of effort and I think it will be better to leverage the M88's induction in the IAF and the willingness of the French to work with India for the Kaveri rather than the negligable support GE would offer. I think @Picdelamirand-oil has said that there was a proposal to build the Kaveri around the M88 core.

It seems more logical at this point to ditch the F414 for the LCA Mk.2 and any plans there may have been to have the 414 EPE on the AMCA.


Not so sure we disagree that much my friend.

 

[knight11]

 

[Abingdonboy]

Thanks for the information @knight11 It's very interesting, whilst I knew about the MDPU, I wasn't aware that only the F-22,F-35, Rafale and Mirage 2000-9 (and now -5 Mk.2 of the IAF) had it, I assumed the Typhoon and Gripen NG would have it. Hopefully HAL's work on the Mirage upgrade trickles down to the LCA Mk.2 and AMCA with these cutting edge technologies.

 

[knight11]

Thanks for the information @knight11 It's very interesting, whilst I knew about the MDPU, I wasn't aware that only the F-22,F-35, Rafale and Mirage 2000-9 (and now -5 Mk.2 of the IAF) had it, I assumed the Typhoon and Gripen NG would have it. Hopefully HAL's work on the Mirage upgrade trickles down to the LCA Mk.2 and AMCA with these cutting edge technologies.

Thanks now you know actually why Mirage 2000 upgrade cost was so high ?? And why India didn't gone for the Israeli solution of Upgrade. One more thing of French Aircraft is the quality of the Tools. Only few tools is required for checking the Airframe integrity, and the commonality with the Rafale with the Mirage 2000.

Beside that French Navigation System, and Targetting Pod, and as you know very well IAF love MICA, I would love to have them in LCA Tejas MK-1 but its damn costly.

 

[Taygibay]

Total data fusion was conceptualized for the Rafale. The UAE required it
for their Mirage 2000 and the resulting cooperation made it better for
both. MDPU appeared on Rafale at F2 standard.
Between its original central network units and MDPU, volume decreased
by 50 %, power requirements by a whooping 60 % and weight by 25%.

​

I am surprised to learn that you did not know Abingdon mate!
When I discuss jet fighters, I sort of assume that such major
qualities are known. Rafale is data-fusion and network centric.
The only so called 5th Gen trait it lacks is VLO instead of LO.

And it has a get-around solution to that, Tay.

 

[knight11]

@Taygibay our Airforce loves MICA specially IR -- I understand its light wt, and its original range is secret, but it has best propulsion. Is there any plan for new Generation MICA -- More smart, Lofter profile, longer range.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am surprised to learn that you did not know Abingdon mate!

I knew the MDPU was on the Rafale and thus assumed it was to be found across a large number of plaforms, to find out that the pool is limited to the F-22/35, the (upgraded) Mirage 2000s and the Rafales is really quite shocking to me and a pleasant surprise indeed if you're looking at it from an Indian perspective

The only so called 5th Gen trait it lacks is VLO instead of LO.

And even "VLO" is a bit of a farce and can be defeated given the right tactics/system employment. It's this that frustrates me when certain ignoramuses start claiming the F-35 can be the only logical choice for the IN or that the J-20/31 is simply better because of their "stealth" properties. The sheer quality and power of the Rafale's systems means it will easily be one of the world's most capable fighters for the next 2 decades (at least). There is a reason the French armed forces have no inclination for a so-called "5th gen" platform, they know they are onto a winner.

Thanks now you know actually why Mirage 2000 upgrade cost was so high ?? And why India didn't gone for the Israeli solution of Upgrade. One more thing of French Aircraft is the quality of the Tools. Only few tools is required for checking the Airframe integrity, and the commonality with the Rafale with the Mirage 2000..

Well put, I was never one of those critics who compared the price of the MiG-29UPG and Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 upgrades as that was foolish beyond beleif given all the benefits the Mirgae upgrade was bringing. The MiG-29UPG is pretty tame in comparison and a relatively standard MLU really.

Beside that French Navigation System, and Targetting Pod, and as you know very well IAF love MICA, I would love to have them in LCA Tejas MK-1 but its damn costly.

The IAF, interestingly, have chosen the LITENING over the DAMOCLES at every opportunity.

 

[Taygibay]

Is there any plan for new Generation MICA -- More smart, Lofter profile, longer range.

It's called Mica NG, of course, and is on its slow way.

"The budget includes replacing the Mica with the Mica NG, with fresh propellant and new sensors."​

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...laurent-collet-billon-dga-interview/71263534/
​

Have a great day, Tay.

 

[knight11]

The IAF, interestingly, have chosen the LITENING over the DAMOCLES at every opportunity.

Cost factor.

The IAF, interestingly, have chosen the LITENING over the DAMOCLES at every opportunity.

Cost factor.

 

[Taygibay]

I knew the MDPU was on the Rafale and thus assumed it was to be found across a large number of plaforms, to find out that the pool is limited to the F-22/35, the (upgraded) Mirage 2000s and the Rafales is really quite shocking to me and a pleasant surprise indeed if you're looking at it from an Indian perspective

This requires a precision. Those are the first planes made around data fusion and network.
They're designed that way. Other planes use these concepts but as patches on an earlier
design. They attempt to mimic total data fusion.
For instance, Typhoon goes :

​

There is an MDP in there and a unifying bus, it's not as elegantly simple though.
Data fusion means that all available informations are weighed & sorted first so
that you can intervene at any logic level to consolidate input/output values.
Rafale, F-22 & F-35 are built for it and M2000s gained it. Others could too ...

Just sayin' Tay.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Total data fusion was conceptualized for the Rafale. The UAE required it
for their Mirage 2000 and the resulting cooperation made it better for
both. MDPU appeared on Rafale at F2 standard.
Between its original central network units and MDPU, volume decreased
by 50 %, power requirements by a whooping 60 % and weight by 25%.

I have made a complementary explanation here:
https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-4#post-8263610