Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[raktaka]

Dassault
Revenue €3.680 billion (2014) ===> $ 4 billion
Number of employees 11,745 (2014)
Productivity ($/employees) = $ 340570
Dassault Aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
HAL
Revenue 177.532614 billion (US$2.6 billion) (2014) ====> $ 2.6 billion
Number of employees 32108 (March, 2014)
Productivity ($/employees) = 80976
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you fail to recognize is that for Good & Services IN INDIA the true value is measured in PPP. Which in India's case is 3.7 X the USD.

So in effect HAL productivity is =80976 x 3.7 = 2,99,611 $ which is not so different from Dassault.

To put it in perspective, Dassault Only manufactures around 24 Rafale per year and 12 Falcon per year. (correct me about falcon if I am wrong) i.e 36 Aircraft's per year.

HAL produces per year,

1. 10 Dorniers 228 - 10
2. ALH Dhruv - 36
3. LCA - 12
4. Su 30MKI - 16
5. Hawk - 24
6 Cheetah - 10

Total = 108 Aircafts per year (approx)

This is not including the LCH, LUH, IJT, etc.


Just because you cannot see something, does't mean it does not exist.

 

[raktaka]

Even though Gripen NG is a good jet but how will we gain by getting Gripen from SAAB?
Source and internal research says

• Gripen is making a major push for India’s large fighter purchase.
• They have a modified version of the Gripen NG, the Gripen IN, which is designed especially for India.
• It will produce the majority of the fighters in India, allowing India to eventually export their version of the Gripen.
• Price is about $65-70 million a plane, and technology transfers tend to be major selling points.
• Loaded with weapons reaches $80-85 Mn approx
• Customization cost will be different for IAF specific weapons and other specific needs.

Price
Source 1
The price of Gripen C/D is estimated around USD 61 Mn as per Philippines talks as per a news report in June 2015

View attachment 294260
Saab Jas 39 Gripen C/D Version Fighter Jets for the Philippines on its Way Soon

Source 2
According to Brazilian bid for Gripen NG (36 in numbers - 28 single and 8 double) the price is USD 4.8 Bn
Also,
The SECC, which loaned US $6.8 billion to support the overseas contract attainment activities of Swedish exporters in 2014, has approved a $4.8 billion credit to Brazil to cover the cost of acquisition for the Gripen NGs.

In addition, the SECC has extended a $245.3 million credit to allow Brazil to acquire weapons systems for the aircraft. The loans, which were green-lighted by the Brazilian Federal Senate on Aug. 5, carry a negotiated interest rate of 2.19 percent.

Sweden, Brazil Pursue Deeper Cooperation With $4.7B Gripen NG Deal

All inclusive package price puts USD 133 Mn per jet and weapons extra

Its estimated that Jet would be close to USD 75-80 Mn assuming 55-60% of the cost
Weapons add around USD 7 Mn more per jet so all inclusive around USD 82-87 Mn.
Point to note is weapons package is minimal here

Source 3
Reuters quote the deal to Be USD 5.4 Bn with USD 245 Mn for Weapons
UPDATE 2-Sweden lowers loan cost in Saab fighter deal for Brazil| Reuters
all inclusive package price puts Gripen at USD 150 Mn except weapons

That pegs jet around USD 85-90 Mn and weapons loaded at USD 7Mn to cost closer to USD 90-97 Mn assuming a similar 60% cost

Source 4
Flight global says its USD 4.68 Bn
Brazil finalises $4.68bn Gripen NG deal
Based on that package excluding weapons comes to USD 130 Mn or USD 75-78 Mn per jet cost
With weapons its USD 82-85 Mn

In terms of CPFH
As on 2014 beginning
The global fleet of Gripens now operated by the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, Sweden and Thailand has logged 203,000 flight hours, according to Saab. The Swedish air force lists its current per-hour operating cost with the type as being around SKr48,000 ($7,560).
Saab reveals full Gripen E design, cost savings

Now estimated in and around USD 7000 on lower side and upper side USD 7500

IPR holding
Barring few most IPR are not held by Saab and will require some leeway from BAe and other US majors to allow technology transfer. BAe also holds a veto power.
Some also says few IP rights will be given to Brazil as per their deal perhaps jointly owned..


+++
So in all estimation around USD 65-70 Mn approx for India for a bigger order and weapons loaded closer to USD 80-85 Mn

• The question to ask what it brings to us that we should consider Gripen NG? As most things are not under Saab's control...
• Effectively is it not end game for LCA MK2?
• In terms of CPFH its smack in the middle of LCA and Rafale but undercutting both will help IAF how?
• Since there are plans for sea gripen, will that eat up LCA-N MK2 too?
• What technology can be used for say AMCA? Is it superior to combination of Rafale+FGFA derived tech?

What about the initial cost for manufacturing line? Will 40% cost which i left cover bases infra+training+support+services+others? or will that inflate more owing to multiple bases need?

@randomradio
Can you help with some data about Light Stealth Aircraft you talked about.. Wish to understand if Gripen NG is superior or inferior to that product potential?

The fact that Brazil brought Grippen should put all speculation to rest. It was clearly the one that gave most value for money. (including local production)

Since its Engine is US and is subject to "strings", how doe it matter if other parts have the same problem ? That is illogical. 100% of Rafale is not French either.

Yes, Gripen is the final nail in the LCA's life size coffin. IAF will effectively close it down. Remember IAF is buying LAC against its will and Gripen is just the damn excuse they were looking for.

As long as IAF purchase 100+ LCA, it will have no option but to use it and then blame it for the rest of its life. That will never change.

IAF criticism should not be a factor when deciding strategic development of Local jet.

 

[Dash]

As long as IAF purchase 100+ LCA, it will have no option but to use it and then blame it for the rest of its life. That will never change.

IAF criticism should not be a factor when deciding strategic development of Local jet.

Please illuminate me on what is "strategic" in the local development of Gripen, apart from the same thing what we are doing for MKIs.

 

[raktaka]

Please illuminate me on what is "strategic" in the local development of Gripen, apart from the same thing what we are doing for MKIs.

LCA development and production is strategic. Grippen purchase is Tactical.

MKI is strategic because we have 100% ToT and local manufacturing from raw materials.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Even though Gripen NG is a good jet but how will we gain by getting Gripen from SAAB?
Source and internal research says

• Gripen is making a major push for India’s large fighter purchase.
• They have a modified version of the Gripen NG, the Gripen IN, which is designed especially for India.
• It will produce the majority of the fighters in India, allowing India to eventually export their version of the Gripen.
• Price is about $65-70 million a plane, and technology transfers tend to be major selling points.
• Loaded with weapons reaches $80-85 Mn approx
• Customization cost will be different for IAF specific weapons and other specific needs.

Price
Source 1
The price of Gripen C/D is estimated around USD 61 Mn as per Philippines talks as per a news report in June 2015

View attachment 294260
Saab Jas 39 Gripen C/D Version Fighter Jets for the Philippines on its Way Soon

Source 2
According to Brazilian bid for Gripen NG (36 in numbers - 28 single and 8 double) the price is USD 4.8 Bn
Also,
The SECC, which loaned US $6.8 billion to support the overseas contract attainment activities of Swedish exporters in 2014, has approved a $4.8 billion credit to Brazil to cover the cost of acquisition for the Gripen NGs.

In addition, the SECC has extended a $245.3 million credit to allow Brazil to acquire weapons systems for the aircraft. The loans, which were green-lighted by the Brazilian Federal Senate on Aug. 5, carry a negotiated interest rate of 2.19 percent.

Sweden, Brazil Pursue Deeper Cooperation With $4.7B Gripen NG Deal

All inclusive package price puts USD 133 Mn per jet and weapons extra

Its estimated that Jet would be close to USD 75-80 Mn assuming 55-60% of the cost
Weapons add around USD 7 Mn more per jet so all inclusive around USD 82-87 Mn.
Point to note is weapons package is minimal here

Source 3
Reuters quote the deal to Be USD 5.4 Bn with USD 245 Mn for Weapons
UPDATE 2-Sweden lowers loan cost in Saab fighter deal for Brazil| Reuters
all inclusive package price puts Gripen at USD 150 Mn except weapons

That pegs jet around USD 85-90 Mn and weapons loaded at USD 7Mn to cost closer to USD 90-97 Mn assuming a similar 60% cost

Source 4
Flight global says its USD 4.68 Bn
Brazil finalises $4.68bn Gripen NG deal
Based on that package excluding weapons comes to USD 130 Mn or USD 75-78 Mn per jet cost
With weapons its USD 82-85 Mn

In terms of CPFH
As on 2014 beginning
The global fleet of Gripens now operated by the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, Sweden and Thailand has logged 203,000 flight hours, according to Saab. The Swedish air force lists its current per-hour operating cost with the type as being around SKr48,000 ($7,560).
Saab reveals full Gripen E design, cost savings

Now estimated in and around USD 7000 on lower side and upper side USD 7500

IPR holding
Barring few most IPR are not held by Saab and will require some leeway from BAe and other US majors to allow technology transfer. BAe also holds a veto power.
Some also says few IP rights will be given to Brazil as per their deal perhaps jointly owned..


+++
So in all estimation around USD 65-70 Mn approx for India for a bigger order and weapons loaded closer to USD 80-85 Mn

• The question to ask what it brings to us that we should consider Gripen NG? As most things are not under Saab's control...
• Effectively is it not end game for LCA MK2?
• In terms of CPFH its smack in the middle of LCA and Rafale but undercutting both will help IAF how?
• Since there are plans for sea gripen, will that eat up LCA-N MK2 too?
• What technology can be used for say AMCA? Is it superior to combination of Rafale+FGFA derived tech?

What about the initial cost for manufacturing line? Will 40% cost which i left cover bases infra+training+support+services+others? or will that inflate more owing to multiple bases need?

@randomradio
Can you help with some data about Light Stealth Aircraft you talked about.. Wish to understand if Gripen NG is superior or inferior to that product potential?

And by saying 90 million dollars for it , I am being very very soft.

This was in 2012.
Svensk Gripen E påstås dyrare än schweizisk - NyTeknik

Will need some Google Translate.

 

[Dash]

LCA development and production is strategic. Grippen is Tactical.

MKI is strategic because we have 100% ToT and local manufacturing from raw materials.

Gripen is suicidal imo and I will be heavily dissapointed if Gripen comes here. It will be the biggest joke for many reasons. Second, You have no idea what 100% ToT is visa viz SNK assembelly line for MKI. Lets leave it at that.

 

[raktaka]

Gripen is suicidal imo and I will be heavily dissapointed if Gripen comes here. It will be the biggest joke for many reasons. Second, You have no idea what 100% ToT is visa viz SNK assembelly line for MKI. Lets leave it at that.

I suspect I have a far greater understanding about MKI production in HAL that you can ever know. But that is irrelevant.

TO ramp up numbers for IAF we need a second production line of LCA, it is far more logical to have a production line of Grippen.

Having an US engine for LCA itself has been proven to be suicidal, but its too late to cry over spilt milk. When life gives you lemons, learn to make lemonade.

 

[Dash]

I suspect I have a far greater understanding about MKI production in HAL that you can ever know. But that is irrelevant.

Then please tell me what it is and I will be grateful.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

@PARIKRAMA
http://mobile2.bernerzeitung.ch/articles/551af635ab5c378d78000348
This one too

Plus I am not able to find that article right now.
But as I recall
Croatia was negotiating for 12 C/D Models in 2005-7 for about ~65 million dollars, per aircrafts excluding weapons , training etc .
It was C/D in 2007.

I wonder what Paper plane E/F cost in 2016.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

This was in 2012.

Svensk Gripen E påstås dyrare än schweizisk - NyTeknik

Will need some Google Translate.

Swedish Gripen E allegedly more expensive than Swiss
By: Monica Kleja
Published December 11, 2012 13:3875 Comments
Sweden have to pay 15-30 percent more for new Gripen E compared with Switzerland, says Swiss television. Today Tuesday the parliament vote on the purchase of the new Gripen system.

In the afternoon, after 15:30, keeps parliament a vote on the issue of Sweden should invest in renovating the Gripen system and buy 40-60 copies of the new Gripen E, or super-ja. Let the vote on Start - riksdagen.se

According to a Swiss television program Tagesschau research becomes more expensive to buy the plane for the Swedish taxpayers than the Swiss. Sweden is said to have to buy new Gripen E at a price that is 15-30 percent higher per plane, compared with the cost of taxpayers in Switzerland.

The price per plane to Switzerland is fixed and land of 100 million Swiss francs, or 745 million Swedish kronor for the Gripen E-flat, according Tagesschau.

Sweden, however, is said to buy the plane for between 115 and 130 million Swiss francs (860-970 million) per plane. The number varies depending on the equipment Sweden decide to buy the plane.

According Tagesschau be Defense Minister Karin Enstrom has confirmed that Sweden pays more per plane.

She is reported to have declared: "This price includes the development costs and the building of a new production chain" and that Swedish cooperation with Switzerland will be beneficial for Sweden in the long term.

Karin Enstrom's press secretary, Henrik Hedberg back shows that the defense minister ruled on the unit price per plane:

We have neither the schweiska or Swedish media commented on the price per plane, but we have been clear that if the running costs are included, the cost in Sweden to three billion per year, he says.

Karin Enstrom been in contact with Tagesschau is completely accurate, he says.

Switzerland plans to buy 22 aircraft, while the Swedish government proposes buying 40-60 plan. While advocates Supreme Commander Sverker Goranson Sweden to acquire the Gripen E fleet of 60 planes.

Swedish Defence Materiel Administration is currently negotiating with Saab about the price of the Swedish aircraft. Martin Kruse, project manager for the Gripen, at the FMV, told Ny Teknik that negotiations are planned to be completed during the first half of 2013. Before that he can not comment on the price.

A clear majority in parliament is expected to vote this afternoon through the historic decision. Both the Alliance government and the Social Democrats and the Sweden Democrats have announced that they intend to vote yes.

The Social Democrats, however, want to invest 300 million more per year for ten years. This is in addition to the increase in appropriations of 300 million per year for two years and 200 million per year in eight years, as the government suggests.

By: Monica Kleja
Mail reporter

http://mobile2.bernerzeitung.ch/articles/551af635ab5c378d78000348
This one too

Wednesday, September 26, 2012 15:31
Switzerland will have converted Occasions Gripen
News The draft Federal Council dispatch on the procurement of Gripen contains some surprises.

About 24,000 francs per flight hour: How much does the Gripen E, as can be calculated from a message draft of the Bundesrat to the Gripen procurement. (Photo: Keystone)
13
Me Gafner


The officially unpublished Federal Council dispatch on buying a new fighter aircraft carries political dynamite. In well 50-page paper that the "Basler Zeitung" in draft, the Bundesrat, was suddenly no longer "new" or "newly developed" aircraft, but only of a "development of the proven Gripen A and C".This description is consistent with the wording of the Swedish Government. This holds in its recent draft state budget 2013 which, Sweden wants 40 to 60 Gripen E "develop and rebuild," if Switzerland or another country at least 20 Gripen E buy. As a basis for the reconstruction (Swedish: Ombyggnad) are "old" Jets version Gripen C. Pro new Gripen E to use an old Gripen C.

Like new?
In design is marked "internal", the Federal Council writes in the chapter "criteria": "The aircraft will be procured and operated in the same hardware and software version, as they will be in the air force of the producing country in use . "Thus, previous data of Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer, army chief André Blattmann, Luftwaffe chief Markus Gygax and Armasuisse project Jürg Weber prove imprecise, which Switzerland will receive a new combat aircraft from Sweden.

The sub-committee of the National Council under the presidency of SVP National Thomas Hurter is still considered in its investigation report on the controversial jet purchase on August 20, 2012 of the Switzerland get new aircraft. The Commission, considering after surveys of various stakeholders on page 26 of its report that: "In particular, the representatives of the Air Force have pointed to the fact that the Gripen C / D can not be upgraded in a Gripen E / F. The Gripen E / F must be developed from scratch. "Based on the statements of the VBS representatives the subcommission ours look great majority also as a new aircraft.

Costs of 3.346 billion
From the message with date of 6 September 2012, shows that the Gripen project, the bottom line is more expensive than previously stated. For a fixed price of 3.126 billion francs for the purchase of 22 Gripen E 220 million Swiss francs will be added - for the planned sale of eleven Gripen C / D over five years.The cost of the five-year operation of this Mietjets not included, is thus given a total package price of 3.346 billion francs.

The draft procurement Embassy cleans up well with the partially existing idea that the Gripen E is suitable militia. "For use only professional military pilots come and no militia pilots questioned," is clearly on page 30 of the paper. And later we read that are provided for operating the Gripen 156 FTEs. These are made up of 41 professional military pilots, six professional officers "for the basic skills aerial reconnaissance and combat ground targets", three professional NCOs for training and 106 civilian agencies for ground staff.

Assembly takes place in Sweden
Looking up in the Gripen project has largely of government-owned defense contractor RUAG Aviation must be concluded from the draft. Contrary to the Offer conditions, which Switzerland has provided the three-party EADS, Dassault and Saab in competition of 2007/2008, the production of the Gripen E for Switzerland is now entirely in Sweden. That assembly of the new jets in Switzerland was once a condition is previously held in the Embassy nowhere. All it means is: "A final assembly in Switzerland has been tested, but not justifiable rejected as economically. An important reason for the waiver of a final assembly in Switzerland are the low production rate and the small numbers. "

Exactly this point was questioned during the evaluation by the losing party, as the "Basler Zeitung" white. However, they were allowed Armasuisse make an offer that included an assembly in the country of origin and thus a significantly lower rate would have helped. "Alternatively," sees the Bundesrat before now, "that cooperates with a core team of Air Force and RUAG employees the manufacturer Saab to the final assembly and so to a large extent the know-how can build, which had acquired it at a final assembly in Switzerland . "on the subject of financial risk, it means that the Swedish government took the Gripen e offers binding in a clearly defined implementation at a fixed price. "In order for the Swedish government bears the financial risk for the Gripen E." why would the financial risk (for Switzerland) judged to be small.

unclear timetable
By contrast, the Federal judges the 'deadlines risk "as a medium. "On the one hand, delays in developing the Gripen not be excluded." On the other hand, the approval of the Swedish Gripen program located in the political process. This could not be ruled out that greater changes in schedule, expected the Federal Council. The Air Force plane to establish the operational readiness gradually. Until all the contemplated skills for air combat, reconnaissance and combat ground targets are available, it will take until the year 2024th

It also covers operating costs in the draft: CHF 102 million per year (6 million francs for the operation of real estate included). The operating costs per hour are not explicitly mentioned in the submission. This amount, considering the listed annual costs for personnel (24 million), maintenance (51 million) and fuel (21 million), more so than Saab presented journalists in previous presentations. The calculation of operating costs per hour determines the Switzerland a flight operating time of 180 hours per year basis. At 22 Gripen, this results in a cost of 24'242 CHF per flight hour. Saab announced during a presentation in Sweden at a price of less than CHF 10,000. Here still gives explanation needed.

(Basler newspaper)

 

[raktaka]

Then please tell me what it is and I will be grateful.

How is that relevant ?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Swedish Gripen E allegedly more expensive than Swiss
By: Monica Kleja
Published December 11, 2012 13:3875 Comments
Sweden have to pay 15-30 percent more for new Gripen E compared with Switzerland, says Swiss telsion. Today Tuesday the parliament vote on the purchase of the new Gripen system.

In the afternoon, after 15:30, keeps parliament a vote on the issue of Sweden should invest in renovating the Gripen system and buy 40-60 copies of the new Gripen E, or super-ja. Let the vote on Start - riksdagen.se

According to a Swiss television program Tagesschau research becomes more expensive to buy the plane for the Swedish taxpayers than the Swiss. Sweden is said to have to buy new Gripen E at a price that is 15-30 percent higher per plane, compared with the cost of taxpayers in Switzerland.

The price per plane to Switzerland is fixed and land of 100 million Swiss francs, or 745 million Swedish kronor for the Gripen E-flat, according Tagesschau.

Sweden, however, is said to buy the plane for between 115 and 130 million Swiss francs (860-970 million) per plane. The number varies depending on the equipment Sweden decide to buy the plane.

According Tagesschau be Defense Minister Karin Enstrom has confirmed that Sweden pays more per plane.

She is reported to have declared: "This price includes the development costs and the building of a new production chain" and that Swedish cooperation with Switzerland will be beneficial for Sweden in the long term.

Karin Enstrom's press secretary, Henrik Hedberg back shows that the defense minister ruled on the unit price per plane:

We have neither the schweiska or Swedish media commented on the price per plane, but we have been clear that if the running costs are included, the cost in Sweden to three billion per year, he says.

Karin Enstrom been in contact with Tagesschau is completely accurate, he says.

Switzerland plans to buy 22 aircraft, while the Swedish government proposes buying 40-60 plan. While advocates Supreme Commander Sverker Goranson Sweden to acquire the Gripen E fleet of 60 planes.

Swedish Defence Materiel Administration is currently negotiating with Saab about the price of the Swedish aircraft. Martin Kruse, project manager for the Gripen, at the FMV, told Ny Teknik that negotiations are planned to be completed during the first half of 2013. Before that he can not comment on the price.

A clear majority in parliament is expected to vote this afternoon through the historic decision. Both the Alliance government and the Social Democrats and the Sweden Democrats have announced that they intend to vote yes.

The Social Democrats, however, want to invest 300 million more per year for ten years. This is in addition to the increase in appropriations of 300 million per year for two years and 200 million per year in eight years, as the government suggests.

By: Monica Kleja
Mail reporter




Wednesday, September 26, 2012 15:31
Switzerland will have converted Occasions Gripen
News The draft Federal Council dispatch on the procurement of Gripen contains some surprises.

About 24,000 francs per flight hour: How much does the Gripen E, as can be calculated from a message draft of the Bundesrat to the Gripen procurement. (Photo: Keystone)
13
Me Gafner


The officially unpublished Federal Council dispatch on buying a new fighter aircraft carries political dynamite. In well 50-page paper that the "Basler Zeitung" in draft, the Bundesrat, was suddenly no longer "new" or "newly developed" aircraft, but only of a "development of the proven Gripen A and C".This description is consistent with the wording of the Swedish Government. This holds in its recent draft state budget 2013 which, Sweden wants 40 to 60 Gripen E "develop and rebuild," if Switzerland or another country at least 20 Gripen E buy. As a basis for the reconstruction (Swedish: Ombyggnad) are "old" Jets version Gripen C. Pro new Gripen E to use an old Gripen C.

Like new?
In design is marked "internal", the Federal Council writes in the chapter "criteria": "The aircraft will be procured and operated in the same hardware and software version, as they will be in the air force of the producing country in use . "Thus, previous data of Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer, army chief André Blattmann, Luftwaffe chief Markus Gygax and Armasuisse project Jürg Weber prove imprecise, which Switzerland will receive a new combat aircraft from Sweden.

The sub-committee of the National Council under the presidency of SVP National Thomas Hurter is still considered in its investigation report on the controversial jet purchase on August 20, 2012 of the Switzerland get new aircraft. The Commission, considering after surveys of various stakeholders on page 26 of its report that: "In particular, the representatives of the Air Force have pointed to the fact that the Gripen C / D can not be upgraded in a Gripen E / F. The Gripen E / F must be developed from scratch. "Based on the statements of the VBS representatives the subcommission ours look great majority also as a new aircraft.

Costs of 3.346 billion
From the message with date of 6 September 2012, shows that the Gripen project, the bottom line is more expensive than previously stated. For a fixed price of 3.126 billion francs for the purchase of 22 Gripen E 220 million Swiss francs will be added - for the planned sale of eleven Gripen C / D over five years.The cost of the five-year operation of this Mietjets not included, is thus given a total package price of 3.346 billion francs.

The draft procurement Embassy cleans up well with the partially existing idea that the Gripen E is suitable militia. "For use only professional military pilots come and no militia pilots questioned," is clearly on page 30 of the paper. And later we read that are provided for operating the Gripen 156 FTEs. These are made up of 41 professional military pilots, six professional officers "for the basic skills aerial reconnaissance and combat ground targets", three professional NCOs for training and 106 civilian agencies for ground staff.

Assembly takes place in Sweden
Looking up in the Gripen project has largely of government-owned defense contractor RUAG Aviation must be concluded from the draft. Contrary to the Offer conditions, which Switzerland has provided the three-party EADS, Dassault and Saab in competition of 2007/2008, the production of the Gripen E for Switzerland is now entirely in Sweden. That assembly of the new jets in Switzerland was once a condition is previously held in the Embassy nowhere. All it means is: "A final assembly in Switzerland has been tested, but not justifiable rejected as economically. An important reason for the waiver of a final assembly in Switzerland are the low production rate and the small numbers. "

Exactly this point was questioned during the evaluation by the losing party, as the "Basler Zeitung" white. However, they were allowed Armasuisse make an offer that included an assembly in the country of origin and thus a significantly lower rate would have helped. "Alternatively," sees the Bundesrat before now, "that cooperates with a core team of Air Force and RUAG employees the manufacturer Saab to the final assembly and so to a large extent the know-how can build, which had acquired it at a final assembly in Switzerland . "on the subject of financial risk, it means that the Swedish government took the Gripen e offers binding in a clearly defined implementation at a fixed price. "In order for the Swedish government bears the financial risk for the Gripen E." why would the financial risk (for Switzerland) judged to be small.

unclear timetable
By contrast, the Federal judges the 'deadlines risk "as a medium. "On the one hand, delays in developing the Gripen not be excluded." On the other hand, the approval of the Swedish Gripen program located in the political process. This could not be ruled out that greater changes in schedule, expected the Federal Council. The Air Force plane to establish the operational readiness gradually. Until all the contemplated skills for air combat, reconnaissance and combat ground targets are available, it will take until the year 2024th

It also covers operating costs in the draft: CHF 102 million per year (6 million francs for the operation of real estate included). The operating costs per hour are not explicitly mentioned in the submission. This amount, considering the listed annual costs for personnel (24 million), maintenance (51 million) and fuel (21 million), more so than Saab presented journalists in previous presentations. The calculation of operating costs per hour determines the Switzerland a flight operating time of 180 hours per year basis. At 22 Gripen, this results in a cost of 24'242 CHF per flight hour. Saab announced during a presentation in Sweden at a price of less than CHF 10,000. Here still gives explanation needed.

(Basler newspaper)

Apart from that one modified TD, I haven't known any E/F/NG flying or even being built.

Now keeping my personal views A part,

If they are able to give us NG or whatever they call it with weapons and training below 100 million dollars,I will be well and happy for getting rid of Migs.

 

[Dash]

How is that relevant ?

It is relevant, at least the ToT part. As that will form our basis of discussion of what Gripen possibly could bring on execution. Your proximity with HAL will help us connect the missing dots.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

What you fail to recognize is that for Good & Services IN INDIA the true value is measured in PPP. Which in India's case is 3.7 X the USD.

So in effect HAL productivity is =80976 x 3.7 = 2,99,611 $ which is not so different from Dassault.

To put it in perspective, Dassault Only manufactures around 24 Rafale per year and 12 Falcon per year. (correct me about falcon if I am wrong) i.e 36 Aircraft's per year.

Just because you cannot see something, does't mean it does not exist.

Who say that I cannot see the PPP productivity of HAL?
You said that HAL was ahead of Dassault in $ productivity, not in PPP $ productivity because normally planes are not sold in $ PPP.
And you are wrong on the planes manufactured by Dassault they manufacture 11 Rafale (soon 33) and 70 Falcon but these plane are world class aircraft developped in the company.
More Dassault System is a 100% subsidiary of Dassault providing CATIA which is used by all aerospace companies to design their planes.
Revenue €2.346 billion (2014)
Number of employees 13,345
And Dassault also holds 25% of Thales

 

[randomradio]

All it proves is that either,

1. Dassault DID NOT DO DUE DILIGENCE. ..... or

2. Dassault DID do due diligence but then decided to CON India.

HAL as partner was clearly spelled out in the RFP so common sense dictate ANYONE would first seek information from HAL regarding its overheads before calculating the final cost and submitting the proposal.

You have admitted to Dassault seeking to revising the L1 after winning the contest. A CLEAR breach of rules and norms. I don't see why that should elicit any sympathy or empathy.

Then to cover up this INCOMPETENCE and blame HAL is Cheeky.

There are two things you haven't taken into consideration.

The Dassault price for manufacturing Rafales was based on Dassault's manpower requirements but HAL's cost per hour. HAL increased the manpower requirements to 2.7 times. So French manpower costs were not the metric.

And there's an article somewhere where the HAL Chief clarifies that HAL employees are not as productive as Dassault's employees. Dassault + all contractor's total manpower requirement is 9000 for 36 aircraft per year. They all take an off in August, so they work only 11 months, so 33 aircraft/year. HAL has a DPSU culture where they higher more than necessary manpower whereas Dassault's factories are more automated hence requiring more expenditure in automation which HAL wasn't willing to do.

It is because Parrikar wants Mig-35

In fact, the flyaway cost of a Su-35 in Russia is $15M. The Mig-35 is likely around the same price.