Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[ultron]

This deal dates back to 2005. This is like the longest deal in human history.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

This deal dates back to 2005. This is like the longest deal in human history.

For the hawk it was 22 years.

 

[BON PLAN]

This deal dates back to 2005. This is like the longest deal in human history.

There is a black hole near India.... Time doesn't spent there like in every other country.

 

[Spectre]

There is a black hole near India.... Time doesn't spent there like in every other country.

That was a clever remark. India has at times been referred to as black hole but for reasons far more racist than I assume you mean.

On point - The delay has to do with priorities. In short despite the alarming shortfall in numbers, the present geo-political climate does not impose urgency.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That was a clever remark. India has at times been referred to as black hole but for reasons far more racist than I assume you mean.

On point - The delay has to do with priorities. In short despite the alarming shortfall in numbers, the present geo-political climate does not impose urgency.

The main problem is to increase the number of pilot. For that you need to fly more. You have two solutions :

• Increase the fligh hours of existing aircrafts ===> need a good availability and there is problems with Mig and perhaps Sukhoi too
• Buy new planes (possibly with good availability)

 

[Abingdonboy]

On point - The delay has to do with priorities. In short despite the alarming shortfall in numbers, the present geo-political climate does not impose urgency.

This is a very weak argument sir. It is not just a question to responding to the security threat (which by the way is becoming increasingly unfavourable for India contrary to what you seem to have asserted) but also a question of flight safety. Today MiG-21s and 27s are in service that are decades past their life spans and need to be replaced or does the "geo-poltical climate" negate that requirement also?

The delay has to do with incompetence, let us not delude ourselves it is borne out of hardheaded clear decsion making to prioritise, if that was the case the military wouldn't be returning billions in unspent funds every year.

Against a sanctioned strength of 42 fighter SQNs the IAF curently has less than 30 (some say it is as low as 24), this isn't about geo-poltical climates but minimum force levels. Threats can emerge at an instant before you have time to raise the requsite force levels and fighter jets take a LONG time to induct, this is why you have sanctioned strength, force levels, standing militaries and capability benchmarking. To say "we will only do X when the situation necessitates it" is all that is wrong with reactive decsion making that plagues India.

 

[Spectre]

This is a very weak argument sir. It is not just a question to responding to the security threat (which by the way is becoming increasingly unfavourable for India contrary to what you seem to have asserted) but also a question of flight safety. Today MiG-21s and 27s are in service that are decades past their life spans and need to be replaced or does the "geo-poltical climate" negate that requirement also?

The delay has to do with incompetence, let us not delude ourselves it is borne out of hardheaded clear decsion making to prioritise, if that was the case the military wouldn't be returning billions in unspent funds every year.

Against a sanctioned strengto of 42 fighrer SQNs the IAF curently has less than 30 (some say it is as low as 24), this isn't about geo-poltical climates but minimum force levels. Threats can emerge at an instant before you have time to raise the requsite force levels and fighter jets take a LONG time to induct, this is why you have sanctioned strength, force levels, standing militaries and capability benchmarking. To say "we will only do X when the situation necessitates it" is all that is wrong with reactive decsion making that plagues India.

Good Arguments. I concede to all of them.

I didn't mean to say that the delay is intentional but just that in absence of clear and imminent threat hanging over our heads, the institutional lethargy is as of yet undisturbed.

The main problem is to increase the number of pilot. For that you need to fly more. You have two solutions :

• Increase the fligh hours of existing aircrafts ===> need a good availability and there is problems with Mig and perhaps Sukhoi too
• Buy new planes (possibly with good availability)

Certainly this is an issue but may be pilots from the retiring aircrafts can be accommodated in newer aircrafts. As such we are not going to see a deluge of new aircrafts anytime soon. Rafales if and when they come will come over a span of three or four years and by then equivalent or greater number of older migs would have retired.

As for new pilots certainly your suggestions hold merit and are being worked upon by India.

 

[Taygibay]

the institutional lethargy is as of yet undisturbed.

How very poetic a way to put it! Quite my thing, Tay.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I didn't mean to say that the delay is intentional but just that in absence of clear and imminent threat hanging over our heads, the institutional lethargy is as of yet undisturbed.

Well that makes sense and it's why post 26/11 the NSG look like this:

But on 26/11 they were like this:

The question is, does the Indian leadership want to allow another crisis to occur before they do their jobs?


I go back to the infamous quote that is all too perfect for India:


'Nowhere have I seen such Lions led by such Lambs.-General Max von Gallwitz

 

[DrSomnath999]

Rafale On Instalments Is The Answer To Defence Ministry's Tight Budget




When the Rafale fighter deal with France is inked later this year, the Ministry of Defence or MoD will have to pay nearly Rs 6000 crore for it, which is roughly one-tenth of the total cost of the deal, top Ministry officials told NDTV.

"I am not unduly worried," a top a Ministry official told NDTV, adding, "out of box thinking and imaginative accounting will see us through."

Although, final price negotiations are still on, the Rafale purchase deal is likely to cost India about Rs 60,000 crore.
Rafale On Instalments Is The Answer To Defence Ministry's Tight Budget

 

[Abingdonboy]

"out of box thinking and imaginative accounting will see us through."

The MoD/Military are certainly good at the latter part (shifting funds from CAPEX to OPEX for example or lumping the vertan pensions bill with the defence budget) but not so much the former.

 

[Spectre]

How very poetic a way to put it! Quite my thing, Tay.

I know many people aren't going to like this but if anyone has analysed the budget in detail then the focus is to do more with less when it comes to defence. Oil Slump Bonanza which could have funded a major deal as many here have envisioned was diverted to rural sector in order to kick start rural economy and demand.

The deal when it is signed (it will be - solely to save face) will be for the publicly stated numbers and increments would be need based in far future (>5 years)

The rise and fall of emotions of it's proponents in India, the gloating, the envy, the tragedy and comedy - everything is quite Shakespearean in scope. However the time has come to temper expectations.

I am actually in support of this down-sizing of expectations as Rafales provide a short-cut to solving our woes but in the long term doesn't address the root cause which is pathetic state of domestic industry when compared to western peers. The culture of innovation, efficiency and target based closure of projects need to be instilled if we are to ever become relatively self-sufficient. Sure this might hurt - badly at that - in short term but in long term gains will be worth while. The other danger of massive procurement of Rafales is geo-political which I will address in some other thread.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

FCAS: a Franco-British budget of 2 billion for a prototype

Google Translate

 

[DrSomnath999]

A Rafale chases a drone came from Belgium

A large drone came from Belgium, which operators lost control, crashed Monday afternoon in the Aisne after being remotely monitored by a Rafale. Here, a drone of the Belgian police.

REUTERS / Francois Lenoir

A large drone came from Belgium, which operators lost control, crashed Monday afternoon in the Aisne after being remotely monitored by a Rafale.
This is the story of a drone which does as its head. A large apparatus that distorts company to its owners has passed Monday the French-Belgian border before crashing in the Aisne, while remote monitoring by a Rafale .

At exactly 2:33 p.m., the Belgian authorities informed the French authorities that a drone large, operated by a private organization making the area of control, had just entered French airspace, said a spokesman for the Air Force. A minute later, the High defense authority alerted the air force who was off seven minutes later a burst of the air base of Saint Dizier, in the Haute-Marne.

A drone launched at 140 km / h


Half an hour later, the Rafale pilot saw the craft launched 140 km / h, a large drone but which carried no charge under his wing, rendering it harmless. Soon after, the drone of the engine stops, and he falls. "The Belgians who followed him have not destroyed because it was flying over built-up areas" in clear Tuesday Colonel Yves-Marie Guillou micro France Info .

The craft crashed in a field, causing no damage, in the municipality of Dizy-le-Gros, about fifty km from Reims. The police immediately went there and secured the area.
Google Traduction

P.S perhaps remind me of shooting of balloons by Su30mki in western border
but rafale didnt shoot that drone BTW

 

[Abingdonboy]

I know many people aren't going to like this but if anyone has analysed the budget in detail then the focus is to do more with less when it comes to defence

I'm not so sure about that. "less" implies there budget has been cut when, in fact, it has remained rather static and in reality the CAPEX has been (marginally) increased for 2016-17.

The deal when it is signed (it will be - solely to save face) will be for the publicly stated numbers and increments would be need based in far future (>5 years)

I'm sorry sir but this is illogical for a whole host of reasons. 36 Rafales is not an economical purchase as it wil be impossible for the IAF to sustain their high level of availability that they have stated they want- circa 90%, with such a limited number nor would such a measly order offer any form of "face saving" whatsoever as there would be 0 industrial benfits (the door is wide open for "fake in India" chants to be hurled at Modi), this limited number would be increidbly expensive to maintain (leaving the door open for unlimited scathing CAG reports) and crucially it wouldn't address the crippling force depletion thathas and will continue to hit the IAF.

It is 0 Rafales or 100+, it is as simple as that, there is no middle ground that would offer a "face saving" option because that defies all logic.

I am actually in support of this down-sizing of expectations as Rafales provide a short-cut to solving our woes but in the long term doesn't address the root cause which is pathetic state of domestic industry when compared to western peers.

This is neither here nor there as the Rafale orders are not going to affect the domestic efforts (see LCA) in any shape or form, rather they would actully be a boon for such efforts (ToT and techical expertise of one of the world's most capable aerospace giants). Furthermore, one cannot ignore the operational requirements of the IAF. They are mandated to acheive 42 sanctioned SQNs by 2025, with the current rate of inductions (MKI and proposed LCA and FGFA) and de-inductions (MiG-21, 27, some Jags) this simply won't be possible without a third production line in India (MKI/FGFA, LCA and Rafale). My friend @PARIKRAMA can provide the exact figures and analysis of how to reach 42 SQNs by 2025 and 50 by 2030 (as the GoI has long since envisaged)