Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[AUSTERLITZ]

I would like to comment something..but really just too fed up with unbelievable delays in the mmrca deal..its been a decade ffs.Till the day the deal is ACTUALLY signed i'm treating every news i get about signing 'soon','this month' as hype.Im seriously skeptical about how mny naval rafales there will be ...IAF cant get a mere 36 ...and u guys are talking about more than that for carrier - the navy will have more rafales than IAF?I wish this was true,that IAF gets its requirement of 100 plus ..but im quite pessimistic about thw whole affair atm.

 

[Dash]

I am not good at speculating, being away from the Aerospace industry for close to a decade now, I am quite cut off from general development and industry mindset.

India has a price point advantage for general engineering product development, but knowing US engineering industry, critical component, even as trivial as a profile for a screw compressor is guarded with utmost priority to such extent that even quality and ops cannot get access to design engineering data within the same organisation in the same country. So this entire idea that International Aerospace industry will outsource components to Indian counter parts, which in turn will gain engineering know how and in turn will benefit local industry is beyond my comprehension. If I am wrong, great, but I have my apprehensions based on my experience.

I used to discuss this with sancho who was a great proponent of technology transfer driving local engineering development. Till date I maintain, there is no alternate to what we used to call "ragda",it roughly translates to sit down and relentlessly design. I pretty much owe everything to this philosophy, where engineer/s is/are given a system/design problem. Utilize 9 step to formulate strategy and 7 ways to for solution approach, and then sit down and design. No other task until you come up with the solution. This "ragda" strategy got us fuel increase in Mig21Bison, integration of jammer, integration for Mission computers, LCA aerofoil and aeroframe, pretty much all of the jigs and fixtures in HAL (albeit some of it was just by intuitive nature of engineering connect that the technicians had with the platform and production back then). I was programmed with this in formative days, so everytime I have to adapt a Tech Transfer i cringe at the G2. Purely from engineering standpoint, I will take an under-performing GTRX kaveri over a tech transfer GE 404, because I know more on my system that I have developed that I can ever know about a system I was donated by some other dude.

Apologize for the rant, I don't think this addresses your query. But apna hi thread hai.

Sorry for the late response bro. I was traveling hence the late.
To be honest you have answered my query and exceeded it by some points yet some part of it was answered and my bad I wasn't articulate enough.

What I was trying to zero in is at the potential that Boeing might have in creating a world class defense manufacturing industry for defense supplies and production for its various jets. Something China leveraged while working across industrial domain. What if tomorrow all defense companies set up manufacturing units in India? Unemployment will be answered along with advancement of technical skills?

Could we take this opportunity sans the IAF requirements?

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Some information on Source based news on Gripen Bid...
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• Sweden PM Stefan Lofven had a small talk with PM NaMo when both met in Mumbai for MII inauguration program. Both were joined by Saab CEO Hakan Bushke.
• Saab has offered to partner with an Indian company in a JV with Saab investing 49% to develop on the product line Gripen NG further and finish the product with Indian side inputs and requirements.
• This finished product will commence the final production in India and also plan for a naval variant after that.
• This product will require a full so called 100% Technology transfer from Sweden to India for which Sweden government will allow Saab as well as provide them with taxation relief as they have done for Gripen project
• The technology transfer will be for the product line Gripen NG or Gripen E not for earlier models in any manner.
• PM Lofven and Saab CEO Hakan Bushke has appraised PM NaMo that Indian light fighter requirements is almost 400 and Gripen new product with Indian inputs can parallely supply and meet 50% of this requirement or 200 light fighter jets easily
• Further to this, PM Lofven has said in front of Saab chief Bushke to PM NaMo that Saab will use G2G route to sell of other products in the field of Surveillance, Electronic Warfare systems, and battle management systems for IAF as well as IN plus an added impetus for ICG for coastal security systems.
• Also it was said that Saab already has multiple partnership in India as part of making a pyramid supply chain of ensuring component manufacturing in India to sub assembly level and will expand it further once Saab project of Gripen in India starts to ensure Indian MIC makes everything from component to sub assembly to assembly level things
• These partnership includes renowned names like Pipavav Defence, Bharat Electronics, HAL , Kalyani Strategic Systems and Ashok Leyland. The other smaller players are also there

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Comments
Clearly if you see Saab is using the magic trick of this figure of ADA

And rehashing it as their idea for MII.

What is interesting is first few lines and this supply chain indicates they essentially want LCA MK2 to be replaced completely with Gripen NG with "sweet words" of designing the product further and finish it with Indian inputs before final production.

it also aims to look at almost 200 units or whatever is 50% of Indian Light fighter jet requirements. It aslo talks with the word "parallel" and trying to say they bring no harm to LCA product line.

Saab also plans for other product sales but via G2G route

A question i am wondering is for meeting fleet strength if Saab offer is really considered then essentially MK2 is game over..

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@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @raktaka @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @cerberus @Ankit Kumar @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ

Boeing seems to have a strong case and rest are pressure tactics imo

 

[Abingdonboy]

What I was trying to zero in is at the potential that Boeing might have in creating a world class defense manufacturing industry for defense supplies and production for its various jets. Something China leveraged while working across industrial domain. What if tomorrow all defense companies set up manufacturing units in India? Unemployment will be answered along with advancement of technical skills?

Could we take this opportunity sans the IAF requirements?

Right, but this is already happening. Indian companies are already producing sub-assemblies for Boeing products such as the 787, CH-47F, Ah-64, 737/P-8 and even the F-18.

But Boeing are saying that if India wants a complete end-end production line of the F-18 in India thye need to commit to 100+ fighters for themselves and they can then look at exporting. And this makes sense because take the IAF/IN off the table and where are future F-18 orders going to come from? The USN is switching to the F-35 and the RAAF has already received their F-18SHs and will, at most, order 1-2 SQNs more as an interim to their F-35 orders.

There really is no market for the F-18 beyond 2018 so it is India or bust for Boeing and hence why they are now trying to ram this option down India's throat.

Boeing seems to have a strong case and rest are pressure tactics imo

"Strong" until you factor in the USG who will have the final say for the next 40 year life span of this production line and support infrastructure thereafter. Addtionally, Boeing, unlike Dassualt, are insisiting that they maintain complete control over the F-18 production line in India meaning no Indian entity would benefit, no IPRs would be transfered, no massive skill devlopment would occur, no ToT on critical tech would take place and the IAF/IN would be beholden to Boeing throughout the product's life for even sub MRO support (when right now the IAF conducts this in-house and the Rafale would allow them to conduct even some MRO activites at a SQN level).

It's a hollow offer that would please Boeing's shareholders and some US congressmen but not the GoI, IAF, IN or Indian taxpayer as a whole. @PARIKRAMA

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I had been asking in the other thread where @Abingdonboy you have yet no graced with your presence
Here is the link
US close to signing deals with India in defence, communications: Pacific Command

@Dash
I urge you to give your view there

As you both will see GOI seems to have made up their mind of signing the foundational agreements.. But tangibly what's their to gain.. The strings attached to any US product be it LM F16 or Boeing F18 seems too huge.. The carrot dangled is more about access to technology and India gaining from it.. The question I asked was will US gov make an exception to us? Mist probably no as Senate and industry lobby would never want India to hold know how but rather depend upon them for as long as possible for every bit related to the platform and weapon system..

There are more carrots being dangled like India becoming the new MRO service center for global fleet and India can earn handsomely for next 25 years.. But what skills development it will enable India is a good question mark

I will stop here but urge you folks there to give views.. Here this will go off topic..

But of course both topics foundational agreements and Boeing F18 or LM F 16 are related..

 

[MilSpec]

Sorry for the late response bro. I was traveling hence the late.
To be honest you have answered my query and exceeded it by some points yet some part of it was answered and my bad I wasn't articulate enough.

What I was trying to zero in is at the potential that Boeing might have in creating a world class defense manufacturing industry for defense supplies and production for its various jets. Something China leveraged while working across industrial domain. What if tomorrow all defense companies set up manufacturing units in India? Unemployment will be answered along with advancement of technical skills?

Could we take this opportunity sans the IAF requirements?

Employment is good, these big companies have great talent managment programs, so yes, it will benefit local talent. but If the caveat is them coming to India expecting as share in the pie just because they are here, then it's doubt-full....Indian private sector needs to wake up and Indian public sector needs a shake up. Wake and Shake!

 

[randomradio]

So as we both predicted its just LCA and Rafale according to PSK too..

That part is not entirely correct. Parrikar was talking about importing 1 more jet or two if necessary. That 2nd jet is either the LCA or a foreign jet. So we will still need 3 production lines.

And you and @Abingdonboy don't have to worry. Even if the MoD chooses Gripen, it won't endanger the LCA program. The LCA has higher priority as a program. That's why SAAB is packaging cooperation for LCA along with their own jet and trying to make a win-win situation.

The bigger problem is ADA seems to be more excited about the AMCA.

 

[Abingdonboy]

That part is not entirely correct. Parrikar was talking about importing 1 more jet or two if necessary. That 2nd jet is either the LCA or a foreign jet. So we will still need 3 production lines.

And you and @Abingdonboy don't have to worry. Even if the MoD chooses Gripen, it won't endanger the LCA program. The LCA has higher priority as a program. That's why SAAB is packaging cooperation for LCA along with their own jet and trying to make a win-win situation.

The bigger problem is ADA seems to be more excited about the AMCA.

I would still much rather 400+ LCA (Mk.1, Mk.1A and MK.2) than 200 LCA and 200 Gripen. By the very nature of business it is against SAAB's interests to help develop the LCA to be a Gripen NG competitor (that the MK.2 would be). Hence all SAAB offers (for Gripen in the IAF and help with the LCA) should be rejected outright.

 

[surya kiran]

The bigger problem is ADA seems to be more excited about the AMCA.

Do not worry. Once, the Rafale thing is out of the way, the IAF will suddenly find love with the LCA. And will ask for Mk IA.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Do not worry. Once, the Rafale thing is out of the way, the IAF will suddenly find love with the LCA. And will ask for Mk IA.

Haha, so true. The IAF is, rightly, concered that the babus/polticans will interpret "we love the LCA" to mean "the LCA is all we need".

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Few beautiful pictures (may be old also or already posted)

Credit to Rafale Addict

Credit to Frederic Boeckler

Credit to Alpha Rafale .. This is from Singapore Airshow

Again Credit to Alpha Rafale .. This is also from Singapore Airshow

 

[halloweene]

Few beautiful pictures (may be old also or already posted)

Credit to Rafale Addict

Credit to Frederic Boeckler

Credit to Alpha Rafale .. This is from Singapore Airshow

Again Credit to Alpha Rafale .. This is also from Singapore Airshow

Do you know who is Fred Boeckler?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Do you know who is Fred Boeckler?

If I am not wrong he is in Istres and is part of Rafale program .. As Engineer Test Analyst.. Most famously piloted the 301 as the instrument plane analyst or in simple words a test pilot..

 

[Stephen Cohen]

If I am not wrong he is in Istres and is part of Rafale program .. As Engineer Test Analyst.. Most famously piloted the 301 as the instrument plane analyst or in simple words a test pilot..

Hello Sir

Love your passion and knowledge

Was banned for a while but enjoyed reading your posts

 

[Hulk]

3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine
6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems
10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene

I am telling this since from many months that abandon this Rafale deal, we are getting robbed.

We have NO REASON WITH US TO ACQUIRE IT. Bying rafale @270 million/per piece will be the biggest blunder in the Indian History.

I am beginning to see that we selected wrong fighter maybe. It maybe more capable but value for money is also a factor. Also, do we really need the extra.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Hello Sir

Love your passion and knowledge

Was banned for a while but enjoyed reading your posts

Welcome back bro.. Was missing you for a long time.. Go nice and easy .. Don err to go again for a long holiday.. Need good members like you here ...

Don't get into flame bait wars.. Those threads are the reason why most of our friends go for forced holidays..